WC: 2015 — Team Finland

[Sabane]

Your math is still off. For example, even in Sochi, when four full pairs were utilized, we didn't have a single skater in the entire team who played even twenty minutes. And I don't mean by average - no skater got past that mark in a single game. Olli Määttä got closest in the QF against Russia, when he clocked a TOI of 19:54 over 24 shifts.

It's like I said. In an average game your top guys play 17-18 minutes, pairs 2-3 play around 15 minutes and the bottom pair plays roughly 12-13 minutes. I have the stats to back it up and there's also NO indicator whatsoever that it has been harmful to the team effort, on the contrary.

Bottom line: You decided go with mutu feelings and therefore ended up with statements that have no basis in reality.

Exactly my point. Nobody gets enough ice time. If the players get fatigue, scratch them next game. And IMO it's BS to say "so many games in so little time they just can't handle it". How about NHL playoffs? They play about every second day even tougher games and a lot longer than 2 weeks.

If this 8 D-men strategy is so superior, why don't for example Canada, USA, Russia or Sweden use it?

 

[rduck1]

MTV Sport "experts" think that Salmela, Hytönen and Huhtala have locked their spots in the team, while Ristolainen, Lindell, Ohtamaa and Hartikainen have been trending down and still have much to prove... Boy am I glad that these people are nowhere near national team jobs or organisations that I support.

 

[illone84]

MTV Sport "experts" think that Salmela, Hytönen and Huhtala have locked their spots in the team, while Ristolainen, Lindell, Ohtamaa and Hartikainen have been trending down and still have much to prove... Boy am I glad that these people are nowhere near national team jobs or organisations that I support.

For anybody that thinks Ristolainen will not make the team, well, I guess Barkov shouldn't be a lock neither.

He has to prove himself

 

[FiLe]

Exactly my point. Nobody gets enough ice time. If the players get fatigue, scratch them next game.

Wait, what? Are you saying you actually prefer 25+ minutes for your top guy in one game and scratched in the next to having him play steady 17-18 minutes a game? What kind of logic is that?

If this 8 D-men strategy is so superior, why don't for example Canada, USA, Russia or Sweden use it?

Why should we care what the other countries do? It works for us. Or can you name a single instance it has actually cost a game for us?

 

[FiLe]

MTV Sport "experts" think that Salmela, Hytönen and Huhtala have locked their spots in the team, while Ristolainen, Lindell, Ohtamaa and Hartikainen have been trending down and still have much to prove... Boy am I glad that these people are nowhere near national team jobs or organisations that I support.

I wouldn't say. Remember the shock and disbelief last year when the team was released?

New management now, sure, but as my new catchphrase says, coaches can be funny like that.

 

[Sabane]

Wait, what? Are you saying you actually prefer 25+ minutes for your top guy in one game and scratched in the next to having him play steady 17-18 minutes a game? What kind of logic is that?

Why should we care what the other countries do? It works for us. Or can you name a single instance it has actually cost a game for us?

No, I think our top D-men are fit enough to play +23min without a risk of a scratch. Like they have done all season along. These games ain't so much faster/tougher than KHL/NHL regular season.

 

[FiLe]

No, I think our top D-men are fit enough to play +23min without a risk of a scratch. Like they have done all season along. These games ain't so much faster/tougher than KHL/NHL regular season.

Still waiting for you to give a real life example of icing four pairs being disadvantageous to us. Thus far all we've got from you are some lame theoretical examples - and no one else seems to be complaining in the first place.

 

[Sabane]

Still waiting for you to give a real life example of icing four pairs being disadvantageous to us. Thus far all we've got from you are some lame theoretical examples - and no one else seems to be complaining in the first place.

And I'm waiting for you to give the answer "what's optimal amount of D-men/forwards". And can you give me any real life examples that 8 D-men is better than 6 D-men (like every other hockey team)?

Like I've said I think it is disadvantage for us because our "top dogs" don't get enough ice time. I'd like to see RR55/Hietanen play a lot more than Jaakola/Salmela etc. And I mean I'd rather see them play +20min than 17min like normal 3rd pair D-men.

 

[FiLe]

And I'm waiting for you to give the answer "what's optimal amount of D-men/forwards". And can you give me any real life examples that 8 D-men is better than 6 D-men (like every other hockey team)?

I didn't answer this question because I thought the answer is obvious: The optimal amount is as much as the rules allow one to dress - because your opponent sure as heck dresses as many. In the NHL, the amount is 18+2 so no one deviates from the 12F/6D formula. They don't run three pairs because it's sporting, they run that many because the rules don't allow them to run more.

IIHF events allow 20+2, and some elect to run 13F/7D, others 12F/8D. The difference is that some prefer to have an extra guy in the reserve in case they have to mix lineups, others rather risk the injury and run four full units. It's a matter of preference, nothing more.

By the way, if the rules allowed 21 or 22 skaters, every damn participant would run four full units in that case. And if they allowed 25+3, you'd see five full units and two goalies dressed as extras.

Like I've said I think it is disadvantage for us because our "top dogs" don't get enough ice time.

What metric do you use to determine what is "enough"?

 

[Sabane]

I didn't answer this question because I thought the answer is obvious: The optimal amount is as much as the rules allow one to dress - because your opponent sure as heck dresses as many. In the NHL, the amount is 18+2 so no one deviates from the 12F/6D formula. They don't run three pairs because it's sporting, they run that many because the rules don't allow them to run more.

IIHF events allow 20+2, and some elect to run 13F/7D, others 12F/8D. The difference is that some prefer to have an extra guy in the reserve in case they have to mix lineups, others rather risk the injury and run four full units. It's a matter of preference, nothing more.

By the way, if the rules allowed 21 or 22 skaters, every damn participant full run four full units in that case.

What metric do you use to determine what is "enough"?

So you really mean if the rules would allowe 22 D-men on team, Finland would have Jan Latvala, Lauri Taipalus and Arto Laatikainen kind of guys there playing and taking ice time from Hietanen & Ristolainen? I highly doubt it.... "Enough" for me is about the time they're used to play. 1st pair ~23-25min, 2nd pair ~18-20min and 3rd pair ~15-17min.

If roster rules allowes us to take 22 skaters of course we would take 22 guys but I don't see reason why we would have to give all of the guys time to play. We have 2 goalies also but it doesn't mean we would have to play the other one if the fist one plays OK.

 

[rduck1]

So you really mean if the rules would allowe 22 D-men on team, Finland would have Jan Latvala, Lauri Taipalus and Arto Laatikainen kind of guys there playing and taking ice time from Hietanen & Ristolainen? I highly doubt it.... "Enough" for me is about the time they're used to play. 1st pair ~23-25min, 2nd pair ~18-20min and 3rd pair ~15-17min.

If roster rules allowes us to take 22 skaters of course we would take 22 guys but I don't see reason why we would have to give all of the guys time to play. We have 2 goalies also but it doesn't mean we would have to play the other one if the fist one plays OK.

You don't have to stretch it to some absurd number. Six and eight are the numbers we are discussing. In my opinion the bottom pairing doesn't really need to play more than 6-10 minutes, and the third one doesn't need much more. First and second pairing would play 15-20 or more if there are many power-plays, and in case the situation calls for it, the top guys would get more time as the game progresses as well. My point is that playing with eight just affords an extra bit of versatility and leeway that could become a deciding factor in a game. On the other hand I doubt that playing 3-5 minutes less than usual will mess with a pro's flow so much that they can't perform decently.

Anyhow, I think we've reached the point of agree to disagree in this debate. It doesn't seem either side will be swayed and it seems unlikely that anything more of value will come of this. Suffice to say that both numbers are used for solid reasons, and both viewpoint are quite valid in the context of modern hockey.

 

[QnebO]

Mertsi whining about refs.. its good that they dont give weak powerplays from little torikokoukses ffs

 

[FiLe]

Maikkari's final D selection for the games was pretty hilarious.

Lepistö - Hietanen
Salmela - Lajunen
Kukkonen - Lindell
Jaakola - Mäntylä

Shouldn't probably scoff at it because it'll come back and bite me in the backside, but lord, I hope not.


In other news, Immonen and Wirtanen potentially breaking down would at least make the centre selections extremely easy. Kontiola - Barkov - Kemppainen - Hytönen.

 

[JJTT]

Wirtanen has broken finger, so his season is done.

Immonen has some problems with his back.

http://www.suomikiekko.com/2015/04/...la-sormi-poikki-selkaongelmia-ja-vanha-vamma/

 

[FiLe]

Wirtanen has broken finger, so his season is done.

Immonen has some problems with his back.

Well, this means that the foursome I just mentioned will all feature in the final team. Whether they'll all be playing or not will depend on if Immonen can play.

If he can't, it'll be interesting to see where KJ will find an extra centre if need be. Jokinen can play down the middle if need be, so I guess that enables them to play loose and pick another winger, but otherwise their options will run thin unless we get someone from overseas. Or, hmm... one who has recently played is Jani Lajunen, but he has not featured in the EHT this season, so that might make him a long shot.

 

[rduck1]

I think there are enough half-centers in the roster to make an injury substitute not completely necessary. If one has to be picked, then maybe Koskiranta if he's not too upset about not being called up before. If it seems like that a player from the STL-MIN series will become available, then that would obviously be a solution as well. Another player who has played recently is 2011 SM-Liiga scoring race winner Perttu Lindgren(I know ), who had a good season with Swiss champion HC Davos. He actually was the scoring leader for his team in the playoffs, and third overall.

 

[Mestaruus]

This makes me think that Kiiskinen is out of the picture as well (on the bottom of the page, last thing he says):
http://yle.fi/urheilu/vaxjon_suomal...jokaisen_pikkupojan_unelma/7953572?origin=rss

He says he has small injuries. Still small chance that he'd join but if the guy himself mentions small injuries and speaks like that I don't see him joining the team.

If it seems like that a player from the STL-MIN series will become available, then that would obviously be a solution as well.

I just read that Lehterä is having small injury. Outside of the STL lineup for now. With our luck STL will get eliminated and Lehterä is indeed injured .

 

[rduck1]

Yeah, those statements pretty much confirm that he wasn't really even an option at this point. Otherwise he would definitely be clear on what intentions the NT has for him.

 

[JJTT]

I just read that Lehterä is having small injury. Outside of the STL lineup for now. With our luck STL will get eliminated and Lehterä is indeed injured .

Päälikkö to the rescue.

 

[rduck1]

Päälikkö to the rescue.

Haha! Then they also need to pick Tommi Jokinen from SaiPa and put together an utterly ineffective Jokinen-Jokinen-Jokinen line. Just for the lols. And also find some random center-Pesonen for the Pesonen-Pesonen-Pesonen line. We could also dare Canada to pick all the Sutters and Staals, and Sweden to pick a whole team of Erikssons. Then have Kummola lobby the IIHF to hand out group-stage points for namesakes on the team.

Yes, I am having fun.

 

[FiLe]

I think there are enough half-centers in the roster to make an injury substitute not completely necessary. If one has to be picked, then maybe Koskiranta if he's not too upset about not being called up before.

They actually reported that Koskiranta declined rather than was not called up. So yeah, I guess that puts him out of the question. Otherwise I would have mentioned him.

I don't think even the half-center complement is all that great. Jokinen is first choice, and Komarov can play C, but he's questionable too ATM. Then there's Ruutu, but he's more of a winger too. They used Huhtala in this game, but I think he was more of an emergency option than anything.

Bottom line, I'd be content if Komarov isn't out, since he can sub in along Juice if need be, but if he isn't... things ARE going to get interesting. I'd say Lajunen is a possibility in that case.


And in a weird case yeah, Da Chief may actually suddenly become relevant if the Blues end up getting eliminated. If he agrees to play 4C that is.

 

[Mestaruus]

And in a weird case yeah, Da Chief may actually suddenly become relevant if the Blues end up getting eliminated. If he agrees to play 4C that is.

Yeah. He must be bummed for not getting any minutes in STL. Maybe he wants to come. Perhaps Filppula has interest and Kemppainen as 4C?

 

[FiLe]

Perhaps Filppula has interest and Kemppainen as 4C?

Filppula wouldn't rob a spot from a standing centre, since he'd be a top-six winger in case everyone is healthy (Filppula-Barkov-Jokinen). But with him, they wouldn't need an extra C.

 

[Mestaruus]

Filppula wouldn't rob a spot from a standing centre, since he'd be a top-six winger in case everyone is healthy (Filppula-Barkov-Jokinen). But with him, they wouldn't need an extra C.

Yeah, that's an option as well. I think I also linked him as a winger yesterday in my dream line up and we do need someone offensively creative, other than JJ along with Barkov. JJ should go with Kontiola-Aaltonen if Konna has to be in the line up. Tuomo belongs in bottom-6/grinder slot. I even rather have Hartikainen in top-6 than Tuomo.

 

[FiLe]

Tuomo belongs in bottom-6/grinder slot. I even rather have Hartikainen in top-6 than Tuomo

Did you watch these preliminary games? Ruutu was actually a solid complementary piece to Konna and JMA, forming pretty much our most consistent line. I think with our current roster there's room for both Härski and Rudy in top-six, but if there's only a slot for one, no way Hartikainen takes preference based on what we've seen.