Speculation: 2014 Offseason - Roster Building / Trade Speculation Thread

[Holocene]

ROR is not a clear cut upgrade over Stepan, it's lateral. It does not improve an area of need. Trading Staal for ROR is not comparable since we actually have a top 10 defensemen in McDonagh. We do not have a top 10 center and ROR is not a top ten center. We need both ROR and Stepan for it to actually be an upgrade offensively.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

Bergerons a much better skater imho.

that's about the only difference.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Bergerons a much better skater imho.

ROR is more physical and has a better shot, though.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

Lundsanity30 ur my new best friend on this forum.. everyone doesnt seem to understand that center depth u have above it the goal... most teams never get anywhere near that depth and we have a chance by trading staal. but everyone else just wants to trade half the team for spezza or Thornton or both... *facepalm*

Having ROR, Spezza, Brassard, and Moore isn't good enough center depth for you?

I already showed how to achieve that without "trading half the team."

Stepan + Klein for ROR

Nash for Spezza

Make the lines however you want them:

Kreider, Spezza, St. Louis, ROR, Zuccarello, Brassard are your top 6 forwards to work with.

That's not good enough?

if you trade staal u have to change us the dpairs
Mcdonagh-stralman
allen-Girardi
Moore-Klein

i would have moore ahead of allen but girardi and moore were turnover machines on the pp together so i opted for allen

And that blue line looks absolutely terrible compared to the one that just went to the SCF.

Look at them:


McDonagh Girardi
Staal Stralman
Moore Klein

vs

McDonagh Stralman
Allen Girardi
Moore Klein


This is also ASSUMING that Stralman will be re-signed which is not a guarantee yet.
It would be very dangerous to trade Staal without knowing Stralsy is back in the fold.

You could end up with

McDonagh Girardi
Moore Klein
_____ _______

as your blue line.



Finally, you're ignoring or underestimating the impact of chemistry.

a) We know that McDonagh Girardi Staal Stralman WORKS. It took us to the SCF. Those four have been a big part of our success the last couple years. They know eachother. The pairings are familiar. They WORK.

b) You're underestimating the positive impact that Marc Staal has on Anton Stralman's game. Stralman was kind of a nobody before he found his niche here in NY playing next to Staal. Who knows, but maybe Stralman doesn't look so great without Staal next to him. It's a big risk to take and one that isn't worth it when you can improve the team without messing with a top-4 D that not only WORKS, but is envied by teams around the league. Do you know how many teams would LOVE to have a top-4 with those 4 players? And you just want to give that up so we can keep the almighty Derek Stepan who was physically dominated by the Kings centers in the Final? The Derek Stepan who won 42% of his faceoffs in the playoffs. Forget center depth...Might as well put him on the wing with those numbers!

 

[NewLife]

Of the centres that is rumoured to be available, ROR is the only one I have interest for. We would be set up with a nice centre core for years to come, albeit with lack of a "true elite #1" a very good 1-2-3 punch for three scoring lines and defensive awareness down the middle.

Staal as a trade bait makes a lot of sense. Colorado could do great with a Staal-Johnson pairing.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

ROR is not a clear cut upgrade over Stepan, it's lateral. It does not improve an area of need. Trading Staal for ROR is not comparable since we actually have a top 10 defensemen in McDonagh. We do not have a top 10 center and ROR is not a top ten center. We need both ROR and Stepan for it to actually be an upgrade offensively.

I strongly disagree.

ROR produces more points than Stepan.

ROR has a much better shot and scores more goals than Stepan.

ROR skates better than Stepan.

ROR is more physically engaged and grittier than Stepan.

ROR is a year younger than Stepan.

ROR leads the league in takeaways (a lot more than Stepan).

ROR took ONE minor penalty all season (a lot less than Stepan).


That's not a clear-cut upgrade?

Of course it is.

And re: Staal, please see my previous post (should be right above this one). Upsetting our top-4 that not only WORKS (and got us to the ECF and SCF in 2/3 years) but is envied by teams around the league is simply too risky, especially without knowing if Stralman will even be re-signed.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Having ROR, Spezza, Brassard, and Moore isn't good enough center depth for you?

I already showed how to achieve that without "trading half the team."

Stepan + Klein for ROR

Nash for Spezza

Make the lines however you want them:

Kreider, Spezza, St. Louis, ROR, Zuccarello, Brassard are your top 6 forwards to work with.

That's not good enough?




And that blue line looks absolutely terrible compared to the one that just went to the SCF.

Look at them:


McDonagh Girardi
Staal Stralman
Moore Klein

vs

McDonagh Stralman
Allen Girardi
Moore Klein


This is also ASSUMING that Stralman will be re-signed which is not a guarantee yet.
It would be very dangerous to trade Staal without knowing Stralsy is back in the fold.

You could end up with

McDonagh Girardi
Moore Klein
_____ _______

as your blue line.



Finally, you're ignoring or underestimating the impact of chemistry.

a) We know that McDonagh Girardi Staal Stralman WORKS. It took us to the SCF. Those four have been a big part of our success the last couple years. They know eachother. The pairings are familiar. They WORK.

b) You're underestimating the positive impact that Marc Staal has on Anton Stralman's game. Stralman was kind of a nobody before he found his niche here in NY playing next to Staal. Who knows, but maybe Stralman doesn't look so great without Staal next to him. It's a big risk to take and one that isn't worth it when you can improve the team without messing with a top-4 D that not only WORKS, but is envied by teams around the league. Do you know how many teams would LOVE to have a top-4 with those 4 players? And you just want to give that up so we can keep the almighty Derek Stepan who was physically dominated by the Kings centers in the Final? The Derek Stepan who won 42% of his faceoffs in the playoffs. Forget center depth...Might as well put him on the wing with those numbers!

none of your trades would work... colorado doesnt need a center thats why stastny or ROR is expendible and ottawa is rebuilding nash isnt going to waive his nmc from a SCF team to a non playoff team.
and according to your trades we move klein and stralman is a IF

so your d pairs look like
Mcdonagh-girardi
Staal-XXX
Moore-XXX

we have no Right handed Dmen in the system to bring up wed have to sign all new guys unless u want to make mcilrath jump up and play top 4 minutes. trading staal makes sense because of the depth at lhd in the system.

theyre just as bad as the ones i proposed and for all the people that say stralman was a biproduct of staals play go back and watch the games staal relyed alot on stralman after the pittsburgh series and even before that and throughout the season staal needed stralmans skating and puck moving ability(That fit in better in AVs system) to move the puck out of the zone.

and as far as your whole chemistry is super duper important sentence Girardi and Staal used to be partners and then staal got hurt and now girardi has a new left hand man and i dont think hes looked back since. Chemistry can be made between two players over time.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

Stepan is a two-way center as well. It might be an upgrade at that position, but I don't think the team would really be any better. The point is to add to our center core. Replace Richards. Not ship Richards AND another center out. We'd go into next season with our top 2 centers gone, ROR would be #1C, Brassard would have more responsibility as the #2C...then who plays? #3C

We DO lose center depth by not replacing Richards. I'd rather have ROR / Stepan / Brassard / D.Moore down the middle and

ROR
Stepan
Brassard
D.Moore

McDonagh-Girardi
_____-Stralman
J.Moore-Klein

---


ROR
Brassard
______
D.Moore

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Stralman
J.Moore-Klein

The first scenario looks undoubtedly better IMO. Put Klein next to Stralman (yes I know they're both RH, yada yada), give Allen/Diaz a look. Sather may have to choose between Staal and Stralman anyway, use him to get ROR/Spezza.

Idk, personally, I could not resist a one-two punch of Ryan O-Reilly / Derek Stepan.

I already remedied those issues though:

Stepan and Klein for ROR.
Nash for Spezza

ROR plays LW as well and can easily be stacked on the first line with Spezza and St. Louis, but if you want to see center depth:

Kreider Spezza St. Louis
Hagelin O'Reilly Zuccarello
Pouliot Brassard ________ (Miller/Kristo/Haggerty/Fast/etc)
Carcillo Moore Dorsett

McDonagh Girardi
Staal Stralman
Moore _______ (McIlrath/Allen/cheap veteran UFA/etc)

Lundqvist
Talbot


I, on the other hand, prefer the stacked version:

O'Reilly Spezza St. Louis
Kreider Brassard Zuccarello
Hagelin _______ Pouliot
Carcillo Moore Dorsett


where the _______ is filled by signing one of [Steve Ott, Derek Roy, David Legwand] or filled internally by J.T. Miller or Oscar Lindberg.

I think that's a supremely balanced lineup with incredible depth and there's no issues with the defense as it's the same except a rookie or cheap veteran FA filling the 3rd RD spot where Klein was.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

ROR isn't that much better of an upgrade over Stepan because then Brassard becomes the #2 center, and no clue who becomes the #3 or even #4.. that's the problem with trading Stepan for him. and the Rangers are not trading Nash for Spezza.

 

[aufheben]

Having ROR, Spezza, Brassard, and Moore isn't good enough center depth for you?

I already showed how to achieve that without "trading half the team."

Stepan + Klein for ROR

Nash for Spezza

Make the lines however you want them:

Kreider, Spezza, St. Louis, ROR, Zuccarello, Brassard are your top 6 forwards to work with.

That's not good enough?

Of course it is, but that's completely unrealistic. Nash isn't going anywhere. Colorado would lol at that deal. Our defense may not be in tact next season anyway, might as well make the most of it. That's a pipedream, not a solution.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Moving Stepan for ROR is dumb and pointless

 

[hi]

The Avs don't want a center in return for O'Reilly The reason he played LW last season was because they have too many centers. Duchene and MacKinnon for the next who knows how many years. They need help on defense.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Moving Stepan for ROR is dumb and pointless

Rashida Jones agrees^^ lol

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

The Avs don't want a center in return for O'Reilly The reason he played LW last season was because they have too many centers. Duchene and MacKinnon for the next who knows how many years. They need help on defense.

Yup.. They have no need for Stepan who wouldn't even be their 3rd best center (if they re sign stastny).

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

none of your trades would work... colorado doesnt need a center thats why stastny or ROR is expendible and ottawa is rebuilding nash isnt going to waive his nmc from a SCF team to a non playoff team.
and according to your trades we move klein and stralman is a IF

so your d pairs look like
Mcdonagh-girardi
Staal-XXX
Moore-XXX

we have no Right handed Dmen in the system to bring up wed have to sign all new guys unless u want to make mcilrath jump up and play top 4 minutes. trading staal makes sense because of the depth at lhd in the system.

theyre just as bad as the ones i proposed and for all the people that say stralman was a biproduct of staals play go back and watch the games staal relyed alot on stralman after the pittsburgh series and even before that and throughout the season staal needed stralmans skating and puck moving ability(That fit in better in AVs system) to move the puck out of the zone.

and as far as your whole chemistry is super duper important sentence Girardi and Staal used to be partners and then staal got hurt and now girardi has a new left hand man and i dont think hes looked back since. Chemistry can be made between two players over time.

You're stating the obvious.

My point was that you can't just run and trade Marc Staal without knowing that Stralman is re-signed yet.

You can, however, make the trade(s) I suggested because it has nothing to do with our blue line. The trades would be made assuming Stralman is in the fold, and allocating ~4+ million in cap-space for his spot. If he hits the market and doesn't re-sign here, then we have the 4+ million in space to sign a replacement. Dan Boyle is a RHD and wants to play for a contender. He'd very likely accept a 1 year deal at 4 million or less to do so.

The point was simply to not start messing with a top-4 that could lose one of its players, and then you've just traded from a weakness and made a bigger hole. Do you not get what I'm saying? That's all.

I don't think you should even if you do know he'll be back, because there's simply nothing wrong with the top-4. Don't fix what isn't broken. You don't rob Peter to pay Paul. If center depth is your goal, there are other ways to achieve that without trading away your 2nd best defender. For example, we just made it to the SCF without Nash producing a damn thing. There's 7.8 million reasons to trade HIM in an effort to improve center depth before you pluck out Marc Staal who WAS a productive and important player in the road to the SCF. There's the Richards buy out which saves almost 7 million on its own. Get creative. There are plenty of options and ways to improve our center depth without diminishing one of our supreme strengths (our top-4).

 

[aufheben]

Another thing, if ROR is such a big upgrade over Stepan, why would Colorado do that deal?

You have to look at both teams' needs: Colorado has a ton of centers, they need a defenseman like Staal more than anything. Stepan/ROR makes no sense for them.

Also, Nash isn't going anywhere.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

Moving Stepan for ROR is dumb and pointless

You clearly haven't watched many Avs games. ROR is a clear-cut upgrade over Derek Stepan. I'm not going to list the many reasons why. It should be obvious to anyone who has watched the two on a regular basis (it's my feeling that most who are against it and don't think it's an upgrade simply haven't seen enough of ROR and are being homers and thinking our players are the best)

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

Another thing, if ROR is such a big upgrade over Stepan, why would Colorado do that deal?

Exactly. Normally, they WOULDN'T.

The only reason he's remotely available is because of this ****show contract / arbitration situation.

Go ask Avs fans if they'd trade ROR for Stepan straight up prior to this situation. Go ask if they'd even do Stepan + Klein for ROR prior to this situation.

He is a much better overall player than Stepan. He is much more dynamic.

I love Stepan, but he's one-dimensional. He's a passer. His shot is weak. His skating is weak. He's not physical. He's a nice player, but ROR has him beat in every aspect of the game. I'm not going to list everything again but it's been repeated in this thread plenty.

 

[aufheben]

Even if they want to trade ROR, that doesn't change what they'd want in return. Staal for ROR makes sense for both teams. Stepan for ROR doesn't make sense for either team.

And Nash isn't going anywhere, so that "stacked" lineup isn't coming to fruition. We need to ADD centers, not swap them. The former is clearly better IMO:

ROR
Stepan
Brassard
D.Moore

McDonagh-Girardi
_____-Stralman
J.Moore-Klein

---


ROR
Brassard
______
D.Moore

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Stralman
J.Moore-Klein

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

You're stating the obvious.

My point was that you can't just run and trade Marc Staal without knowing that Stralman is re-signed yet.

You can, however, make the trade(s) I suggested because it has nothing to do with our blue line. The trades would be made assuming Stralman is in the fold, and allocating ~4+ million in cap-space for his spot. If he hits the market and doesn't re-sign here, then we have the 4+ million in space to sign a replacement. Dan Boyle is a RHD and wants to play for a contender. He'd very likely accept a 1 year deal at 4 million or less to do so.

The point was simply to not start messing with a top-4 that could lose one of its players, and then you've just traded from a weakness and made a bigger hole. Do you not get what I'm saying? That's all.

I don't think you should even if you do know he'll be back, because there's simply nothing wrong with the top-4. Don't fix what isn't broken. You don't rob Peter to pay Paul. If center depth is your goal, there are other ways to achieve that without trading away your 2nd best defender. For example, we just made it to the SCF without Nash producing a damn thing. There's 7.8 million reasons to trade HIM in an effort to improve center depth before you pluck out Marc Staal who WAS a productive and important player in the road to the SCF. There's the Richards buy out which saves almost 7 million on its own. Get creative. There are plenty of options and ways to improve our center depth without diminishing one of our supreme strengths (our top-4).

we have to chose at one point or another staal or stralman and we have depth at the LD position in the organization. of course we could trade moore and play allen until Skjei is ready but Skyjei is comming whether u like it or not (lol) and theres only three spots on the left side and we all know mcdonagh have one locked up. so eventually in the future the choice comes down to Moore Staal Allen Bodie and Skjei on the left. on the right side the three spots are going to be between klein stralman girardi and mcilrath. u c we have a wealth of depth on the left side making someone or someones expendible.

trading staal now would just be selling as high as possible.
staal isnt going to over take mcdonaghs spot and he just came off a SCF run fully heathly for a long time and he was crucial in shuting down one of the best players in the world Evgeni Malkin. the price is at a high right now on staal. i believe u said it urself hes one of the best 2nd pairing d men in the league and we all kno he can be a first pair guy cuz weve seen it. selling him high now is just the economical thing to do imo

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

Another thing, if ROR is such a big upgrade over Stepan, why would Colorado do that deal?

You have to look at both teams' needs: Colorado has a ton of centers, they need a defenseman like Staal more than anything. Stepan/ROR makes no sense for them.

Also, Nash isn't going anywhere.

I understand your point and it's a valid one about Colorado's needs. However, again, I don't believe that this is going to be solely about Colorado's wants and needs. They are not in the driver's seat of this situation. They are the ones at risk of losing a 1C to an offersheet and getting draft picks in return (which are great, but don't really help their current cause / effort of improving their team NOW and winning NOW). They are the ones who let this situation get out of hand for the second time. They're at risk of having a disgruntled player in the locker room.

They can either take the best trade offer they get, or roll the dice and a) hope he doesn't sign ANOTHER offer sheet and b) hope the arbiter awards in their favor (in which event, ROR is still unhappy with management and the contract process and then likely bolts in a year as a UFA that they will then lose for absolutely nothing.)

__________________________________________________

"Nash isn't going anywhere" is your opinion. And you're probably right, but I think he should be traded, and not because I don't think he'll bounce back. I think you're right in that he WILL bounce back. However, he's only bouncing back to what he was previously: a 25-30 goal, 55-65 point player. That's not worth 7.8 million a year going forward. It just isn't. He was given a huge contract because he was the entire CBJ franchise. It was expected that because he was so good at age 22, he'd be insane by the time he was 28. Well he's 28 and he hasn't gotten any better, in fact, he's declined.

I don't want Nash traded because he had one of the worst and unluckiest cold streaks of his career. I want him traded because even when he bounces back, he's not worth 7.8 million to us. He might be to another team that can utilize him better or that needs to build around him in a different way. Who knows. I just don't think he's worth it. But that's another whole discussion.

 

[aufheben]

Nash not going anywhere is an opinion, but it's a logical one.

1) Why would Ottawa want him?

2) Why would Sather be looking to trade him?

3) He has an enormous cap hit

4) Last but not least, he has a NMC.

Nash for Spezza ain't happening. I want Nash to be traded too, but I realize how unrealistic it is. They gonna trade a 23 year old center because he's an RFA, in a deal for another 23 year old center who will be an RFA next year? If Ryan O'Reilly is on the block, you don't think another team could propose a more desirable deal for them?

Staal fits their needs, ROR fits ours. We need ANOTHER center, not a swap.

Of course Spezza / O'Reilly / Brassard / D. Moore is insane center depth, but it's a pipedream if I've ever seen one.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

we have to chose at one point or another staal or stralman and we have depth at the LD position in the organization. of course we could trade moore and play allen until Skjei is ready but Skyjei is comming whether u like it or not (lol) and theres only three spots on the left side and we all know mcdonagh have one locked up. so eventually in the future the choice comes down to Moore Staal Allen Bodie and Skjei on the left. on the right side the three spots are going to be between klein stralman girardi and mcilrath. u c we have a wealth of depth on the left side making someone or someones expendible.

trading staal now would just be selling as high as possible.
staal isnt going to over take mcdonaghs spot and he just came off a SCF run fully heathly for a long time and he was crucial in shuting down one of the best players in the world Evgeni Malkin. the price is at a high right now on staal. i believe u said it urself hes one of the best 2nd pairing d men in the league and we all kno he can be a first pair guy cuz weve seen it. selling him high now is just the economical thing to do imo

First of all, it's fantasy to think that all our D-prospects are

a) going to develop and be legitimate NHL players

and

b) going to make up our entire d-core. It's like back a few years ago when people used to post future lineups of our blue line with

Staal Del Zotto
Sanguinetti Sauer
Kundratek McIlrath

1 out of 6 ain't bad?

No d-core is entirely homegrown. Most draft picks don't make it to even play 1 NHL game. Those that do are even less likely to debut with the team that drafted them.

My point?

I'm not going to worry about or even discuss 4 years from now when Mat Bodie may be ready! So much will have changed by then. It's not realistic to plan so specifically like that.


---------------


Trading Staal right now would not be selling at his highest value.

He's only got 1 year left on his deal. Teams are going to be extremely weary of trading for ANY player who can walk away for nothing at the end of the season, and ESPECIALLY so when it's a player with two (3) brothers who just joined together in Carolina. So it's not really selling high at all. In fact, Staal's value to the NY Rangers (keeping him) is higher than it is to any other team because of that fact. We'd never get full/fair value on him now.

(note: It's my personal opinion (not based on anything) that if Staal isn't traded out of NY, he will re-sign here with us long-term. However, if he is traded this offseason or during the year, I believe that he will then be a lot more likely to attempt to join his brothers in Carolina)

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

Nash not going anywhere is an opinion, but it's a logical one.

1) Why would Ottawa want him?

2) Why would Sather be looking to trade him?

3) He has an enormous cap hit

4) Last but not least, he has a NMC.

Nash for Spezza ain't happening. I want Nash to be traded too, but I realize how unrealistic it is. They gonna trade a 23 year old center because he's an RFA, in a deal for another 23 year old center who will be an RFA next year? If Ryan O'Reilly is on the block, you don't think another team could propose a more desirable deal for them?

Staal fits their needs, ROR fits ours. We need ANOTHER center, not a swap.

Of course Spezza / O'Reilly / Brassard / D. Moore is insane center depth, but it's a pipedream if I've ever seen one.

I think now, more than ever, is the offseason for Sather to get both aggressive and creative like this, so I do think it's less of a pipedream than you do.

But you do make very valid points that I cannot argue with.

Ok, let's say we trade Staal for ROR.

How can we then trade Nash (keeping in mind his NTC so it would have to be a team he'd want to go to) to recoup some of the loss we feel from losing Staal and perhaps also get a young top-9 winger?

ie: Staal for ROR

and then

Nash to DET (played for Babcock in Olympics; Babcock loves him; could be good fit on DET) for DeKeyser and Tatar if NYR retain a % of Nash's salary.

Do you think something like that could work?

Nash to SJ (to play with buddy Joe Thornton (if they keep him)) for Brent Burns? Vlasic?

Perhaps Thornton is traded to a new team and then Nash becomes an attractive target for that new team.

Just thinking out loud here.



The DET deal would have us looking something like:

Kreider O'Reilly St. Louis
Hagelin Stepan Tatar
Pouliot Brassard Zuccarello
Carcillo Moore Dorsett

McDonagh Girardi
DeKeyser Stralman
Moore Klein

Lundqvist
Talbot

not bad IMO. I could actually see DET being very interested in making that deal if NYR is able to retain a large enough % of Nash's salary. Anyone know the CBA rule on that? What's the maximum % allowed to be retained?

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

if Marc ends up in carolina just move the team to Thunderbay...