Speculation: 2014 Offseason - Roster Building / Trade Speculation Thread V

[BlueshirtBlitz]

Stralman is better, but far from SIGNIFICANTLY better.

I disagree. I think he's pretty significantly better and it's not very close.

 

[silverfish]

Okay but,

why does that have to have anything to do with Klein or Del Zotto.

People said the same thing about Carcillo joining the team, lol.

The guy I quoted said Moore-Del Zotto did more to help the team win.

We won more with Klein in the lineup.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Most of the posters who dislike Klein (-Dirty Won-, Blue Blooded) are some of the more intelligent posters here.

I don't think Klein is bad. But Stralman is SIGNIFICANTLY better and when you can get a 2nd/3rd round pick and clear out 2.9 million in cap space for a much better defenseman, it doesn't make sense not to do that.

I would absolutely move Klein for a 2nd and a 5th or something like that and use that $2.9M to sign Stralman. I don't disagree with you. I think Stralman is better than Klein.

We're talking about Klein v. Del Zotto. Del Zotto might not even be in the NHL next year. BUT...his possession numbers...are better than Klein....IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE TEAMS?

 

[Ail]

The guy I quoted said Moore-Del Zotto did more to help the team win.

We won more with Klein in the lineup.

Okay, and I'll ask you again. What makes you think that either Klein or DelZotto had anything to do with that?

Just because the team lost more with DZ doesn't mean DZ didn't do more to help them win games.

Not even agreeing with that sentiment but what you are saying is flawed.

 

[silverfish]

Did Klein make Derek Stepan produce at a near PPG pace? Did Klein make Hank's stats normalize towards his career averages?

There are 18 other players on the team that have, at the very least, just as much to do with the better record than Klein.

I have a hard time believing this team goes on the same run with DZ in the lineup over Klein. If you can provide facts that prove otherwise, then I'm all ears.

What I know for facts is this team made the SCF and played better post Del Zotto. That's straight fact. I'm not saying it was Klein's doing, at all, but I am saying that it happened.

Klein is better for this team than Del Zotto. I want to hear your side of the story because I simply can't fathom thinking the other way.

 

[Cassano]

Did Klein make Derek Stepan produce at a near PPG pace? Did Klein make Hank's stats normalize towards his career averages?

There are 18 other players on the team that have, at the very least, just as much to do with the better record than Klein.

This reminds me when Jody Shelley joined the Rangers. They went on an impeccable run down the stretch if I recall correctly. (Sadly didn't make playoffs)

 

[Ail]

I'll just leave it at, I dislike DZ and Klein equally, and I would prefer neither of them were on the team, but since Klein is I would prefer he stay on the third pair.

 

[Blue Blooded]

You posted statistics. Statistics can be manipulated and used to further your argument but are not conclusive. There's more to hockey than ****ing statistics. I'm getting tired of these possession statistics. I find them interesting and useful, but the way people are basing all of their conclusions on them is nauseating.

What did you see when you watched the games? You watched the games, I presume. What did you see? Was Del Zotto better or worse for Moore's game?

I'll post this again.

"Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital."
- Aaron Levenstein

I watch the games for enjoyment, but it is a very flawed way of evaluating players as the observational bias is huge. You literally can't watch every second of every player every game (unless you are a scout that watches games solely focusing on one player), so you catch the big moments and build a flawed picture. Both Klein and Del Zotto have had their moments of brilliance and disaster, but at the end of the day the Rangers performed better with Del Zotto on the ice and that is what counts.

Now I agree that on-ice stats aren't necessarily 100%, but the difference between Moore-Del Zotto and Moore-Klein is just too big to ignore.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

I have a hard time believing this team goes on the same run with DZ in the lineup over Klein. If you can provide facts that prove otherwise, then I'm all ears.

What I know for facts is this team made the SCF and played better post Del Zotto. That's straight fact. I'm not saying it was Klein's doing, at all, but I am saying that it happened.

Klein is better for this team than Del Zotto. I want to hear your side of the story because I simply can't fathom thinking the other way.

Dude this is spot on. Klein steadied Moore's game. You could see his confidence grow after the trade. That Moore-MDZ pair was a liability every game. Moore-Klein was not.

 

[silverfish]

Let's look at how John Moore performed with Del Zotto and Klein as partners to see if he improved with Klein.

Possession

With Moore-Del Zotto the Rangers attempted 20.80 shots for per 20 minutes, and conceded 17.78 leading to an attempt differential of +3.02 per 20 minutes -> +9.06 per 60 minutes (entire game for context).

With Moore-Klein the Rangers attempted 19.47 shots for per 20 and conceded 19.67 shots against leading to a differential of -0.22 per 20 minutes or -0.66 60 minutes.

So we created less and conceded more with Moore-Klein. Zone starts and opponents aren't an argument for the difference as Klein actually received easier zone starts than Del Zotto and the same competition (he even faced lesser forwards). If we adjust the numbers for zone starts it comes out in an even bigger favor of Del Zotto.

I think their samples are way too small for a goal-based analysis, but some aren't sold on possession numbers so let's look at the actual results in terms of goals as those are the ones that win games.

Goals

With Moore-Del Zotto the Rangers scored 0.770 goals per 20 minutes and conceded 0.533 for a differential of +0.237 per 20 minutes or +0.711 per 60 minutes.

With Moore-Klein the Rangers scored 0.605 goals per 20 minutes and conceded 0.404 for a differential of +.201 per 20 minutes or +0.603 per 60 minutes.

So Moore-Klein is a lot closer to Moore-Del Zotto in this department, yet not completely there. Considering the difference in possession numbers, the goal differential of Moore-Klein is a lot less sustainable than the differential of Moore-Del Zotto.

Conclusion

Our third pairing got significantly worse after the trade and I'd take it back in a second if I could. Klein is not worth his contract on the Rangers and should be traded.

Hold the **** up.

This is your proof for how Del Zotto - Moore is better than Klein - Moore?

And the posters arguing with you have the nerve to tell me "what about the rest of the team" when I post counter-evidence?

Wowza. HF, sometimes, I mean... wow.

 

[GAGLine]

I don't need facts. I watch the games. Klein was better for us than DZ. Klein did his job and did it well. Can he handle top 4 minutes for us? Don't know because he wasn't asked to do it, but what he was asked to do he did well.

 

[BlueshirtBlitz]

I have a hard time believing this team goes on the same run with DZ in the lineup over Klein. If you can provide facts that prove otherwise, then I'm all ears.

What I know for facts is this team made the SCF and played better post Del Zotto. That's straight fact. I'm not saying it was Klein's doing, at all, but I am saying that it happened.

Klein is better for this team than Del Zotto. I want to hear your side of the story because I simply can't fathom thinking the other way.

Klein is better for this team than DZ, absolutely, but that's because John Moore is currently awful and needed a guy who could do what Klein does in the defensive zone.


The problem with Klein is that, up until the playoffs, that's all he did. He went against subpar competition, and while he was good in the corners and good at blocking shots, he did nothing with the puck in the neutral or offensive zones.

Klein is better than DZ in the defensive zone, IMO. However, I think he's very replaceable. I would've rather kept DZ over Moore.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Hold the **** up.

This is your proof for how Del Zotto - Moore is better than Klein - Moore?

And the posters arguing with you have the nerve to tell me "what about the rest of the team" when I post counter-evidence?

Wowza. HF, sometimes, I mean... wow.

That is how they performed when they were on the ice, what else is relevant?

Or are you trying to argue that Klein's presence on the bench was what lifted the team?

 

[BlueshirtBlitz]

You guys are speaking in platitudes. He "steadied his game." He "gave him confidence." And you say "I don't need facts?" That's absolutely insane!

John Moore was/is currently a very bad defender and didn't get much better with Klein. Klein is good at blocking shots and mucking it up in the defensive zone, so Moore's inability to do anything gave him a guy who made sure the opposing team wasn't getting A+ chances. However, that's all Klein did until he was given incredibly sheltered minutes against bad players.

Stralman does what Klein does, but ALSO helps the team in the neutral and offensive zones. Klein is a decent third pairing D, and if we didn't need to resign Stralsy or Klein was making less i'd be happy. But Klein showed this season that, unless given beneficial zone starts and bad opponents, he's a bust in the neutral and offensive zones. When Stralman is very good in all 3 zones, it's simply a smart move to give Klein's 2.9 million to Stralman.

With Dorse and Klein gone, that's Stralman's contract right there. 4.5 for 5 years. Get it done.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

I watch the games for enjoyment, but it is a very flawed way of evaluating players as the observational bias is huge. You literally can't watch every second of every player every game (unless you are a scout that watches games solely focusing on one player), so you catch the big moments and build a flawed picture. Both Klein and Del Zotto have had their moments of brilliance and disaster, but at the end of the day the Rangers performed better with Del Zotto on the ice and that is what counts.

Now I agree that on-ice stats aren't necessarily 100%, but the difference between Moore-Del Zotto and Moore-Klein is just too big to ignore.

Stats are just as flawed. You can look at a boxscore and see a guy went 3-3 with 2 2Bs and you would never know that 2 of them were infield hits and his double was a bloop single that he stretched with hustle if you didn't watch the games.

Stats don't tell you the whole story. You have to use everything at your disposal. Observational bias isn't really relevant to this argument - it's just observation. Some things are just clear and don't need support from stats. Moore and DZ looked like lost puppies on the ice, and Moore-Klein looked much more comfortable and steady in their own zone. Even with your stats favoring DZ-Moore over Klein-Moore, I make that trade 10 times out of 10.

Clearly, the Rangers performed better with Klein on the ice as was posted above, their record was better. I really don't know why Klein is hated so much. I guess it's his possession statistics? Because that's all that gets posted on this board anymore. It's like the WAR thing all over again.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

You guys are speaking in platitudes. He "steadied his game." He "gave him confidence." And you say "I don't need facts?" That's absolutely insane!

John Moore was/is currently a very bad defender and didn't get much better with Klein. Klein is good at blocking shots and mucking it up in the defensive zone, so Moore's inability to do anything gave him a guy who made sure the opposing team wasn't getting A+ chances. However, that's all Klein did until he was given incredibly sheltered minutes against bad players.

Stralman does what Klein does, but ALSO helps the team in the neutral and offensive zones.

This isn't a Stralman Klein debate. It's a DZ-Klein debate.

 

[silverfish]

Klein is better for this team than DZ, absolutely, but that's because John Moore is currently awful and needed a guy who could do what Klein does in the defensive zone.


The problem with Klein is that, up until the playoffs, that's all he did. He went against subpar competition, and while he was good in the corners and good at blocking shots, he did nothing with the puck in the neutral or offensive zones.

Klein is better than DZ in the defensive zone, IMO. However, I think he's very replaceable. I would've rather kept DZ over Moore.

Maybe that's because he's a defensive d-man? He gets paid to be steady in his own zone, win the puck in the corners, and block shots. Klein doesn't get paid to put the puck in the net. He gets paid to make sure the puck doesn't go in our net. His +7 in the playoffs is a pretty good indicator that he's good at that. Of course the zone starts helped, but that comes with the territory of playing as a third-pairing.

He played against subpar competition because he was a third-pairing defenseman in the playoffs.

Klein was a very steady top-4 dman for the Predators. They had an overload of RHD, were playing Seth Jones on the left side, and they made the move for Del Zotto to clear the right side for Jones. This is turning out to be such an unimagineable steal for the Rangers. This is one of those things that should be a board wide unanimous NYR win, considering Del Zotto is now fighting for his NHL life, and Klein is going to compete for a top-4 spot.

I don't understand these arguments.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Maybe that's because he's a defensive d-man? He gets paid to be steady in his own zone, win the puck in the corners, and block shots. Klein doesn't get paid to put the puck in the net. He gets paid to make sure the puck doesn't go in our net. His +7 in the playoffs is a pretty good indicator that he's good at that. Of course the zone starts helped, but that comes with the territory of playing as a third-pairing.

He played against subpar competition because he was a third-pairing defenseman in the playoffs.

Klein was a very steady top-4 dman for the Predators. They had an overload of RHD, were playing Seth Jones on the left side, and they made the move for Del Zotto to clear the right side for Jones. This is turning out to be such an unimagineable steal for the Rangers. This is one of those things that should be a board wide unanimous NYR win, considering Del Zotto is now fighting for his NHL life, and Klein is going to compete for a top-4 spot.

I don't understand these arguments.

But....Klein's possession numbers! They suck! You don't need players that play well when the other team has the puck! Despite the fact that they'll have it 40-50% of the time...

 

[BlueshirtBlitz]

Maybe that's because he's a defensive d-man? He gets paid to be steady in his own zone, win the puck in the corners, and block shots. Klein doesn't get paid to put the puck in the net. He gets paid to make sure the puck doesn't go in our net. His +7 in the playoffs is a pretty good indicator that he's good at that. Of course the zone starts helped, but that comes with the territory of playing as a third-pairing.

He played against subpar competition because he was a third-pairing defenseman in the playoffs.

Klein was a very steady top-4 dman for the Predators. They had an overload of RHD, were playing Seth Jones on the left side, and they made the move for Del Zotto to clear the right side for Jones. This is turning out to be such an unimagineable steal for the Rangers. This is one of those things that should be a board wide unanimous NYR win, considering Del Zotto is now fighting for his NHL life, and Klein is going to compete for a top-4 spot.

I don't understand these arguments.

Unimaginable steal? You can get a guy who goes against bad competition and doesn't do anything in 2/3 zones for much cheaper than Klein.

Klein's a defensive d-man making too much money when our two-way 2nd pairing d-man needs that money. That's the only argument there is.

 

[BlueshirtBlitz]

But....Klein's possession numbers! They suck! You don't need players that play well when the other team has the puck! Despite the fact that they'll have it 40-50% of the time...

Or, given our position, we can trade Klein and give his money to a guy who not only plays well when the other team has the puck, but is more likely to make sure our team is playing with the puck.

Dorse+Klein gone= 4.5 for 5 for Stralman.

 

[Doctyl]

I like him a lot, but im not going to hand Stralman 5 million if I was GM. Klein at 2.9>Stralman at 5+.

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Unimaginable steal? You can get a guy who goes against bad competition and doesn't do anything in 2/3 zones for much cheaper than Klein.

Klein's a defensive d-man making too much money when our two-way 2nd pairing d-man needs that money. That's the only argument there is.

Or, given our position, we can trade Klein and give his money to a guy who not only plays well when the other team has the puck, but is more likely to make sure our team is playing with the puck.

Dorse+Klein gone= 4.5 for 5 for Stralman.

I think you're missing something.

Nobody is arguing what you're saying regarding Stralman-Klein.

THERE ARE PEOPLE SAYING THEY'D RATHER HAVE DEL ZOTTO THAN KLEIN.

 

[Cassano]

It's an unimaginable steal for Nashville.

They're likely stuck with neither defender for the long term. They don't need to give MDZ a contract.

 

[Doctyl]

It's an unimaginable steal for Nashville.

They're likely stuck with neither defender for the long term. They don't need to give MDZ a contract.

lol Klein's contract is seen as one of the best in the league. Your hate for everyone that isnt Swedish is kinda funny.

 

[silverfish]

Unimaginable steal? You can get a guy who goes against bad competition and doesn't do anything in 2/3 zones for much cheaper than Klein.

Klein's a defensive d-man making too much money when our two-way 2nd pairing d-man needs that money. That's the only argument there is.

Yes, it's an unimagineable steal. DEL ZOTTO IS BEING SHIPPED OUT OF NASHVILLE BECAUSE HE IS NOT GOOD. HE IS CURRENTLY FIGHTING FOR HIS NHL LIFE! Klein, on the other hand is a proven capable top-4 dman.

What is happening? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

I'm not comparing Klein to Stralman.