I agree.
His injury history is a big concern. And, IMO he is not worth 6 million per year.
Stralman at between 4 and 5 million is the better option.
They would need to find a steady left-handed defenseman to slot into that #2 LHD spot.
Speculation: 2014 Offseason - Roster Building / Trade Speculation Thread II
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I agree.
His injury history is a big concern. And, IMO he is not worth 6 million per year.
Stralman at between 4 and 5 million is the better option.
They would need to find a steady left-handed defenseman to slot into that #2 LHD spot.
Gardner McKay
RIP, Jimmy.
I happen to agree with this. I don't know that his value will be higher than it is right now. People complain constantly about not selling high on players. Yet selling high on Staal would be detrimental to the defense? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I guess it comes down to math. If they trade Staal for a top line centerman, I assume there is incremental cost for that player above what Staal currently is making. Then you buyout Richards and resign a bunch of players and then determine, is there enough to pay Stralman? They find the money to pay Stralman, lose someone else in the process likely, and then find this steady left-handed d-man who's going to go against Crosby 5-6 times a year. Not sure where they find him, and I'm not sure how they afford him. I haven't done the math, so maybe I'm missing something.
Not against trading Staal. I'd like to see this team get incrementally better because even with last season's team, those playoffs play out a different way each time you try it and the team was still flawed. Trading Staal creates a hole when you look at improving over last season. The Rangers can fix the offense problem, but seemingly can't do so without creating a defense problem, and perhaps the defense wanes in 2014-2015 in any event. Not sure how it gets better than last season.
The Rangers are in a tough spot now. I'm real interested to see how they get out of it. They can, for sure, but it is going to be interesting.
Lots of people don't know what the return for Staal would be, and don't know who would replace him, but they are dead set on trading him.
...fascinating.
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
Why is everything on this site "omggg points goals scores big numbarsszzz!! 111!"
Seriously what the **** does Stralman's points have to do with anything? He's the second best defenseman for this team in the bread and butter department that makes this a good team. Not enough people are losing their minds over him. Girardi is the worst defensemen in this system playing in the top4 and we are stuck with him. Losing Stralman will be big.
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
Who was the worst top4 defenseman in the finals? After McDonagh who was the best? He is better than Girardi and you don't need stats to quantify that. Just watch the games.
Girardi is a warrior and was a keystone under Torts. The way they play now Girardi is the worst defenseman in the top4.
jerseyjinx94
I jinx players.
Gardner McKay
RIP, Jimmy.
Did you see him against LA and MTL? I felt like I was watching Marek Malik out there.
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
I'm not saying he isn't. He brings a unique skillset to the defense that the others do not make a part of their game as much. I think he is mostly a fairly good compliment to McDonagh.
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
I'm also sure the second line of your post has more to do with spreading skillsets out amongst the pairings rather than Girardi being more worthy of those assignments. He compliments McDonagh well and having the two best skating defensemen and puck movers on separate pairings is adventageous.
I love the idea of bringing in Joe Thornton. However, how?
Spezza is going for a top 6 player, a prospect and a draft pick. What is Thornton going for? Probably very similar. What top 6 do we give up for Thornton. I don think Nash for Thornton is ideal. I want Thornton mostly due to Nash being on this team lol. Kreider, hell no. Stepan nope. Brassard. Nope. JT Miller? I dont want to give up the youth for big names and older players. So who?
There is no one.
Maybe we can go after Ryan O'Reilly if the price is right
Spezza is going for a top 6 player, a prospect and a draft pick. What is Thornton going for? Probably very similar. What top 6 do we give up for Thornton. I don think Nash for Thornton is ideal. I want Thornton mostly due to Nash being on this team lol. Kreider, hell no. Stepan nope. Brassard. Nope. JT Miller? I dont want to give up the youth for big names and older players. So who?
There is no one.
Maybe we can go after Ryan O'Reilly if the price is right
Thornton was a 1c back then too... entering his prime, no less. He had posted a 100 pt season right before he got traded.
LaffyTaffyNYR
Registered User
- Feb 25, 2012
- 17,113
- 2,662
I absolutely love after we get eliminated the doom and gloomers come out... Nash has a bad year/playoffs trade him! Girardi has a bad series vs the Kings trade him! Get rid of him!! Lets trade both and watch as they just like Gaborik (who everyone also wanted gone based on 20+ games in a lockout season , lift the cup
Exactly what I was arguing yesterday. Maximize value on an asset.
I love Staal but his value isn't going to get much higher playing in a system that doesn't optimize his tools.
And at this point in his career, he is still considered a "stud defenseman".
If he can get you a long term solution at a position of need - i.e a center. Then I think you bite the bullet.
There could always be a follow up trade to get his replacement with some of the prospects that we have. McIlrath and Kristo seem to be guys that may not have spots on this team, too.
I haven't seen much Girardi hate, but the Nash stuff is awful to read... considering no one has seemed to learn their lesson by actually wanting Gaborik gone when he was traded.
So we're basing "who's the best X" on the finals? So when do we start giving Brian Boyle Rick Nash's minutes?
Stralman had a good final. Girardi had a bad final. Doesn't make Stralman superior. Girardi also played with a broken finger, and spent the entire regular season on the top-pairing, while Stralman remained on the 2nd pairing. You can try and attribute it to "spreading out the puck movement" but that's not really true at all.
If Staal is a stud defensemen, then you need to replace him with someone who is better than a bottom-pairing option. Moore isn't that guy. Allen isn't that guy. I keep seeing that Staal is going to be too expensive, and then people start throwing money at UFA's to replace him.
pld459666
Registered User
I'd a D&G guy myself, but I'm not on that train of thought.
I don't think either guy cost us the Cup. I think the collective idiocy on the PP in addition to being physically worn down late in games cost us the cup.
I think Nash is a 30-35 goal scorer and as the PO's moved along I started to feel bad for the guy as he looked to be snake bitten as much as he was bad offensively. Girardi went into a funk at the worst possible time and while he hurt us, he didn't kill us.
I would keep both.
But I also know that Stepan, Brassard, Miller and Lindberg down the middle is not good enough.
I can see the value in resigning Stralman, but I would let Boyle, Pouliot and D. Moore walk.
If Miller is best being used at C, then Trade Hagelin and Staal for an upgrade there.
Just have to find a team with a center they are willing to part with for that package.
Not going to be easy
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
Stralman had a good season and playoffs. Girardi had a decent season and okay playoffs. I'm not sure a broken pinky is a great excuse.
Agree to disagree on the second point. Stralman - McDonagh would be redundant. Why did MSL play on the second line, or Zucc on the third over Nash? Both were playing better than he was. Why don't you fill an entire line with only guys who shoot or only guys who pass?
So if something like Staal for ROR could go down, 1 for 1, and then a follow up trade for Gardiner happens....
And you're looking at:
Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Hagelin-ROR-MSL
Miller-Brassard-Zucc
Boyle-Moore-Carcillo
McD-G
Gardiner-Stralman
Allen-Klein
You wouldn't be happy?
mti79
Registered User
- May 11, 2007
- 4,186
- 546
I kind of feel that if Girardi is our worst defenseman in our top 4 then we're doing something right. I would love to keep the top 4 in tact. Buy out Brad, re-sign our key guys. Find a solution for Center somewhere. Much easier said than done, but there will likely be options out there.
Kreider-Stepan-MSL
Nash-Brass-Zucc
Hagelin-???-Fast/Miller
Fast/Miller-Moore-Dorsett
McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Stralman
Allen/Moore-Klein
Now I haven't done the math, but I would think this leaves us with some wiggle room to find a center. Maybe Miller can take that spot and we find a winger somewhere. Maybe Lindberg can make the jump. Does Kristo, Haggerty, Bourque or someone else make a push for a winger position?
And I still would like to see what happens with Mike Richards in LA. I think he would be a perfect fit for this team. If not, then maybe you see what it would cost for ROR (would like permission to speak contract with him first) or Kadri.
Edit: did the math on this lineup and without the center position filled, I estimated to have $6.7 million in cap room. Raises I guessed would be Kreider to $1.75M, Brass at $3.7, Zucc at $3.75, Dom Moore to $1.5, resigned Carcillo at $875K, Stralman at $3.7 and with Allen instead of John Moore on the 3rd pair. I think he could develop there with Klein as his partner. Even if you bump the money up on some of these guys, you'd still have money to play with to find a replacement center and a 7th defensman. Mike Richards if bought out, Bolland, Grabo, Steve Ott, Derek Roy, re-sign Boyle....
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Brooklyn Rangers Fan
Change is good.
Lots of good stuff over the last couple of pages. (ElectrocutedCat - welcome to the boards. Excellent contributions to the discussion already.) Here are my thoughts on the various points brought up over the last several posts (apologies in advance for the length):
1) Regarding Stralman having come off the scrapheap: it does happen. And don't forget that it takes defensemen the longest of all to learn their positions. At this point, I think what you see is what you get - he is a very solid defenseman who excels at the possession game and is worth the $4-5MM AAV that he's going to get. Furthermore, he stepped up in the POs and that is part of why management made Girardi the higher priority and why his salary expectations went from something in the $3MMs to something as high as the $5MMs - but that is a reason to value him more, not less.
2) Regarding whether Staal makes Stralman better or Stralman makes Staal better: I think Staal was instrumental in helping reclaim Stralman from the scrapheap; his fantastic defensive play, particularly in the old system - and before the injury - provided stability to anyone he was paired with and that helped Stralman find the confidence to develop his possession-based game. Now, however, I believe that Stralman has developed, while Staal has been somewhat diminished by his injuries - and the former is significantly better suited for AV's system than the latter. And so I think the roles are now reversed - Stralman now makes Staal better.
3) Regarding Klein's ability to step up: I agree with BRB that he showed very nice flashes during the POs. Again, that is something to be valued, rather than denigrated as "small sample size". If need be, I think he could do the job, although I do think there would be a marginal step down in performance on the second pair.
4) Regarding John Moore's ability to step up: he has fantastic physical gifts and shows flashes as well. However, his negative flashes can also be disturbing. As I mentioned above, defensemen take the longest to develop and I would like to give him the opportunity to maximize those impressive physical skills. However, I would like to keep him on the third pair until he shows that he has. Unlike Klein, he's not steady enough in his current play for me to trust the increase in responsibility until he's actually shown more stability in his current role.
5) Regarding trading Staal: We can't have another Callahan/Girardi situation. He doesn't fit the system as well as other guys (including Stralman). He has had terrible luck with injuries and he does appear to be somewhat diminished. He is going to get a $6MM AAV contract next year. His value is still high. We need to make improvements elsewhere. The net effect of all of these points is that it needs to be done - and sooner rather than later. As others have said, time to trade a guy while his value is high - we cannot let the fact that there is no one currently on the big league roster who is an obvious replacement prevent us from making that decision. Good teams find solutions - they uncover the next Stralman, they promote a kid who steps up and steps into the player's shoes, or they make a shrewd trade.
6) Regarding whom to target: It needs to be a center, but I don't like ANY of the big names that have been bandied about. No more aging stars, please. The only one that's at all appealing is O'Reilly, and frankly I didn't realize that footspeed was such an issue for him - whenever I've seen him, he's been a difference making player, but in retrospect, he would be the guy coming into the zone second, trailing one of the Avs' great centermen, and I wonder if his lack of speed wouldn't be much more exposed on this team, especially where he would be asked to revert to center and wouldn't have Duchesne/Mackinnon/Stastny to play with. I would still be in favor of getting him because he plays such a complete game and just strikes me as a winner, but all things being equal, I'd prefer an outside the box solution. Go get a kid on the cusp of breaking out or uncover a hidden gem, as I've said in the past and as ElectrocutedCat has suggested above. What would it take to get Bjugstad or Coyle? Huberdeau or Zibanejad? But maybe those guys are a little too obvious - what about one of Buffalo's young centers? Rakell in Anaheim? Or how about a guy who's never quite lived up to expectations like Backlund in Calgary? My preference would be to make a move of that kind and then let the new guy, Step, Brass, Miller and Lindberg duke it out in camp. (Unless of course a Brass/Step is added in a major deal to get a true, established first line center - but I don't see that happening.)
7) Regarding filling the inevitable hole(s) in our defense: However this plays out, whether they trade Staal, lose Stralman or both, the team is very likely going to need someone new to step in and pick up the slack on D. I have advocated getting a cheap vet coming off an injury or a down year as insurance, but I am more optimistic than most that we would have someone step up from within - IF we only have to replace one of the two (I think both would be too much to ask in one season). I think Allen would be excellent in AV's system - and fortunately, he can play both sides. If they sign Skjei, I'm also confident that he could step right in and play in his first year. McI I'm less sanguine about, but by the same token, if he takes a big step this offseason, he does bring something that no one else in the organization has. And that's without counting new guys like Zamorsky and Bodie.
To sum up, I do believe that the team can step forward - but I think it requires trading Staal. And as a result, I think it is a priority to sign Stralman. The resulting loss on defense can be mitigated - the real question is whether you get the right player in return...
1) Regarding Stralman having come off the scrapheap: it does happen. And don't forget that it takes defensemen the longest of all to learn their positions. At this point, I think what you see is what you get - he is a very solid defenseman who excels at the possession game and is worth the $4-5MM AAV that he's going to get. Furthermore, he stepped up in the POs and that is part of why management made Girardi the higher priority and why his salary expectations went from something in the $3MMs to something as high as the $5MMs - but that is a reason to value him more, not less.
2) Regarding whether Staal makes Stralman better or Stralman makes Staal better: I think Staal was instrumental in helping reclaim Stralman from the scrapheap; his fantastic defensive play, particularly in the old system - and before the injury - provided stability to anyone he was paired with and that helped Stralman find the confidence to develop his possession-based game. Now, however, I believe that Stralman has developed, while Staal has been somewhat diminished by his injuries - and the former is significantly better suited for AV's system than the latter. And so I think the roles are now reversed - Stralman now makes Staal better.
3) Regarding Klein's ability to step up: I agree with BRB that he showed very nice flashes during the POs. Again, that is something to be valued, rather than denigrated as "small sample size". If need be, I think he could do the job, although I do think there would be a marginal step down in performance on the second pair.
4) Regarding John Moore's ability to step up: he has fantastic physical gifts and shows flashes as well. However, his negative flashes can also be disturbing. As I mentioned above, defensemen take the longest to develop and I would like to give him the opportunity to maximize those impressive physical skills. However, I would like to keep him on the third pair until he shows that he has. Unlike Klein, he's not steady enough in his current play for me to trust the increase in responsibility until he's actually shown more stability in his current role.
5) Regarding trading Staal: We can't have another Callahan/Girardi situation. He doesn't fit the system as well as other guys (including Stralman). He has had terrible luck with injuries and he does appear to be somewhat diminished. He is going to get a $6MM AAV contract next year. His value is still high. We need to make improvements elsewhere. The net effect of all of these points is that it needs to be done - and sooner rather than later. As others have said, time to trade a guy while his value is high - we cannot let the fact that there is no one currently on the big league roster who is an obvious replacement prevent us from making that decision. Good teams find solutions - they uncover the next Stralman, they promote a kid who steps up and steps into the player's shoes, or they make a shrewd trade.
6) Regarding whom to target: It needs to be a center, but I don't like ANY of the big names that have been bandied about. No more aging stars, please. The only one that's at all appealing is O'Reilly, and frankly I didn't realize that footspeed was such an issue for him - whenever I've seen him, he's been a difference making player, but in retrospect, he would be the guy coming into the zone second, trailing one of the Avs' great centermen, and I wonder if his lack of speed wouldn't be much more exposed on this team, especially where he would be asked to revert to center and wouldn't have Duchesne/Mackinnon/Stastny to play with. I would still be in favor of getting him because he plays such a complete game and just strikes me as a winner, but all things being equal, I'd prefer an outside the box solution. Go get a kid on the cusp of breaking out or uncover a hidden gem, as I've said in the past and as ElectrocutedCat has suggested above. What would it take to get Bjugstad or Coyle? Huberdeau or Zibanejad? But maybe those guys are a little too obvious - what about one of Buffalo's young centers? Rakell in Anaheim? Or how about a guy who's never quite lived up to expectations like Backlund in Calgary? My preference would be to make a move of that kind and then let the new guy, Step, Brass, Miller and Lindberg duke it out in camp. (Unless of course a Brass/Step is added in a major deal to get a true, established first line center - but I don't see that happening.)
7) Regarding filling the inevitable hole(s) in our defense: However this plays out, whether they trade Staal, lose Stralman or both, the team is very likely going to need someone new to step in and pick up the slack on D. I have advocated getting a cheap vet coming off an injury or a down year as insurance, but I am more optimistic than most that we would have someone step up from within - IF we only have to replace one of the two (I think both would be too much to ask in one season). I think Allen would be excellent in AV's system - and fortunately, he can play both sides. If they sign Skjei, I'm also confident that he could step right in and play in his first year. McI I'm less sanguine about, but by the same token, if he takes a big step this offseason, he does bring something that no one else in the organization has. And that's without counting new guys like Zamorsky and Bodie.
To sum up, I do believe that the team can step forward - but I think it requires trading Staal. And as a result, I think it is a priority to sign Stralman. The resulting loss on defense can be mitigated - the real question is whether you get the right player in return...
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NikC
Registered User
- Oct 7, 2008
- 5,202
- 1,156
I like stralman alot, and he is an important player but to read that losing him will plunder our defense is laughable. People make cases for players all the time and laugh at those who point to intangibles but in the case of Stralman we make an exception?
Totally with you on Girardi. I dont like him when it counts.
In context I was responding to BBKers post about moving Stephan and Nash for the Staal bros.
keeping Marc and letting Stralman walk...
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