2014 CBJ Offseason Thread III (All proposals, "blog" rumors, speculation in here)

major major

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That's a much better set of comparables for Foligno.

The question then is, is that appropriate money for that class of players / can you build a contending team that way? The Coach doesn't think so, but I disagree. Matt Read and Chris Kunitz I think are underpaid, and Kulemin and Gionta overpaid, but generally those guys should be $4m dollar players.

As an aside: Kunitz is the only one of those guys who has a higher 5 on 5 scoring rate than Foligno, so if anything we're still comparing him to players who produce less per minute.
 

thebus2288*

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So its pretty clear that these idiot bloggers are either friends of some of you or actually some of you guys in here. You guys link these articles in here to attempt to validate opinions that are just wrong. Probably 75% of the "comparable players" he uses are terrible. He also likes to slash Foligno's value by always mentioning that he can't kill penalties. That's part of the problem with hows he's looking at players. He's looking at only a fraction of what makes a player a player and he also completely leaves out team dynamics and usage for a player. Saying Foligno can't kill penalties is like saying Johansen can't kill penalties. Just because they don't doesn't mean they can't.
 

WannabeFinn

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Thoughts on Letestu being on either of the top 2 PP units for us this year? Had 3rd most PPG and 5th most PPP for us this past year. But with guys like Jenner, Hartnell, and Horton coming onto the scene in addition to Johansen, Dubinsky, etc.. does he keep his spot there?
 

Socks

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So its pretty clear that these idiot bloggers are either friends of some of you or actually some of you guys in here. You guys link these articles in here to attempt to validate opinions that are just wrong. Probably 75% of the "comparable players" he uses are terrible. He also likes to slash Foligno's value by always mentioning that he can't kill penalties. That's part of the problem with hows he's looking at players. He's looking at only a fraction of what makes a player a player and he also completely leaves out team dynamics and usage for a player. Saying Foligno can't kill penalties is like saying Johansen can't kill penalties. Just because they don't doesn't mean they can't.

By extension calling people here idiots. Always a crowd pleaser. You know if you stop with the insults some of us might actually start taking you seriously.

I mean probably not but it's worth a shot.
 

EspenK

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So its pretty clear that these idiot bloggers are either friends of some of you or actually some of you guys in here. You guys link these articles in here to attempt to validate opinions that are just wrong. Probably 75% of the "comparable players" he uses are terrible. He also likes to slash Foligno's value by always mentioning that he can't kill penalties. That's part of the problem with hows he's looking at players. He's looking at only a fraction of what makes a player a player and he also completely leaves out team dynamics and usage for a player. Saying Foligno can't kill penalties is like saying Johansen can't kill penalties. Just because they don't doesn't mean they can't.

I fail to see where anyone linked to these articles to support their positions. People post links they feel others who might miss them otherwise will enjoy reading. If you feel that people who write these blogs are idiots well I guess that is your prerogative as it is for many of us to believe that some posters could be classified as such also.
 

pete goegan

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By extension calling people here idiots. Always a crowd pleaser. You know if you stop with the insults some of us might actually start taking you seriously.

I mean probably not but it's worth a shot.

Nah.

It's painfully obvious. The people who link the articles never link them because they have some criticism to share. It's always such high praise for articles that, sometimes, aren't even worth opening.

I frequently link articles with which I disagree, if they are well written and contain interesting info. Nobody is forced to agree with everything, nor even follow the links.
 

WannabeFinn

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I frequently link articles with which I disagree, if they are well written and contain interesting info. Nobody is forced to agree with everything, nor even follow the links.
I'm sorry, in my post I wasn't referring to just HFBoards, but also other places for hockey discussion. In my experience it seems that most blogs, not all of them, are posted/linked by those who wrote the articles themselves or by someone who writes for the same blog.

It's not necessarily the content of the articles that bothers me, either. I just don't like how some people push their own content so hard. IMO good content will bring clicks/views/comments etc. on its own.

No offense to anyone who genuinely is sharing an article that they think is good and had nothing to do with.
 

major major

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If you got an article you want to post here, whether you wrote it or not, I say feel free. I'm not happy with the coach right now but he/she is generally insightful, and I'll keep reading.
 

major major

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Thoughts on Letestu being on either of the top 2 PP units for us this year? Had 3rd most PPG and 5th most PPP for us this past year. But with guys like Jenner, Hartnell, and Horton coming onto the scene in addition to Johansen, Dubinsky, etc.. does he keep his spot there?

I actually don't pay enough attention to our powerplay. Is Letestu normally on the halfwall? Sometimes on the point? I can't imagine we'd want him off the PP.

Edit: I just checked. Letestu led the team in points per minute on the powerplay. No way he gets moved off of there.
 

WannabeFinn

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I actually don't pay enough attention to our powerplay. Is Letestu normally on the halfwall? Sometimes on the point? I can't imagine we'd want him off the PP.

Edit: I just checked. Letestu led the team in points per minute on the powerplay. No way he gets moved off of there.
Who would you say our 6 forwards for our top 2 PP units are, then? I'd have to imagine that in your opinion Letestu and Johansen are locks. Hartnell and Horton for the big bodies it seems. Leaves only 2 of Dubinsky, Foligno, Jenner, Anisimov, Atkinson to fit in there.
 

major major

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Who would you say our 6 forwards for our top 2 PP units are, then? I'd have to imagine that in your opinion Letestu and Johansen are locks. Hartnell and Horton for the big bodies it seems. Leaves only 2 of Dubinsky, Foligno, Jenner, Anisimov, Atkinson to fit in there.

Jenner's a lock too, to play in the crease on whatever unit Hartnell isn't doing that job. Foligno is definitely not a fit because he has an awful shot, while Horton can rip it from the halfwall. For the last spot you could rotate Dubinsky, Anisimov, and Atkinson based on whoever's hot or needs a shift.
 

db2011

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:facepalm:

you read the part that the Coach used to work in arbitrating right? so that whole "makes no sense" is about as wrong as possible. Maybe to you it doesn't, but its a look into how the process works. I'll quote the part




its fine to disagree with him on what he presents, but before ****ing all over the posts, understand that the points are valid...

I'm not very invested in this- aside from liking Foligno, I don't know anything about advanced stats. But it's worth mentioning that this guy "used" to work in arbitrating. Advanced stats across sports are a "revolution" of sorts. I understand you support the Coach and where he's coming from, but just because he used to do something doesn't mean he is qualified to do it now. Arbitration when he did it may have been only about points, and it may now be about advanced stats- majormajor articulates pretty well why he doesn't agree with the Coach's project, and it could very well be that the Coach's points aren't so valid anymore.

I guess then +/- would come into play. I'm trying to decide if it is worth getting immersed in fancy stats. My gut inclination is to acknowledge they exist and may be used to decide certain options but I'm going to stick with pts and my eyes to decide if a guy sucks or not. :laugh:

Can't imagine sitting around a bar arguing with some big old tough guy and saying "Yeah, but what is his corsi?" Like saying "go ahead hit me" :laugh:

I would think if you want to follow along at an in-depth level, you ought to make the effort to follow these stats. My feeling is they will be if they aren't already given a fair amount of consideration by front offices when evaluating players and awarding contracts.

An aversion to being ridiculed by an old tough guy is a poor reason to limit your understanding. Curiosity is a good thing.
 

Mayor Bee

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Dec 29, 2008
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So its pretty clear that these idiot bloggers are either friends of some of you or actually some of you guys in here. You guys link these articles in here to attempt to validate opinions that are just wrong. Probably 75% of the "comparable players" he uses are terrible. He also likes to slash Foligno's value by always mentioning that he can't kill penalties. That's part of the problem with hows he's looking at players. He's looking at only a fraction of what makes a player a player and he also completely leaves out team dynamics and usage for a player. Saying Foligno can't kill penalties is like saying Johansen can't kill penalties. Just because they don't doesn't mean they can't.

If you want on-point analysis grounded in logic, you'll just have to convince me to post more often.
 

Mayor Bee

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Dec 29, 2008
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I don't find that there's anything advanced or fancy about the newfangled stats. They're all just basic arithmetic.

But the way some of the fancy stats are justified does actually turn out to be pretty complex, and I want to explore that more someday. Folks say a player "drives possession" or is better at "possession", when they're simply looking at a player's positive shot plus/minus (corsi), a move that is justified because Corsi supposedly highly correlates with time of possession. I'd like to test out just how good that correlation is, because there are a lot of other factors (like proclivity to shoot) that would seem to influence shot attempts.

I agree.

Hockey analysts have sort of taken the lead from Sabremetrics in baseball, but ignore a few simple things:
1) Baseball is both more static and more linear, hockey more fluid
2) Baseball stats are tracked to a much greater extent than in hockey
3) Baseball went through a span of about 25 years of new stuff coming out into the open, being tested and analyzed itself for importance by others, and resulted in a lot of new stuff falling by the wayside. Some of it failed the eyeball test, some of it fell apart because it was arbitrary, and some of it was more for entertainment and settling arguments than for meaningful analysis in the moment.
4) Baseball has cycled back and forth between bringing new numbers and analyses out into the open and attempting to find a "grand unified number" that explains everything. I find myself in the former camp: invent, test, study, publish, and see if it holds up. Too much of hockey right now is in the latter camp, where a single number or two is held up as the real important part.
5) Baseball did go through a span where there were statistical idiots having too much power. These are the guys who are convinced that the game is no more complex than the numbers themselves, and that other externalities like a locker room cancer or a neurotic rookie or a high-strung coach are either minimized or eliminated.

I think that a lot of us who have a background in other sports and have done actual analysis in any sport tend to be pretty skeptical of what's going on in hockey. Hardcore baseball analysis has done incredible things for the game on the field, for the kids coming up, and for the Hall of Fame. Hockey...not so much. Yet. It reminds of me of what Bill James said in 2003, which was something about how we're now drawing information with a bucket instead of a thimble, but it's still being drawn from an ocean.
 

Fro

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I'm not very invested in this- aside from liking Foligno, I don't know anything about advanced stats. But it's worth mentioning that this guy "used" to work in arbitrating. Advanced stats across sports are a "revolution" of sorts. I understand you support the Coach and where he's coming from, but just because he used to do something doesn't mean he is qualified to do it now. Arbitration when he did it may have been only about points, and it may now be about advanced stats- majormajor articulates pretty well why he doesn't agree with the Coach's project, and it could very well be that the Coach's points aren't so valid anymore.

and that's fine...I'm not a blogger, so no, they're not my articles (not necc directed at this quote, but another one above) but I do know "the coach" (and all the other tUB posters and call them friends)...I know why he isn't doing what he's doing any more and it's a personal decision....and yes you are right, with more advanced stats becoming the norm, this way of looking at it is becoming slightly antiquated. I posted the links (and will do so with the others in the series) as a discussion basis rather than having meaningless proposals and "I hate player xyz and so should you" posts.

I believe his writings are rather well thought out and generate good thought provocation. Much like Pete, I don't always agree with what I post, but if I find it interesting enough and a good discussion, I'll pass it along. If someone doesn't agree, that's fine, like MajorMajor...he didn't and he presented good reason why he doesn't...others dismiss it and miss the point of the links totally. I like good clean debate. Most of what I will link to, offers a chance for that. I feel lucky to have gotten to know many far more intelligent ppl than I, that talk about the CBJ and hockey in general and do so rationally (as many here do as well) and that's a reason I come here...for more of that...and another side of a conversation to further my own knowledge and thought provocation
 

IHeartZherdev*

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Lol...so "the coach" goes from saying Foligno deserves $2.5 million and the CBJ should let him go, to saying "sorry, Foligno isn't a $4 million player" to saying the CBJ should play him on the top line with Joey and let him get more points and then pay him the $4 million a year?

Did he flip flop this much and this badly when he was "working on real NHL arbitration cases?"

What a nonsensical rambling. thebus2288 is totally right on.
 

NotWendell

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I'm sorry, in my post I wasn't referring to just HFBoards, but also other places for hockey discussion. In my experience it seems that most blogs, not all of them, are posted/linked by those who wrote the articles themselves or by someone who writes for the same blog.

It's not necessarily the content of the articles that bothers me, either. I just don't like how some people push their own content so hard. IMO good content will bring clicks/views/comments etc. on its own.

No offense to anyone who genuinely is sharing an article that they think is good and had nothing to do with.

I disagree. If nobody knows about it, nobody will read it no matter how good it is.

You'll find that Hockey's Future pimps their own articles here because, well, it's their boards. Beyond that, I have no problem with someone posting a link to an article they wrote as long as there is full disclosure. Don't be hiding behind a screen name and saying how great an article is when you're the one who wrote it.
 

Xoggz22

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Who would you say our 6 forwards for our top 2 PP units are, then? I'd have to imagine that in your opinion Letestu and Johansen are locks. Hartnell and Horton for the big bodies it seems. Leaves only 2 of Dubinsky, Foligno, Jenner, Anisimov, Atkinson to fit in there.

many teams use 4 forwards so it is possible that the CBJ retains views that as an option. Lots of combinations will be used and it will likely be like our lines... Several units to rotate based on who is hot.
 

FreeBoomer61

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Feb 8, 2011
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many teams use 4 forwards so it is possible that the CBJ retains views that as an option. Lots of combinations will be used and it will likely be like our lines... Several units to rotate based on who is hot.

Letestu has worked the point before in the past, and with Nikitin no longer around, I could see him taking over that spot on the second unit.

First Unit: Hartnell-Johansen-Horton, Johnson-Wisniewski
Second Unit: Jenner/Atkinson/Calvert-Dubinsky-Anisimov, Murray-Letestu
 

Fro

Cheatin on CBJ w TBL
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Letestu has worked the point before in the past, and with Nikitin no longer around, I could see him taking over that spot on the second unit.

First Unit: Hartnell-Johansen-Horton, Johnson-Wisniewski
Second Unit: Jenner/Atkinson/Calvert-Dubinsky-Anisimov, Murray-Letestu

i think Savy may work his way into that 2nd unit...we have several choices though...
 

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