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OT: 2013-2014 NFL Thread II? (Giants suck; Jets play Monday)

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That was one of those games that was so bad all around, I can't even think about who lost it for the Giants.

The offense? You bet.
The defense? You bet.
Special teams? Oh yeah.

You know who had good games though? Prince had a good game I thought. I thought David Wilson showed some flashes too, which was nice to see.

But **** man... Gonna be a long winter.
 
silverfish said:
That was one of those games that was so bad all around, I can't even think about who lost it for the Giants.

The offense? You bet.
The defense? You bet.
Special teams? Oh yeah.

You know who had good games though? Prince had a good game I thought. I thought David Wilson showed some flashes too, which was nice to see.

But **** man... Gonna be a long winter.
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Prince did have a good game, and Paysinger was very noticeable in the first half, in a good way. Wilson was fine, seems to be gaining confidence. But that was about it.
 
The amusing thing is, the Giants could've probably made the playoffs with an 8-8 season if they weren't so utterly hopeless.
 
The Jags have 31 points this year.

The Broncos have scored at least 31 in three different halves.

edit- Also, when i'm feeling down about the G-men, I can always feel better remembering week 1 when Eagles fans thought they were gonna be good just to get embarrassed in 3 consecutive weeks.
 
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nyrleetch said:
I am Jets fan and I thought it was dirty. Coples more. I could understand trying to slow down, but it looked like he purposely lowers his shoulder into him.
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Declaring that you are Jets fan and think it is dirty doesn't validate your opinion more than if you were a Raiders fan or Bengals fan or no fan at all and thought otherwise.

Wilkerson finished his hit. Don't delude yourself that these hits don't happen all the time. It was a clean hit, by NFL rules. Little-no reaction time for Mo. Unavoidable for him. The unfortunate turn of events that led to Locker's injury doesn't mean that the hit was dirty.

As for Coples, he braced for contact. What did you want him to catch Locker and embrace him? Everything happened in a split second. It's easy for you to judge intentions and reaction times when CBS replays the play on slow mo 5 times.

Locker's leg turned awkwardly because his footing was awkward. His cleat stuck to the ground and didn't give his leg a chance move naturally. If a hockey player's ice skate gets stuck in a rut and another player hits him, forcing his body to go in one direction while his leg remained planted, that wouldn't be considered a dirty hit.

The fact that this is even a discussion is bothersome. The NFL is a physical sport. You try and eliminate hits that have a deliberate intention to cause an injury: head hunting, knee/ankle hunting, attacking a defenseless player. Locker is aware of the pressure - he begins to brace himself. Contact to the head and legs are avoided by both Coples and Wilkerson. The announcer was complaining that Wilkerson's hit was dirty because of the helmet to chest contact. I would even call that a harsh assessment. Wilkshake had his own momentum, plus momentum from o-lineman who inadvertently pushed him towards Locker... had a split second to react, and did the only thing he could do. Wilkerson tries to push Locker down with his hands more so than attack him with his helmet. Lockers swinging leg plants awkwardly. At the same time Coples is on track to hit locker too - he braces himself for contact, lowers a shoulder and then tries to avoid further contact.

There should be no discussion about this.
 
kenjets36 said:
Declaring that you are Jets fan and think it is dirty doesn't validate your opinion more than if you were a Raiders fan or Bengals fan or no fan at all and thought otherwise.

Wilkerson finished his hit. Don't delude yourself that these hits don't happen all the time. It was a clean hit, by NFL rules. Little-no reaction time for Mo. Unavoidable for him. The unfortunate turn of events that led to Locker's injury doesn't mean that the hit was dirty.

As for Coples, he braced for contact. What did you want him to catch Locker and embrace him? Everything happened in a split second. It's easy for you to judge intentions and reaction times when CBS replays the play on slow mo 5 times.

Locker's leg turned awkwardly because his footing was awkward. His cleat stuck to the ground and didn't give his leg a chance move naturally. If a hockey player's ice skate gets stuck in a rut and another player hits him, forcing his body to go in one direction while his leg remained planted, that wouldn't be considered a dirty hit.

The fact that this is even a discussion is bothersome. The NFL is a physical sport. You try and eliminate hits that have a deliberate intention to cause an injury: head hunting, knee/ankle hunting, attacking a defenseless player. Locker is aware of the pressure - he begins to brace himself. Contact to the head and legs are avoided by both Coples and Wilkerson. The announcer was complaining that Wilkerson's hit was dirty because of the helmet to chest contact. I would even call that a harsh assessment. Wilkshake had his own momentum, plus momentum from o-lineman who inadvertently pushed him towards Locker... had a split second to react, and did the only thing he could do. Wilkerson tries to push Locker down with his hands more so than attack him with his helmet. Lockers swinging leg plants awkwardly. At the same time Coples is on track to hit locker too - he braces himself for contact, lowers a shoulder and then tries to avoid further contact.

There should be no discussion about this.
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Of course it doesn't. I was just putting it out there before someone jumps to the old must hate the Jets. I don't really have a problem with the Wilkerson hit. May have been a little late but those hits happen. I see your viewpoint. I'm not trying to start a huge discussion over this. I just thought Coples just lowered the shoulder awkwardly and may have been able to avoid doing that. Again, I know how different it is in real speed vs slow mo replay, I was just giving my opinion on the play.
 
Giants should target Maurice Jones Drew (upcoming FA) after this season is over. I know they have high hopes for Wilson, but they could then trade Wilson for other areas if thats the case.
 
Locker was taken to the hospital. Dislocated hip is my uneducated guess at the moment.
 
With Hill hurt (and extremely injury prone as is) and Holmes hurt we need to make a deal ASAP.

Time to try to acquire Gordon/Britt. Both can be long term pieces to our team as well as fixes in the short-term.
 
I have absolutely no problem with the Wilkerson hit. It was borderline late, but not egregiously so. He didn't target his head, didn't lead with his helmet, etc. It wasn't the most well-timed hit you'll see, but it's football, that's just how it goes.

I can at least understand why people are upset with Coples' part in the hit. He gave him a little extra--forearm shiver up near the head and shoulders, is how it looked to me. Again though, that kind of stuff happens in every scrum, every pile, every pushing and shoving match in every game. Unfortunately for Coples, his "something extra" happened on a play where the QB was seriously injured. As a result, he'll probably get a fine.

Much ado about nothing though. In a league where farting near an opposing QB warrants a 15-yard penalty, it's telling that no flags came out on the play.
 
Ironic the NYJ played Tenn b/c Smith is very much like Vince Young. Just a stupid person out there on the field. The lack of on field awareness on the first strip sack and the stupidity of the behind the back fumble is just awe inspiring. He's improving and makes plays but the TO's are just too much and seem to be a product of his lack of awareness. Yet another season where our inability to find any sort of decent QB destroys the season.

For "fun" I looked up the entire history of Jets starting QB's yesterday to see who the longest tenured QB was. Ken O'Brien was listed in 7 straight seasons (accompanied by about 7 other QB's, and Pennington was 6 (although he too was oft injured).

So at best they've only been able to keep a QB for about 4 or 5 years. After looking this up I'm still cleaning vomit out of the rug

I've never seen this many penalties from a team besides Oakland. Wth is going on? Dunno how the ref calls that pathetic personal foul on Mcintyre but doesn't see the jersey tug on Winslow or the late hit out of bounds.

People thought the hit was dirty? Wow...totally disagree. I'll look at it again but it was about as clean as can be.
 
Matt4776 said:
With Hill hurt (and extremely injury prone as is) and Holmes hurt we need to make a deal ASAP.

Time to try to acquire Gordon/Britt. Both can be long term pieces to our team as well as fixes in the short-term.
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How bout just bringing a guy like Braylon back?
 
FATCHAMALA11 said:
How bout just bringing a guy like Braylon back?
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Braylon is done. The only reason for him would've been for that chemistry with Sanchez.

He can't play ST and he lost his speed. I honestly don't know if he's an upgrade over Clyde Gates at this point (and I despise Gates).

We need a legit #1 for this season and beyond. We could ride out with what we have now and draft Lee/Watkins with the first, or we could trade a 4th/5th + a 2016 conditional pick for Josh Gordon, have someone that's already a #1 now and for the future, and have the 1st rounder to spend either on OLB (Barr) or TE (ASJ).

Say we trade a 2014 4th and a 2016 conditional 3rd if Gordon is still on the roster (IR or normal) by March 2, 2016. We can then go out and sign Jairus Byrd (finally have a ballhawk for our defense. We've only produced two TOs this year) and maybe even a Jeremy Maclin, who should come cheap-ish after his ACL (he'll be cheaper than Holmes).

We could go Barr in the first, Lyerla in the second, Loston (Safety LSU) and Carey (RB, Arizona) in the third, and Dri Archer (badly needed KR/PR/RB/WR) in the 4th. The rest of the draft can focus on OL depth and maybe a MLB to groom behind Harris.

That's how you retool in today's NFL. If our CBs can pull it together, that's easily a top-3 defense at it's floor. We'd also have the weapons of a top offense in the NFL (Maclin, Gordon, Hill, Kerley, Lyerla, Goodson, Carey, Powell). If Geno can pull it together, that's an explosive offense.

This will be a huge offseason for the Jets. This is the PERFECT time to spend in FA, as we need veteran leadership in those two positions. We have the space, and we have the young talent. We're in a much better place than we were in 07-08. It's time to re-open our window.
 
I don't know if Geno is showing a lack of awareness any more than your typical raw, rookie QB would. I think he tries to do too much and makes silly mistakes as a result (the buttfumble was an example of this). The first fumble was just sloppy, lazy play. It's something that he could probably get away with in the slower college game, but he'll look stupid every time he does that kind of stuff in the NFL. Again, though, that's what being a rookie is about--learning, adjusting. As long as we don't see him forget to tuck on his way to the sidelines, and we don't see him try to do dumb things with the ball in trying to avoid a sack, then he'll be okay.

If he doesn't learn, and doesn't adjust, then he'll be Mark Sanchez. The TO's are incredibly frustrating, but it's part of a process. Hopefully he gets better as the season progresses.

Remember: Peyton Manning turned the ball over 31 times as a rookie! :laugh: ;)
 
nyr2k2 said:
I don't know if Geno is showing a lack of awareness any more than your typical raw, rookie QB would. I think he tries to do too much and makes silly mistakes as a result (the buttfumble was an example of this). The first fumble was just sloppy, lazy play. It's something that he could probably get away with in the slower college game, but he'll look stupid every time he does that kind of stuff in the NFL. Again, though, that's what being a rookie is about--learning, adjusting. As long as we don't see him forget to tuck on his way to the sidelines, and we don't see him try to do dumb things with the ball in trying to avoid a sack, then he'll be okay.

If he doesn't learn, and doesn't adjust, then he'll be Mark Sanchez. The TO's are incredibly frustrating, but it's part of a process. Hopefully he gets better as the season progresses.

Remember: Peyton Manning turned the ball over 31 times as a rookie! :laugh: ;)
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I'm as pro-Geno as it gets, but I cringe whenever anyone types that.

For every Peyton that turned it over 31 times and still turned out to be a great QB, there are fifty QBs that turn it over 31 times and turn out to be awful (see Mark Sanchez)
 
Matt4776 said:
I'm as pro-Geno as it gets, but I cringe whenever anyone types that.

For every Peyton that turned it over 31 times and still turned out to be a great QB, there are fifty QBs that turn it over 31 times and turn out to be awful (see Mark Sanchez)
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Oh I know, I wasn't trying to draw a serious comparison or anything. :)
 
Matt4776 said:
Braylon is done. The only reason for him would've been for that chemistry with Sanchez.

He can't play ST and he lost his speed. I honestly don't know if he's an upgrade over Clyde Gates at this point (and I despise Gates).

We need a legit #1 for this season and beyond. We could ride out with what we have now and draft Lee/Watkins with the first, or we could trade a 4th/5th + a 2016 conditional pick for Josh Gordon, have someone that's already a #1 now and for the future, and have the 1st rounder to spend either on OLB (Barr) or TE (ASJ).

Say we trade a 2014 4th and a 2016 conditional 3rd if Gordon is still on the roster (IR or normal) by March 2, 2016. We can then go out and sign Jairus Byrd (finally have a ballhawk for our defense. We've only produced two TOs this year) and maybe even a Jeremy Maclin, who should come cheap-ish after his ACL (he'll be cheaper than Holmes).

We could go Barr in the first, Lyerla in the second, Loston (Safety LSU) and Carey (RB, Arizona) in the third, and Dri Archer (badly needed KR/PR/RB/WR) in the 4th. The rest of the draft can focus on OL depth and maybe a MLB to groom behind Harris.

That's how you retool in today's NFL. If our CBs can pull it together, that's easily a top-3 defense at it's floor. We'd also have the weapons of a top offense in the NFL (Maclin, Gordon, Hill, Kerley, Lyerla, Goodson, Carey, Powell). If Geno can pull it together, that's an explosive offense.

This will be a huge offseason for the Jets. This is the PERFECT time to spend in FA, as we need veteran leadership in those two positions. We have the space, and we have the young talent. We're in a much better place than we were in 07-08. It's time to re-open our window.
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Browns fan here. You're not getting Gordon for that. At this point, it's looking like they're keeping him - and they're certainly not trading him for less than the 2nd round pick used to draft him. More likely you'd need to give up a first to pry him away from the Browns. He's showing all the signs of being a legit #1 receiver and the ONLY reason he might be moved is the off-the-field stuff.
 
Matt4776 said:
I'm as pro-Geno as it gets, but I cringe whenever anyone types that.

For every Peyton that turned it over 31 times and still turned out to be a great QB, there are fifty QBs that turn it over 31 times and turn out to be awful (see Mark Sanchez)
Click to expand...

A better comparison would be Eli Manning, IMO. He turned the ball over a hell of a lot, but he always looked the part. Same with Geno. Geno will have growing pains, but he is a legitimate starting QB.

If I am the Jets, I focus on OL and WR this draft. They really need to sure up that OL since Geno just has zero time to throw. The pass blocking is really bad (for some reason the run blocking isn't as bad). If you can fix that and get him a legitimate weapon (I don't think Hill is that legitimate weapon), than you really have something to work with.

I think WVU's season this year shows anyone with a pulse that Geno was not a system QB. He was a hell of a QB who flourished in a system but would have flourished in most systems.
 
BrooklynRangersFan said:
Browns fan here. You're not getting Gordon for that. At this point, it's looking like they're keeping him - and they're certainly not trading him for less than the 2nd round pick used to draft him. More likely you'd need to give up a first to pry him away from the Browns. He's showing all the signs of being a legit #1 receiver and the ONLY reason he might be moved is the off-the-field stuff.
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I bet you would've said Trent Richardson wouldn't have been traded for a high first rounder either.

Jet fans (myself included) would've said Revis would've commanded at least two first round picks.

In 2009 (as I'm sure you remember) a 26-year-old Braylon Edwards was traded for a 3rd and a 5th. Edwards then had more value than Gordon does now.

Steelers' fans said a Super Bowl MVP in his prime would NEVER be traded for a 5th round draft pick.

In the NFL, draft picks are extremely over-valued (in my opinion, at least). If Santonio Holmes fetched a 5th round pick in his prime AFTER making one of the greatest catches in Super Bowl history (and was obviously a #1 receiver and the Steelers' biggest weapon before that) Josh Gordon will absolutely not fetch a 2nd.



EDIT: Gordon's off the field issues were also much worse than what Holmes' were at the time.
 
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