OT: 2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part XI: The "Please make it stop" edition.

[Boruto]

At this point, cancel the season on Thursday if you want Gary. Everyone lose. Everyone. This league needs to learn what the other major leagues have learned. Go through the motion however slowly that may be and might take.

 

[Ola]

Strickland from St Louis
What a surprise

Yeah, at the same time, I kind of agree with him.

Take Calgary for example. What the F were they doing?

Teams will be dealing away players in the coming couple of years, like no matter what. Boston has won a cup because they set themselves up to be in good shape after the last lockout. Detroit and Colorado has undoubtedly done the same thing. Both teams has almost their entire "core" tied up and 10-15m in cap space. That's 2-3 very strong pieces per team that they can add in the coming yeras. Calgary put themselves in cap hell and gave up any kind of mobility to get Hudler and Wideman...

 

[RangerBoy]

Gary Lawless spoke to Gary Bettman a little while ago for an article. They have a relationship so the NHL is using Lawless to leak for them.

I picked Saturday January 5th Day #112 as the day this BS ends but it doesn't look likely.

In the NHL proposals,the floor has changed. A team has to spend $44M.

We are proposing that a Club's Lower Limit obligation be satisfied without reference to (or inclusion of) performance bonuses. This will effectively increase the minimum commitment of actual compensation paid by the "Lower Limit Clubs" to Players. The proposal acknowledges the League's agreement to a request made by the NHLPA earlier in our negotiations.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=643572

The PA wants a higher cap because they want the free agents in the summer of 2013 to have a market.

You can see the NHL's point of view and the PA's point of view. The same issue will continue to happen. The big market teams will push up the upper limit and the smaller market teams will have a tough time keeping up. It will a 10 year CBA with an opt out after 7 or 8. Some teams will have a tough time keeping. Revenue sharing is being increased from $150M to $200M but 7 or 8 more teams will be eligible. That's no help.

 

[Ola]

Gary Lawless spoke to Gary Bettman a little while ago for an article. They have a relationship so the NHL is using Lawless to leak for them.

I picked Saturday January 5th Day #112 as the day this BS ends but it doesn't look likely.

In the NHL proposals,the floor has changed. A team has to spend $44M.



http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=643572

The PA wants a higher cap because they want the free agents in the summer of 2013 to have a market.

You can see the NHL's point of view and the PA's point of view. The same issue will continue to happen. The big market teams will push up the upper limit and the smaller market teams will have a tough time keeping up. It will a 10 year CBA with an opt out after 7 or 8. Some teams will have a tough time keeping. Revenue sharing is being increased from $150M to $200M but 7 or 8 more teams will be eligible. That's no help.

We have touched upon this before when talking about roll backs vs artificial roll back with escrow, and this just shows how important this issue is for the PA and how much a large artificial roll back sucks for the PA.

I am sure the PA has done the numbers on this, I tried to do it in June this summer (http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51705295&postcount=773) simplyfing and guessing alot of numbers, but came up with the numbers that a FA in 2013 (RFA/UFA) basically would get 50% less with a large artificial roll back through escrow. Given that around 25% of all players (if not more) are FA's that is a large number of pissed off members next summer...

The principle is simple. The cap goes down 15%, and a team has what on avg like 20% of cap space each summer. A ton of room to resign the FA's is lost. The big names always get signed, but the vet destined to get 2-3m for a depth role in many many many cases will end up getting nothing at all or league minimum instead. You have 15-20 teams scrambling to get under.

I doubt the PA would do it, but if they can't get Bettman to move of 60m for next year, they should put a 5-7.5% rollback or something on the table just to give the FA's next summer room.

These last days has shown just how big of a issue this is for the PA and how much a big artificial roll back sucks for the PA like we concluded back in June already. Suprised to not see more talk about this in the media.

 

[BlueshirtBlitz]

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/story/2013-01-03/nhl-lockout-news-cba-negotations-disclaimer-variance-deadline-hockey-strike?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=jessespector

There you go...

Makes me sick.

 

[Trxjw]

You can see the NHL's point of view and the PA's point of view. The same issue will continue to happen. The big market teams will push up the upper limit and the smaller market teams will have a tough time keeping up. It will a 10 year CBA with an opt out after 7 or 8. Some teams will have a tough time keeping. Revenue sharing is being increased from $150M to $200M but 7 or 8 more teams will be eligible. That's no help.

This is the real problem, and it's why this is going to continue to happen every 8 years. You just can't keep a league trending upward with so much dead weight dragging you back to the bottom every time the CBA needs to be renegotiated. I can't believe that there are people out there who are advocating expansion.

 

[broadwayblue]

The cap debate is its own big ball of stupid, with the NHL seeking a $60 million limit for the next full season, and the NHLPA asking for $65 million per team. Since there is an agreement that escrow will not be capped, and since Chris Johnston of the Canadian Press reported that the salary floor would be set at $44 million regardless of where the cap winds up, the actual dollar figure only serves to limit or enhance the roster flexibility of the richest teams. Players are going to get the same amount of actual dollars (50 percent of hockey-related revenue. Remember that fight?) no matter what, so the only benefit of a lower cap would be to rivals of teams like the Vancouver Canucks, who have $55.4 million worth of cap hits committed to 13 players for 2013-14, and would have to scramble like crazy to comply. The Montreal Canadiens, already in the midst of a rebuilding project, have $60.2 million — over the league’s proposed cap — committed to 16 players.

The league, then, is targeting its marquee teams in hopes of somehow sticking it to the players, who are going to get their money regardless. Great idea.

There you go...

Pretty much confirms what we already knew, but ridiculous nonetheless.

 

[RangerBoy]

Bettman doesn't like widening the cap gap in 13-14. The PA has proposed leaving the floor at $44M and increasing cap to $65M. Gary has said no so far.

 

[broadwayblue]

Bettman doesn't like widening the cap gap in 13-14. The PA has proposed leaving the floor at $44M and increasing cap to $65M. Gary has said no so far.

Well the PA has lowered their demand from 70M to 65M, and they don't appear to be willing to go much/any lower. Perhaps they can split the difference. One can only hope they don't kill the season because a handful of small market teams want to screw the marquee franchises over.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Both sides need to take a step back and look at the big picture here. They've both have gotten over-enamored with minor details and hurt feelings. I've never seen such a whiny, childish pissing match since the Sidney Crosby winter classic concussion. Grow up.

I remember when I was happy to be an NHL fan because the players where so much more honorable than other sports and the game was a pure exhibition of talent and passion. Both of those things are going down the drain, and those who unfortunately depend on them to make a living are paying for it dearly.

Someone needs to step up and make a stand - be it an owner, a player... someone has to stop this nonsense and get a deal done so we can halfheartedly watch what has become a tarnished excuse for a major sports league.

All you have to envision is a mediator going back and forth to two separate rooms relaying information like some kind of deranged bike messenger in a suit to realize that this entire process is conducted by two fools who really don't have the best interest of the game in mind, but just their overblown egos with paychecks to match.

 

[nevesis]

Both sides need to take a step back and look at the big picture here. They've both have gotten over-enamored with minor details and hurt feelings. I've never seen such a whiny, childish pissing match since the Sidney Crosby winter classic concussion. Grow up.

I remember when I was happy to be an NHL fan because the players where so much more honorable than other sports and the game was a pure exhibition of talent and passion. Both of those things are going down the drain, and those who unfortunately depend on them to make a living are paying for it dearly.

Someone needs to step up and make a stand - be it an owner, a player... someone has to stop this nonsense and get a deal done so we can halfheartedly watch what has become a tarnished excuse for a major sports league.

All you have to envision is a mediator going back and forth to two separate rooms relaying information like some kind of deranged bike messenger in a suit to realize that this entire process is conducted by two fools who really don't have the best interest of the game in mind, but just their overblown egos with paychecks to match.

Great post.

 

[mas0764]

Bettman doesn't like widening the cap gap in 13-14. The PA has proposed leaving the floor at $44M and increasing cap to $65M. Gary has said no so far.

I don't understand that one.

If you've agreed to give the players 50%, what's the difference? You're paying it anyway.

 

[RTnyr5]

Hey guys, new to the boards, but have been following for a few years. Look forward to talking some hockey and no more cba talk pretty soon.

My personal opinion is we see hockey by the 19th ... the deal is way to close now at this point for minor details to hold it up. I think the players realize that the deal the NHL has on the table now is much better than anyone anticipated they could get before the lockout started, and thats a credit to fehr, and why there are still behind him in fighting for these last few things, as pointless as they may seem. but push comes to shove, i think the players as a whole will realize - take the last remaining offer from the league and drop the puck.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

This is the real problem, and it's why this is going to continue to happen every 8 years. You just can't keep a league trending upward with so much dead weight dragging you back to the bottom every time the CBA needs to be renegotiated. I can't believe that there are people out there who are advocating expansion.

Yup - and one of the more ironic things is this is direct blow back for the manifest destiny shared by both sides throughout the 90's.

 

[egelband]

darkest before the dawn?

at least we have a dropdead date...pain until the 11th and then freedom. or a happy surprise within the week.

 

[Kane One]

I don't understand that one.

If you've agreed to give the players 50%, what's the difference? You're paying it anyway.

And what should they basing the 50% off of? A half season?

 

[turcotte8]

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/slaps...ws_talks_idc4uLyMBvdi0wtRMC6yCM#axzz2H1pOjaoc

"Gary Bettman infuriated players across the table from him at NHL headquarters on Thursday — and, by extension, NHLPA membership — by claiming that a number of general managers had told him they regret some of the contracts they’d previously handed out and would welcome the opportunity to “dismantle” their teams in order to meet the steep drop to the league’s proposed $60 million cap for 2013-14, sources have told The Post.

The players responded with a mixture of anger and skepticism, demanding to know the identity of these alleged GM’s. Bettman refused to name the straw men in seeking to counter the players’ position that adopting a $60M cap — even with two amnesty buyouts — would be punitive against big-market, big-spending franchises."


So according to Gary the GM's want to dismantle their teams.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

No according to PA ,, Brooks doesn't even attempt to hide his bias

 

[BBKers]

No according to PA ,, Brooks doesn't even attempt to hide his bias

Good for him. And you meant to say?

 

[NYR Viper]

I took a look at most of the teams across the league and it is difficult to find a team that wouldn't welcome an opportunity to get out from under at least one contract.

Thomas
Lecavalier
Stajan
Gomez
Bourque
Frolik
Redden
Pronger
Komisarek
Connolly
Leino
Kaberle
Luongo
Ballard
Heatley
Horcoff
Samuelsson

Of course teams would welcome the opportunity to buy those players out and move on with the cap space.

 

[GAGLine]

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/slaps...ws_talks_idc4uLyMBvdi0wtRMC6yCM#axzz2H1pOjaoc

"Gary Bettman infuriated players across the table from him at NHL headquarters on Thursday — and, by extension, NHLPA membership — by claiming that a number of general managers had told him they regret some of the contracts they’d previously handed out and would welcome the opportunity to “dismantle†their teams in order to meet the steep drop to the league’s proposed $60 million cap for 2013-14, sources have told The Post.

The players responded with a mixture of anger and skepticism, demanding to know the identity of these alleged GM’s. Bettman refused to name the straw men in seeking to counter the players’ position that adopting a $60M cap — even with two amnesty buyouts — would be punitive against big-market, big-spending franchises."


So according to Gary the GM's want to dismantle their teams.

The teams want to dismantle, but they didn't want to allow buyouts initially. So how exactly did they think they would get it done?

 

[trueblue9441]

So basically:

-The players specifically requested something
-The league agreed
-The players figured out that the thing they want might not be used in the WAY they want
-The players get butthurt and don't want to cooperate anymore

Pretty much the entire lockout in a microcosm.


that sums it up entirely..

the PA is just stupid

 

[silverfish]

So basically:

-The players specifically requested something
-The league agreed
-The players figured out that the thing they want might not be used in the WAY they want
-The players get butthurt and don't want to cooperate anymore

Pretty much the entire lockout in a microcosm.


that sums it up entirely..

the PA is just stupid

It's easy to paint the picture to blame one side.

Everyone needs to step back and realize how wrong both sides have been this entire time.

 

[Pizza]

Both sides need to take a step back and look at the big picture here. They've both have gotten over-enamored with minor details and hurt feelings. I've never seen such a whiny, childish pissing match since the Sidney Crosby winter classic concussion. Grow up.

Great post.

This is the problem in a nutshell. Both sides have lacked the ability to look at the big picture. You hope that in the end it does not break down to this: a pissing contest about egos, but that's probably what we are ultimately dealing with. Greed + Ego = People factor. Add to that the shear weight of a business model that does not work well. Between the economic advantages some markets have over others, the players salaries determined by the market, the revenue sharing, etc., etc. I'm just not sold on the idea that the league as it stands is a viable entity when you factor all this stuff in. The will does not seem to be there to make it so. IMO the probability of a deal is no better than 50/50. Probably less.

 

[NYRKindms]

So basically:

-The players specifically requested something
-The league agreed
-The players figured out that the thing they want might not be used in the WAY they want
-The players get butthurt and don't want to cooperate anymore

Pretty much the entire lockout in a microcosm.


that sums it up entirely..

the PA is just stupid

This was pasted in the main thread. this isn't what happened at all

The issue came up during the cap discussions. Bettman said the GMs want to blow up the teams and get under the 60M in year 2. Don't forget there are A LOT of contracts that expire in the next year. All of those players would have to get resigned and fit under the cap. It isn't the buyouts that worry the PA it is the cap set for year 2. Gary was basically saying several GMs welcome the 60m the league wants and they don't feel pressure to move from that figure. The NHLPA sees this for what it is. loss of salary for UFA singing in year 2 and a huge glut of players available. Guys will have to take league min in order to fit on teams etc.