OT: 2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part X: Is There Any Hope? Edition

[The Lunatic Fridge]

It's alright guys, tomorrow is my birthday and coincidentally tomorrow is the "meeting" thats supposed to end the lockout. I'd say thats an appropriate bday gift, right?

 

[McSauer]

It's alright guys, tomorrow is my birthday and coincidentally tomorrow is the "meeting" thats supposed to end the lockout. I'd say thats an appropriate bday gift, right?

Makes sense to me

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

maybe, might have to use it on Gaborik if the 2013 cap settles at 60. I suspect the PA will push back on that and it will settle on 63-65, which means they should be able to keep Gabs and ditch Wade.

Uhh, no. It's called trading if it even comes to that.

 

[Vinnyt88]

I have rarely ever posted so I do not know if I am doing this correct but I just wanted to say this. I hope you guys cut me some slack. I am surprised that so many people keep posting that the players should just take this and the lockout is about to end every time they start negotiating again. They would not wait this long and risk so much to settle before they take right to the bitter end. They will have a 48 game season but there will be no CBA until the last possible moment at the 11th hour. Feir will make sure he squeezes every once out of the owners he can. He still has about two weeks to do that and he will use every minute of it. I hope I am wrong but I guess we will just have to wait and see.

 

[Dr. Ogrodnick]

Uhh, no. It's called trading if it even comes to that.

Obviously that's the best case scenario if it comes to that, but with a lot of teams needing to scramble to get under 60 mil, the rangers might not be able to clear the cap space they need through a trade.

 

[broadwayblue]

Obviously that's the best case scenario if it comes to that, but with a lot of teams needing to scramble to get under 60 mil, the rangers might not be able to clear the cap space they need through a trade.

I'm not sure exactly what we're talking about here...but you can always trade desirable assets for draft picks and/or prospects. So if they wanted to clear cap space it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Deathdealer]

isnt the first year cap 70mil and a redan buyout?

 

[broadwayblue]

isnt the first year cap 70mil and a redan buyout?

Think buyouts are before next season. And a Redden buyout doesn't really help us if the cap is only 60M next season. It only helps in as much as preventing his salary from counting against the cap...which is possible with the new rules. But we'd still have issues getting under 60M. Gotta hope/believe they settle on something a bit higher.

 

[Dr. Ogrodnick]

I'm not sure exactly what we're talking about here...but you can always trade desirable assets for draft picks and/or prospects. So if they wanted to clear cap space it wouldn't be an issue.

Normally that's true, but in a season where the cap drops 10 million and a lot of teams having to shed cap to get there, trading a 7 mil salary for picks and prospects might not be an option.

 

[frankthefrowner]

Everyone keeps saying the 11th. This is not going till then the NHL needs to open camp on the 12th. The CBa needs to be finalized in its entirety by the 11th.

I'd say we have until the 5th to come to an agreement.

 

[broadwayblue]

Everyone keeps saying the 11th. This is not going till then the NHL needs to open camp on the 12th. The CBa needs to be finalized in its entirety by the 11th.

I'd say we have until the 5th to come to an agreement.

Pretty sure the last lockout half season ended on the 11th and they got 48 games in.

 

[nyr2k2]

I have rarely ever posted so I do not know if I am doing this correct but I just wanted to say this. I hope you guys cut me some slack. I am surprised that so many people keep posting that the players should just take this and the lockout is about to end every time they start negotiating again. They would not wait this long and risk so much to settle before they take right to the bitter end. They will have a 48 game season but there will be no CBA until the last possible moment at the 11th hour. Feir will make sure he squeezes every once out of the owners he can. He still has about two weeks to do that and he will use every minute of it. I hope I am wrong but I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Your post was fine, AND spot on.

 

[Krams]

It's alright guys, tomorrow is my birthday and coincidentally tomorrow is the "meeting" thats supposed to end the lockout. I'd say thats an appropriate bday gift, right?

I doubt it. There's still a week or so to go before the deadline. Fehr is going to squeeze everything he can out of the NHL.

 

[Zil]

The latest from Brooks:

The focus for the NHLPA in the face-to-face negotiations that are expected to begin here today or tomorrow should and must be on 2013-14. The union’s need in this regard is consistent with the needs of teams (even with one amnesty buyout) that will be pressed up against the NHL’s proposed $60 million cap for next year that represents an immediate decrease of 14.53 percent unheard of in the history of hard-cap pro sports.

The NHL has no right to engineer a transition in which teams that have invested in building winners under the rules of the expired CBA are systematically stripped of their assets and thereby punishes those franchises’ season subscribers who essentially fund the league and have funded the lockout.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/devils/time_come_for_no_honor_league_1wctI2OKtUAj0b8ZtRNhlI

I don't know if they'll get Bettman up to $65 million, but he needs to come up somewhat from $60 million.

 

[RangerBoy]

Look at the NHL proposal from two days ago

Each Club will be entitled to execute up to one “Compliance Buy-Out†prior to the
2013/14 season pursuant to which payments made to the Player will not be charged
against the team’s Cap, but will be charged against the Players’ Share.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/21004/highlights-of-nhls-dec-27-proposal

All it says is the compliance buyout must be completed prior to next season. Nothing about it not being executed when the CBA is completed and before the 2013 season starts. In the NBA,teams are allowed to execute the buyout at anytime as long as the player was under contract when the previous CBA expired. The NBA already had term limits so teams don't have a long time to decide. Its the same structure as the NBA. Counts against the players share. Not against the cap.

 

[RangerBoy]

Pretty sure the last lockout half season ended on the 11th and they got 48 games in.

No. We discussed this a few days ago. The NHL wants an actual CBA in writing this time. In 1995,the NHL and NHLPA reached an understanding on paper and they agreed to put the CBA in writing at a later time. The NHL didn't like how the 1995 CBA was written. It was too late for them to refuse to make a deal.

That's why the NHL sent the PA their vision of the CBA. They spent yesterday looking at every sentence in the NHL CBA proposal. Its a 300 page article.

In that case, the executive said, the players and owners need to reach a new agreement by Jan. 5 or 6. That would leave one week to complete enough of the legal paperwork for the lockout to end, another week for training camp and the season would start on Saturday, Jan. 19.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/inco...id=rss1&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Remember NHL wants more than memorandum of understanding that was signed in '95. Guessing this 300-page proposal addresses that.

https://twitter.com/cotsonika/status/284735334489661441

The PA will want changes so the lawyers will need time to hash out the revisions.

Camps open on the 12th. Season begins on the 19th. Agree to the terms in the deal in writing. Both sides ratify. Takes some time.

 

[RangerBoy]

LB's column today

Such a decrease represents a triple threat in the form of guaranteed double-digit escrow losses plus limited options for free agents and cap teams alike. The Rangers wouldn’t be anywhere close to being in the most difficult shape in the NHL, but Group II’s Ryan McDonagh, Derek Stepan and Carl Hagelin, all coming off Entry Level, would be boxed into one-year bridge deals awaiting arbitration, with eventual deals perhaps costing the Blueshirts more in the long run against the cap, and this with a potential 2014-15 offseason disaster looming. Lose/lose.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/devils/time_come_for_no_honor_league_1wctI2OKtUAj0b8ZtRNhlI

NHL proposal

Rules for Entry Level System, Salary Arbitration and Group 3 Unrestricted Free
Agency will remain unchanged.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/21004/highlights-of-nhls-dec-27-proposal

Article 12 Salary Arbitration

12.1 Eligibility for Player or Club Election of Salary Arbitration.
(a) A Player is eligible for salary arbitration if the Player meets the
qualificat ions set forth in the following chart and in Section 12.1(b) below:
First SPC Signing Age
Minimum Level of Professional
Experience Required to be
Eligible for Salary Arbitration
18-20 4 years professional experience
21 3 years professional experience
22-23 2 years professional experience
24 and older 1 year professional experience

Stepan signed at 20. Needs 1 more year. McDonagh signed at 21. Hagelin signed at 22. Both of them are arb eligible. Its McD's 3rd year pro. Hagelin's 2nd.

 

[RangerBoy]

I don't know if they'll get Bettman up to $65 million, but he needs to come up somewhat from $60 million.

The players complain about escrow. Larry wrote about the players needing to negotiate a cap on escrow. The NBA has a cap on escrow. Its 10%. Any overage comes out of a post career benefits fund which is funded by 1% of the players share.

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Rangerboy, any word if how AHL contracts will be treated against the cap in the NHL's latest offer?

 

[Ardi44]

Rangerboy, any word if how AHL contracts will be treated against the cap in the NHL's latest offer?

i second this question.....was looking at capgeek and based off of what i thought i read of 650k+ counting, it looks like the rangers have guys like miller, mclrath counting. I don't know if EL deals count, or if its for guys like Kolarik who have 1 way deals. Because, if its the latter, we are in good shape. Our "AHL" players are mostly under 600k, whereas our EL prsopsects are the players over the threshold.

 

[alkurtz]

What seems strange to me here is that the league submitted a proposal that would severely hamper the large-market, high-revenue teams. Does this mean that the Rangers, Leafs, Habs, and others willingly went along with this proposal? Or does it indicate that the hardliner, gang of 8, continue to drive the ship? Throughout this whole fiasco, we have had only a few glimpses at what has really gone on behind the scenes at the league. Maybe when and if this torture ends, we will be privy to these internal discussions.

Since, once again, the league retreated from a "final offer," the PA will probably push for a higher figure than $60 million. How could Fehr not with this history to guide him? As we are a high-revenue team it is once again the PA that is fighting for the best interests of Ranger fans. The two sides are inching closer and closer: at some point there has to be not an NHL or a PA proposal, but a meeting ground.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

What Brooks says about the looming cap disaster is right. We have been talking about it for a while now.

Teams will have to decide long and hard during this short season, who they want to build around. Everyone else will become a cap casualty. And most teams will look like they are either in rebuild or transition at that point.

IMO the fat cut here will be:
Gaborik
Del Zotto
Asham
Boyle
Rupp
Pyatt

The priorities will be:
McDonagh
Stepan
Callahan
Lundqvist
Staal
Girardi
Hagelin
Kreider
Stralman (I believe he's beginning to reach his potential)

All of which need new contracts soon enough.

I love Del Zotto's skill level, but he has maturity issues, we already have two of the top shutdown left side defensemen in the league in McDonagh and Staal. Can't have that kind of skill or money on the third pair moving forward.

These are the kind of very difficult decisions that will need to be made.

Can't have Boyle, Rupp, and Asham kind of money on the third and fourth line moving forward.

Del Zotto and Gaborik can bring back good returns. Re-stock the system. There will be teams that need to add salary. Del Zotto would draw interest from a lot of teams. Edmonton, Colorado, Phoenix, Toronto are a few.

Unless he signs a contract that is reasonable.

 

[Levitate]

Why does Del Zotto have "maturity issues"

 

[LORDE]

If and when we move Gabby this place will be clamoring for another scoring threat.

If and when we move Del Z this place will be clamoring for a puck moving d man.

Vicious circle.

 

[RangerBoy]

Rangerboy, any word if how AHL contracts will be treated against the cap in the NHL's latest offer?

NHL proposal in October

Money paid to Players on NHL SPCs (one-ways and two-ways) in another professional league will not be counted against the Players' Share, but all dollars paid in excess of $105,000 will be counted against the NHL Club's Averaged Club Salary for the period during which such Player is being paid under his SPC while playing in another professional league.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=643570

Friday proposal

Money paid (above a defined threshold) to Players on NHL SPCs in another
professional league (e.g., the AHL or a European league) will be charged against the
NHL team’s Cap, but not against the Players’ Share.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/21004/highlights-of-nhls-dec-27-proposal

Brooks wrote

Given the league’s plan to charge cap hits on amounts above $625,000 for AHL players on one-way contracts, the Rangers would use the amnesty buyout on Wade Redden, who has two years at $10 million remaining on his deal.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/rangers/nhl_labor_in_crunch_time_ICgZIclloJF7DFDc5yjZFM

Its not only one-way contracts. Not sure where Brooks got $625,000 from. The NHL proposal didn't include a salary number.

If its $625,000 and the PA accepts,the Rangers are fine for next season. Haley has a $600,000 cap hit.