OT: 2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part X: Is There Any Hope? Edition

[RMcDonagh]

**** Kovalev, I want hockey back.

Who gives a **** about Kovalev. Plus, he sucks. Plus, he's lazy. Plus, he doesn't play defense. Plus, he's old.

The list goes on and on.

 

[Fitzy]

Tortorella would rip Kovalev up and ship what was left of him first class to equidistant latitudes around the world.

But of course e all want a season. 48 games is still screwing us over, but it is consensus better than nothing.

 

[Zil]

Ok you can stop putting words in my mouth now, or you can keep doing so in an attempt to divert focus away from the point I'm making. The point is that they root for a losing team. Is that my problem that they're mad at their teams for being terrible? I don't shove it in anyone's face, so don't shove it in mine.

Whose putting words in your mouth? This all started because you were complaining about rooting for your losing team. Someone pointed out that you're actually pretty lucky and you responded by attacking him for rooting for his team as if he has an inkling of control over their actions. What would you have him do? Become a bandwagon jumper and switch to whoever's winning?

 

[Barnaby]

Whose putting words in your mouth? This all started because you were complaining about rooting for your losing team. Someone pointed out that you're actually pretty lucky and you responded by attacking him for rooting for his team as if he has an inkling of control over their actions. What would you have him do? Become a bandwagon jumper and switch to whoever's winning?

On a side note, that's got to be pretty fun. I wish I could gleefully root for whoever's winning like a simpleton. Instead, I find myself praying for McElroy's safety as he gets sacked 11 times so I don't have to witness another Sanchez debacle...

 

[One Winged Angel]

Whose putting words in your mouth? This all started because you were complaining about rooting for your losing team. Someone pointed out that you're actually pretty lucky and you responded by attacking him for rooting for his team as if he has an inkling of control over their actions. What would you have him do? Become a bandwagon jumper and switch to whoever's winning?

Congrats, pal. You're a pure genius at twisting things around to fit whatever argument you think you actually have. You win, keep fighting the good fight.

I didn't "attack" him, what I said is that I'm sorry that the team he roots for is a perennial cellar dwellers and hasn't won since the first Woodstock, but that's not my fault and I shouldn't have to hear his **** for me being mad at the lethargic play of the giants for the past 2 months. I have as every much of a right to be mad at my team for playing like crap as he does to hold the angst he had towards the Jets. Because the giants won the Super Bowl last year gives him an excuse to tell me to stop whining? Screw that.

Do you realize how ridiculous the two of you sound? It's not like I went out of my way to talk **** about the jets and then complained about the giants. Go back and read my first post again, since it's more than clear that you read from his response and on.

End of story.

 

[Zil]

Congrats, pal. You're a pure genius at twisting things around to fit whatever argument you think you actually have. You win, keep fighting the good fight.

I didn't "attack" him, what I said is that I'm sorry that the team he roots for is a perennial cellar dwellers and hasn't won since the first Woodstock, but that's not my fault and I shouldn't have to hear his **** for me being mad at the lethargic play of the giants for the past 2 months. I have as every much of a right to be mad at my team for playing like crap as he does to hold the angst he had towards the Jets. Because the giants won the Super Bowl last year gives him an excuse to tell me to stop whining? Screw that.

Do you realize how ridiculous the two of you sound? It's not like I went out of my way to talk **** about the jets and then complained about the giants. Go back and read my first post again, since it's more than clear that you read from his response and on.

End of story.

You *****ed about the Giants and then went off on him for innocuously pointing out that things could be much worse. No twisting required.

 

[The Lunatic Fridge]

There's clearly something the coaches know about kovalev that the scout geniuses on HFBoards don't know. I don't think kovalev would just randomly call up a bunch of ranger players for absolutely no reason and go skating with them...

 

[One Winged Angel]

You *****ed about the Giants and then went off on him for innocuously pointing out that things could be much worse. No twisting required.

No, what you said if you once again go back and actually re-read the thread is that you accused me of blaming him for the Jets front office woes as if he has a factor in determining the ineptitude of Tannenbaum and co.

I went off on someone for telling me that I shouldn't be complaining the Giants play. As a long time fan of the team, I have every damn right to and no Jet fan, whether you, him or the next one in line is going to tell me that I can or can not complain about their far less than stellar efforts in the past about 2 months.

I'm not telling him that he shouldn't be complaining about the Jets and the atrocity that is their franchise right now. He has every right to.

Would you be happy if some Islander fan came along and told you to stop complaining about the Rangers if they were in the midst of a major slide that could have them missing the playoffs? I'll put a hefty sum of money on the answer to that question being a resounding no.

So don't tell me that I don't have a right to defend myself in a situation like this. Go take the self-righteous act someplace else. I'm done.

 

[turcotte8]

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Jack+Todd+Ugly+Canadians+show+again/7738933/story.html

"At this point, we’re hoping for a shutdown. Blow it up and start over, without a half-dozen dead-weight teams and the man Larry Brooks calls the Canceler-in-Chief, because if Bettman announces the cancellation of a second full season, he should announce his own resignation at the same time.

If the deal you killed a season to get was so bad that you had to kill another entire season to get a different deal, then I’m sorry, but you’re an idiot. If the owners have a shred of intestinal fortitude, they’ll tell Bettman not to let the door hit him on the way out."

 

[One Winged Angel]

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sports/Jack+Todd+Ugly+Canadians+show+again/7738933/story.html

"At this point, we’re hoping for a shutdown. Blow it up and start over, without a half-dozen dead-weight teams and the man Larry Brooks calls the Canceler-in-Chief, because if Bettman announces the cancellation of a second full season, he should announce his own resignation at the same time.

If the deal you killed a season to get was so bad that you had to kill another entire season to get a different deal, then I’m sorry, but you’re an idiot. If the owners have a shred of intestinal fortitude, they’ll tell Bettman not to let the door hit him on the way out."

This highlighted part is one of the best posts I've seen regarding this entire lockout.

Great post, man.

 

[Zil]

No, what you said if you once again go back and actually re-read the thread is that you accused me of blaming him for the Jets front office woes as if he has a factor in determining the ineptitude of Tannenbaum and co.

I went off on someone for telling me that I shouldn't be complaining the Giants play. As a long time fan of the team, I have every damn right to and no Jet fan, whether you, him or the next one in line is going to tell me that I can or can not complain about their far less than stellar efforts in the past about 2 months.

I'm not telling him that he shouldn't be complaining about the Jets and the atrocity that is their franchise right now. He has every right to.

Would you be happy if some Islander fan came along and told you to stop complaining about the Rangers if they were in the midst of a major slide that could have them missing the playoffs? I'll put a hefty sum of money on the answer to that question being a resounding no.

So don't tell me that I don't have a right to defend myself in a situation like this. Go take the self-righteous act someplace else. I'm done.

Sorry, imagining a scenario wherein the Rangers had just won two cups in five years is tough enough. You want me to imagine getting really upset over a single late-season slide right after that? Really? That doesn't strike you the least bit self-entitled? I'd have to say that I'd understand where the hypothetical Islanders fan was coming from if I started moaning in that scenario.

 

[LORDE]

Merry Lack of Friggin Hockey Christmas Everyone!

 

[iamitter]

I love how everyone thinks Bettman is calling the shots here and the owners are furious at him.

The owners are the ones who tell him what to ask for. They're not going to fire him for doing his job. I'm sure he'd like to do anything possible to get the NHL season started, but that's not his job. His job is to get the NHL season started as close to the owners' terms as possible.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Sorry, imagining a scenario wherein the Rangers had just won two cups in five years is tough enough.

I'll agree to that.

You want me to imagine getting really upset over a single late-season slide right after that? Really? That doesn't strike you the least bit self-entitled? I'd have to say that I'd understand where the hypothetical Islanders fan was coming from if I started moaning in that scenario.

I'm self-entitled for being mad at the Giants for playing like absolute **** as defending champions?

That doesn't strike you as ridiculous and completely asinine?

I could ask the same questions you're asking me here and have the same exact merit, if not more for asking them.

Honestly, this is completely ridiculous and I'm done explaining myself to you. If the roles were reversed, you'd be saying the same things I'm saying right now. Have the last word if you'd like, I don't care, but I'm not further hijacking this thread to continue a pointless argument which should have never ensued in the first place.

 

[Zil]

I'm self-entitled for being mad at the Giants for playing like absolute **** as defending champions?

That doesn't strike you as ridiculous and completely asinine?

I could ask the same questions you're asking me here and have the same exact merit, if not more for asking them.

No, it's self-entitled that you reacted in a completely abrasive manner to a Jets fan pointing out how lucky you've been as a Giants fan. You're allowed to be mad at the Giants. It's just absurd that you launched into that guy for doing nothing more than putting things in perspective.

 

[Kane One]

Sorry, CM Lundqvist, but you were definitely at fault there..

That would be like a Red Wings fan crying about a loss, and then and Islander fan says, "At least you're not an Islander fan." But instead of the Red Wings fan saying, "Yeah, you know what? You're right," he says, "Well at least we aren't a ****-show like the Islanders."

Yeah, that would be a dick move by that Red Wings fan.

 

[BBKers]

Just spoke at great length with a person pretty High within the NHL that is a childhood friend. He has no idea that I frequent hockey-based chatforums and was therefore very frank and open. He thinks there that will be a 50-game season, or at Least he said the odds were 90%for/10%against. He believes the players in the end will cave in since they are losing "crazy money now without a real reason"and they will never get it back, but that there are a few illusional concessions to be made by owners in order to patch things up and save face. Says the window is until January 6th or 7th - at the latest. And that there will most likely be some kind buyouts and probably a softer way of getting to 50/50 than what has been presented so far for next year. Says Nashville kind of "**** in the bed" when signing Weber and that that will cause some movement to take place from there in the not too distant future. He talked a bit about his team as well, but I will not get into that. Says that the teams really making money are ready to play hockey right now and that some of them are "frustrated"- but that this is totally a lockout based on the smaller, poorer teams needs and that they are basically calling the shots here. They are pushing to get every inch they can until a deal is struck at the last minute. He says both owners an players both have made their share of mistakes in the process, but that this length of the lockout was inevitable considering the different needs within the league and how far some teams are willing to go to get what they deem is necessary for survival. Says that the union really is playing second fiddle and have no real say on the outcome - as long as they are not pressed as far as they can be. Very interesting discussion...

 

[RangerBoy]

The players have already caved. They offered a straight % of 50/50. I know it won't be a true 50/50 in the first few years of the CBA because of transition payments but it will be 50/50 for the majority of the long term CBA. The players offered a term limit of 8 years. All of the indications are the players aren't against the 10 year CBA. The players wanted a fixed amount each year. Gave up on that. Then they wanted a guarantee that their share could not decrease. Gave up on that. In July,Adrian Dater reported the players wouldn't go below 52%. They did. Even the demand of $67.25M cap never going down has no chance of being accepted. The owners have already won. They're just waiting a little more to extract some more before making a deal.

 

[BBKers]

The players have already caved. They offered a straight % of 50/50. I know it won't be a true 50/50 in the first few years of the CBA because of transition payments but it will be 50/50 for the majority of the long term CBA. The players offered a term limit of 8 years. All of the indications are the players aren't against the 10 year CBA. The players wanted a fixed amount each year. Gave up on that. Then they wanted a guarantee that their share could not decrease. Gave up on that. In July,Adrian Dater reported the players wouldn't go below 52%. They did. Even the demand of $67.25M cap never going down has no chance of being accepted. The owners have already won. They're just waiting a little more to extract some more before making a deal.

Exactly...

 

[Dr. Ogrodnick]

I love how everyone thinks Bettman is calling the shots here and the owners are furious at him.

The owners are the ones who tell him what to ask for. They're not going to fire him for doing his job. I'm sure he'd like to do anything possible to get the NHL season started, but that's not his job. His job is to get the NHL season started as close to the owners' terms as possible.

Well, the way it's structured with the NHL still controlling the Coyotes, Bettman only needs 7 other owners to support him and he can pretty much do what he wants. They publicly present a uniform front, but you know some owners (Dolan) are pretty unhappy with how things have unfolded, and would oust Bettman if they could.

 

[DutchShamrock]

The players have already caved. They offered a straight % of 50/50. I know it won't be a true 50/50 in the first few years of the CBA because of transition payments but it will be 50/50 for the majority of the long term CBA. The players offered a term limit of 8 years. All of the indications are the players aren't against the 10 year CBA. The players wanted a fixed amount each year. Gave up on that. Then they wanted a guarantee that their share could not decrease. Gave up on that. In July,Adrian Dater reported the players wouldn't go below 52%. They did. Even the demand of $67.25M cap never going down has no chance of being accepted. The owners have already won. They're just waiting a little more to extract some more before making a deal.

This isn't about the money for the players. Not at this point. They conceded 7% of revenues for the next 8-10 years. Conceded money with ahl contracts... actually the better way to put it is they players aren't holding out for money reasons. It is over contractual issues. Its a minor difference but key. They aren't caving because of the amount they will lose. They are holding on for a compromise on the terms for contracts.

 

[haohmaru]

This isn't about the money for the players. Not at this point. They conceded 7% of revenues for the next 8-10 years. Conceded money with ahl contracts... actually the better way to put it is they players aren't holding out for money reasons. It is over contractual issues. Its a minor difference but key. They aren't caving because of the amount they will lose. They are holding on for a compromise on the terms for contracts.

I disagree. They didn't "concede" anything - there is no CBA and whatever came before doesn't exist.

I do agree that the primary issue here has to be contracts and free agency.

 

[Megustaelhockey]

Just spoke at great length with a person pretty High within the NHL that is a childhood friend. He has no idea that I frequent hockey-based chatforums and was therefore very frank and open. He thinks there that will be a 50-game season, or at Least he said the odds were 90%for/10%against. He believes the players in the end will cave in since they are losing "crazy money now without a real reason"and they will never get it back, but that there are a few illusional concessions to be made by owners in order to patch things up and save face. Says the window is until January 6th or 7th - at the latest. And that there will most likely be some kind buyouts and probably a softer way of getting to 50/50 than what has been presented so far for next year. Says Nashville kind of "**** in the bed" when signing Weber and that that will cause some movement to take place from there in the not too distant future. He talked a bit about his team as well, but I will not get into that. Says that the teams really making money are ready to play hockey right now and that some of them are "frustrated"- but that this is totally a lockout based on the smaller, poorer teams needs and that they are basically calling the shots here. They are pushing to get every inch they can until a deal is struck at the last minute. He says both owners an players both have made their share of mistakes in the process, but that this length of the lockout was inevitable considering the different needs within the league and how far some teams are willing to go to get what they deem is necessary for survival. Says that the union really is playing second fiddle and have no real say on the outcome - as long as they are not pressed as far as they can be. Very interesting discussion...

I'm glad you felt you had such an interesting discussion with your contact, but what he's saying is totally unacceptable to me. What kind of asylum is this league where the small-market ****face teams that can't break even are the ones telling the NYR, PHI, TOR, MTL, VANs of the world that they can't play?

If you can't make any money in the market you're in, get out of the sport or move somewhere you can.

 

[One Winged Angel]

The players have already caved. They offered a straight % of 50/50. I know it won't be a true 50/50 in the first few years of the CBA because of transition payments but it will be 50/50 for the majority of the long term CBA. The players offered a term limit of 8 years. All of the indications are the players aren't against the 10 year CBA. The players wanted a fixed amount each year. Gave up on that. Then they wanted a guarantee that their share could not decrease. Gave up on that. In July,Adrian Dater reported the players wouldn't go below 52%. They did. Even the demand of $67.25M cap never going down has no chance of being accepted. The owners have already won. They're just waiting a little more to extract some more before making a deal.

I hope you're right, RB. I trust you more than anyone I know on this stuff, you're usually spot on with it.

I hope a deal is done soon. It would be a great late christmas gift.

 

[BBKers]

I'm glad you felt you had such an interesting discussion with your contact, but what he's saying is totally unacceptable to me. What kind of asylum is this league where the small-market ****face teams that can't break even are the ones telling the NYR, PHI, TOR, MTL, VANs of the world that they can't play?

If you can't make any money in the market you're in, get out of the sport or move somewhere you can.

I am sure you are not alone holding this opinion. I can gladly align to it as well. But this is what he said... he was quite candid and not happy about it either. Hint - he is in top management on an original 6 NHL team that makes money.