20-21 Season Tank Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

[VNCVR]

You want to trade B.Sutter and a prospect to another team who will give us either crap prospects or late picks or both....for a player UFA by years end? What exactly do you think we are gaining?

Huh no the picks were to get rid of players like Roussel, and Beagle. People who have more years on their contracts and who serve even less purpose. Sutter at next to no cost at the deadline, has value to a playoff team. I would not add a pick to him.

I am not looking to gain anything from any player I trade, besides capspace.

 

[VNCVR]

Other than Myers (who can fill a useful role) aren’t all the horrid contracts gone in two years? Considering our two elite young guys, Petey and Hughes, aren’t going to be entering their primes to at least then, maybe it’s best to ride out the bad contracts for a couple years and keep our draft picks. Heck let’s add picks!

I believe you need time to add players (after you rid of bad contracts) as they dont suddenly become available when a team is ready. Also I think these young core players on a solid well built team could lead a team deep sooner than that, though my first point is my main one

 

[VNCVR]

The point isn’t whether these assets are available.

They always are.

The point is that we don’t have the capspace available NOR do we have surplus assets to trade for immediate help.

Yeah that's why my proposals all state that you need to pay the price, whatever the price is to dump a couple short contracts remaining and trade players who need to be traded. I am 1000% sure that a GM that walked in could shed enough capspace to add these pieces. Benning is capable as well, he's simply not doing it, part of me thinks that due to his drafting saving him, he may be more reluctant to not give up picks to fix his mistakes. Especially not significant pieces like multiple 2nd rounders.

We have only had one untradeable contract. One. Eriksson. Untradeable contracts are some of the most rare things in the NHL. Honestly I think Skinner and Eriksson from before are two of best candidates for untradeable. And honestly Eriksson was, but they didn't feel he was worth trading him due to it not being the difference, it was not worth the price to them, its not that he wasn't tradeable. They could have traded a high 1st, and a good prospect and got rid of him, possible anyway. But if its not going to be enough of a difference maker. However trading the remaining short contracts on this team that are not pulling their weight would have a MASSIVE impact on this team, when combined with the addition of players brought in to replace them. The difference, the team has a core thats arguably ready now and most pieces in place

A team that doesn't have this, cannot generally afford to give up such pieces

 

[Pavel96]

The Tank Thread’s Strategy (just my opinion, feel free to improve!):

Vision (where we want to go): To compete for the Stanley Cup

Goals (how we know we are on the way there):
· Jim Benning and Weisbrod Fired
· T Green Fired
· Acquire more prospects that can help the team in the future

Core Activities (how we will get there):
· Trading away as much garbage on the roster as possible, without taking on expensive garbage
· Acquiring draft picks and/or expiring contracts
· Losing as many games as possible in the process
· Not trading away draft picks (if this can be considered an activity)

 

[SamInVan]

Are you suggesting that Brandon Sutter doesn't have value to a playoff team at a cost next to nothing? I am not sure how to debate this.

Honestly could care less about debating B.Sutter...if you can get picks for him by all means do it but he is gone either way.

 

[zcaptain]

My mind is in pretty much in melt down this year. Covid, Ferland, Flat Cap, and useless signings have pretty much done me in. I am, like many here, a huge Canuck supporter, and as such have always taken the position, that what ever is best for the Canucks should be done.

This year, because of the loss of Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli, we have taken a huge step back. (As would any team that lost 3 starters). Yes, I blame this on Benning for the most part, but it is not what this thread is about, so I will try to keep my opening statement, to addressing the tank.

"The Tank". I have been on several crusades to tank over the past few years, and have been pretty much shut down over on the CDC site, which I am sure would happen again if I tried to start again. So here I am, in all my glory.

I thought, with some small changes, we could have maintained our middle of the pack team, over the next several years, until the young core had matured, but with the losses, I do not see that happening, and ignoring my anger for a minute, there is no point in being half way in, which could happen with a lucky winning streak, causing us to not be in the playoffs, but not being high enough in the top 10 to add high end 1st and 2nd picks.

So, with that being said, I have identified 4 pieces that by moving out will add to our draft picks/prospects, and will help in preventing any "lucky" winning streaks, we normally go on, just about the time we are cooked, and getting low enough to make a difference.

But before naming these players, it is important to keep in mind, that a top 5 finish, not only allows for a premium pick in the first round, but an early pick in the 2nd, which is normally one of the picks where players that are in that group of probably 10 picks that could be either late 1st/early 2nds. Plus a 3rd pick, that could be a very good faller out of the second round. Anyways, I digress........

Anyways, there is nothing earth shattering about my 4 players, I would move. They are Pearson, Sutter, Virtanen, and Gaudette. Why these guys?

Pearson because he is UFA and has some marketability, the fact that if traded, he will weaken the team offensively, and defensively, so it is a double win.

Sutter, because of his F/O's and his defensive abilities, and as a UFA will do much the same thing and weaken the team defensively. A win...albeit small.

Virtanen...well be is a bit of an enigma, and if you just look at his stats, he is a very inconsistent player, but one with mid team upside. A year ago 18 and 18, in a shortened season. This year, nada! Why?

Gaudette, this young guy, has potential upside, but needs to be put in a purely offensive role, which he "may" excell at. IMO, he has some value, but the long he is left in the role the Canucks put him in, the more his value, diminshes. So, I would move him now.

There is a 5th person, I would move, which is Roussel, and I would retain on him, and add a 2022 mid round pick, to move him off the books. I am not sure that he does not have some value, but I have no idea what that might be, so moving him depends what the ask is.

Now, moving the 4 or 5 players, would surely slow down any point totals, and moves a little cap out, which would not be gone at the end of the season.....about 3.5 million to 6.5 million, depending what the cost of Roussel, but it would help shuffle things next year.

That is about the extent of any player movements I would do this TDL.

Now there are 2 things that are directly related to our take, and moving forwards, one being the removal of Benning, who I have been a big supporter of, but who I think, does not do anything well other than draft, where I completely differ from those that think otherwise.

The second thing I would do after the season is over, is remove Green and his assistants, who I believe, do not manage the defensive scheme very well at all, nor any of the special teams. (I am very upset at this part of our team, and feel that even if it is not directly attributed to Green, he is in charge, and will not make the changes, therefore he gets the credit, whether positive or negative...this is negative)

The last and final thing I would do is, hire a President of Hockey operations, and a handful of assistant GM's who would be in charge of individual departments....such as, amateur scouting, professional scouting, capology, and player development.

Conclusion:

I am in support of the Tank

 

[SamInVan]

We have only had one untradeable contract. One. Eriksson.

Then explain why Beagle, Sutter and Rousel are still here? That is $10m we could have used for Tanev and Toffoli.

 

[I am toxic]

My mind is in pretty much in melt down this year. Covid, Ferland, Flat Cap, and useless signings have pretty much done me in. I am, like many here, a huge Canuck supporter, and as such have always taken the position, that what ever is best for the Canucks should be done.

This year, because of the loss of Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli, we have taken a huge step back. (As would any team that lost 3 starters). Yes, I blame this on Benning for the most part, but it is not what this thread is about, so I will try to keep my opening statement, to addressing the tank.

"The Tank". I have been on several crusades to tank over the past few years, and have been pretty much shut down over on the CDC site, which I am sure would happen again if I tried to start again. So here I am, in all my glory.

I thought, with some small changes, we could have maintained our middle of the pack team, over the next several years, until the young core had matured, but with the losses, I do not see that happening, and ignoring my anger for a minute, there is no point in being half way in, which could happen with a lucky winning streak, causing us to not be in the playoffs, but not being high enough in the top 10 to add high end 1st and 2nd picks.

So, with that being said, I have identified 4 pieces that by moving out will add to our draft picks/prospects, and will help in preventing any "lucky" winning streaks, we normally go on, just about the time we are cooked, and getting low enough to make a difference.

But before naming these players, it is important to keep in mind, that a top 5 finish, not only allows for a premium pick in the first round, but an early pick in the 2nd, which is normally one of the picks where players that are in that group of probably 10 picks that could be either late 1st/early 2nds. Plus a 3rd pick, that could be a very good faller out of the second round. Anyways, I digress........

Anyways, there is nothing earth shattering about my 4 players, I would move. They are Pearson, Sutter, Virtanen, and Gaudette. Why these guys?

Pearson because he is UFA and has some marketability, the fact that if traded, he will weaken the team offensively, and defensively, so it is a double win.

Sutter, because of his F/O's and his defensive abilities, and as a UFA will do much the same thing and weaken the team defensively. A win...albeit small.

Virtanen...well be is a bit of an enigma, and if you just look at his stats, he is a very inconsistent player, but one with mid team upside. A year ago 18 and 18, in a shortened season. This year, nada! Why?

Gaudette, this young guy, has potential upside, but needs to be put in a purely offensive role, which he "may" excell at. IMO, he has some value, but the long he is left in the role the Canucks put him in, the more his value, diminshes. So, I would move him now.

There is a 5th person, I would move, which is Roussel, and I would retain on him, and add a 2022 mid round pick, to move him off the books. I am not sure that he does not have some value, but I have no idea what that might be, so moving him depends what the ask is.

Now, moving the 4 or 5 players, would surely slow down any point totals, and moves a little cap out, which would not be gone at the end of the season.....about 3.5 million to 6.5 million, depending what the cost of Roussel, but it would help shuffle things next year.

That is about the extent of any player movements I would do this TDL.

Now there are 2 things that are directly related to our take, and moving forwards, one being the removal of Benning, who I have been a big supporter of, but who I think, does not do anything well other than draft, where I completely differ from those that think otherwise.

The second thing I would do after the season is over, is remove Green and his assistants, who I believe, do not manage the defensive scheme very well at all, nor any of the special teams. (I am very upset at this part of our team, and feel that even if it is not directly attributed to Green, he is in charge, and will not make the changes, therefore he gets the credit, whether positive or negative...this is negative)

The last and final thing I would do is, hire a President of Hockey operations, and a handful of assistant GM's who would be in charge of individual departments....such as, amateur scouting, professional scouting, capology, and player development.

Conclusion:

I am in support of the Tank

Just Pearson, Sutter, Virtanen, and Gaudette?

When we have Miller, Schmidt, Myers and Holtby?

I give you this much tankness:

 

[SamInVan]

A new and competent GM can start fixing the damage created by Jethro/Jethrine fishing at the coming .tDL by trading away coming UFAs for picks, and by getting more and higher picks.

Rousel and Beagle = late picks. Worthless.

Maybe bundle them to move up.

Edler would fetch a 2nd rounder and maybe a prospect. We will need another top 4 LHD though.

But the damage is done and we are in a corner. Every GM in the NHL knows Vancouver has no cap.....and no cap = no leverage.

 

[VNCVR]

Then explain why Beagle, Sutter and Rousel are still here? That is $10m we could have used for Tanev and Toffoli.

Because Benning sees them as valuable people in the locker room and valuable players and his inflated opinion of them as players and people make it so that the price isn't worth it in his eyes. Combine that with what I mentioned in another post that GMs do not like giving up picks to fix their mistakes for several reasons. Also what i mentioned in another post is that I wouldn't doubt if he is more reluctant based on his drafting ability and how its been the only bright spot so far on this team.

Toffoli wasn't due to capspace, nor was Tanev, it's about value he tags on players. Hence why they were going after OEL. He "ran out of time" with toffoli when he didn't land the initial target (who was even higher priced). Tanev, Benning didn't like long term and thought they needed to add different skillset to the team who was more reliable (injury wise) and could fit in with where he pictured the team going, faster and better at transitioning. I am not suggesting it was a good idea but it wasn't due to not being able to make capspace

 

[infinitemile]

It starts tonight. Every single one of these godforsaken players needs to really pull up their bootstraps and scrape together a regulation loss tonight. It's gonna take all of them, because Edmonton is real bad. But it has to happen, we need to extend the suffering. Amplify it. Savour it. It is what will deliver us to freedom, boys, and it starts with another goddamn regulation loss to the Oilers.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Calgary looks to be tanking as well.

 

[Peen]

You know, to @VNCVR’s point, they have a chance at dealing with their cap issue if they’re proactive about giving up on the season soon.

If they can get assets for rentals like Edler, Sutter, Benn, Pearson, they can use those to flip Holtby, Eriksson, Roussel, and Virtanen in the off season.

To me, this is their obvious path to not being mediocre in 2021-2022.

Or, you use all those assets and add a bunch of prospects this draft and take another down year.

JUST DONT DO NONE OF THE ABOVE PLEASE

 

[VNCVR]

Calgary looks to be tanking as well.

Kind of off topic and I am by no means suggesting Tanev is a poor player, he's very good or that it's the reason Flames are doing poor but... I think his defensive game is so good that he will always demand a ton of minutes but I think having him play that many minutes really takes alot of offense out of your forwards. Maybe not alot but I think people underestimate the impact of this. I never see it brought up. He will take a hit to get the puck up the ice and he will make a pass that works but you definitely need more than a good first short pass to really help your forwards.

Personally I agree with moving on from Tanev, in the big picture. I dont agree with everything else (esp toffoli) so now we are in a place to where having Tanev back would be better. But moving on from tanev would have been in my plans.

 

[VNCVR]

You know, to @VNCVR’s point, they have a chance at dealing with their cap issue if they’re proactive about giving up on the season soon.

If they can get assets for rentals like Edler, Sutter, Benn, Pearson, they can use those to flip Holtby, Eriksson, Roussel, and Virtanen in the off season.

To me, this is their obvious path to not being mediocre in 2021-2022.

Or, you use all those assets and add a bunch of prospects this draft and take another down year.

JUST DONT DO NONE OF THE ABOVE PLEASE

You don't necessarily need to add picks (but it would help if you can get ANY), if youre willing to say goodbye to this years draft picks and a couple from the following year. The value in the capspace and being able to add players outweigh the players we may develop from such picks.

Benning doing very well at drafting in recent years (hoglander JUST added and podkolzin pending) has allowed them the ability to use the upcoming years to correct these past mistakes. Well allowed the next GM perhaps

What are people expecting to land in these drafts that can't be found elsewhere?

 

[Peen]

You don't necessarily need to add picks (but it would help if you can get ANY), if youre willing to say goodbye to this years draft picks and a couple from the following year. The value in the capspace and being able to add players outweigh the players we may develop from such picks.

Benning doing very well at drafting in recent years (hoglander JUST added and podkolzin pending) has allowed them the ability to use the upcoming years to correct these past mistakes. Well allowed the next GM perhaps

What are people expecting to land in these drafts that can't be found elsewhere?

We definitely do need more youth in the system. There isn’t a lot to be excited about and it’s looking relatively bare again.
But, you pick your poison when you’re not rich.

People will always do the thing where they name a bunch of names “OH YEAH BUT WE HAVE X Y Z” but it’s all relative.

 

[SamInVan]

I am not suggesting it was a good idea but it wasn't due to not being able to make capspace

It had everything to do with capspace since we had none.

 

[VNCVR]

We definitely do need more youth in the system. There isn’t a lot to be excited about and it’s looking relatively bare again.
But, you pick your poison when you’re not rich.

People will always do the thing where they name a bunch of names “OH YEAH BUT WE HAVE X Y Z” but it’s all relative.

Given the age of the team and the spots that they fill, I don't think its necessarily required to have much youth in the system. And I am talking about missing 1 1/2 years. Honestly that should not cripple a team's cupboard, especially not in window as long as the Canucks have with their core and if they put together a team around them. What spots do you need filled with youth? Bottom 6's can be made up of guys expendable on teams. Just need to know how to pro scout. Hell Vegas made an entire team out of rejects and not all of them are big contract guys. You do not need to develop bottom 6 players and depth d men. Though its definitely helpful

Theres so many paths to add depth, whether its college free agents, random ahl signings, waiver wire, free agency, trading spare parts for undervalued players/players needing a change of scenery.

I mean how many bottom 6 guys have the Canucks developed in the past while? Taking a year off and fixing mistakes with picks wouldn't be giving that up IMO.

 

[Peen]

Given the age of the team and the spots that they fill, I don't think its necessarily required to have much youth in the system. And I am talking about missing 1 1/2 years. Honestly that should not cripple a team. What spots do you need filled with youth? Bottom 6's can be made up of guys expendable on teams. Just need to know how to pro scout. Hell Vegas made an entire team out of rejects. You do not need to develop bottom 6 players and depth d men. Though its definitely helpful

It’s not simply about needing players to be young.

Having a constant influx of youth gives your organization more flexibility. These guys either become valuable trade pieces or guys you can use on cheap deals to replace the guys you pay more for in free agency.

 

[VNCVR]

It’s not simply about needing players to be young.

Having a constant influx of youth gives your organization more flexibility. These guys either become valuable trade pieces or guys you can use on cheap deals to replace the guys you pay more for in free agency.

It's one way, yes. But obviously the value of fixing mistakes is greater than removing one of the several options for adding young depth, especially for 1 - 2 years. Gotta step it up in other areas to compensate

 

[4Twenty]

Kind of off topic and I am by no means suggesting Tanev is a poor player, he's very good or that it's the reason Flames are doing poor but... I think his defensive game is so good that he will always demand a ton of minutes but I think having him play that many minutes really takes alot of offense out of your forwards. Maybe not alot but I think people underestimate the impact of this. I never see it brought up. He will take a hit to get the puck up the ice and he will make a pass that works but you definitely need more than a good first short pass to really help your forwards.

Personally I agree with moving on from Tanev, in the big picture. I dont agree with everything else (esp toffoli) so now we are in a place to where having Tanev back would be better. But moving on from tanev would have been in my plans.

I swear you’ve never watched Tanev play if that’s all you think he can do.

 

[Peen]

It's one way, yes. But obviously the value of fixing mistakes is greater than removing one of the several options for adding young depth, especially for 1 - 2 years. Gotta step it up in other areas to compensate

I’m with you on that.

I think of the scenarios I posed, I clearly rank

1. sell ufas and use assets to flip bad deals in offseason
2. sell ufas and accumulate a bunch of prospects during an additional down year
3. Don’t do anything like these f***s are going to do or maybe trade one guy at most

The optics of 2 are really bad. Players will be super unhappy and that has to be accounted for.

I’m just saying that they need to make sure they don’t do #3, but I agree option #1 is their best option

 

[Peen]

I swear you’ve never watched Tanev play if that’s all you think he can do.

It’s like when people continue to say “Stecher is ok but he is small gets thrown around a lot and was exposed in the playoffs”

Like WTF? He was insanely good in the playoffs and plays with more intensity than anyone on our blue line.

 

[Hyzer]

Going to need the boys to pull out a juicy loss tonight to really put the boot heel to Jimbo’s throat

 

[zcaptain]

Just Pearson, Sutter, Virtanen, and Gaudette?

When we have Miller, Schmidt, Myers and Holtby?

I give you this much tankness:

Ha, ha....Funny!

No, I am not into a tear down, just want to take advantage of a poor season. If Florida can do what they do, so can we.......

I am more about a Front Office/Management and Coaching changes.........

So, for me, the tank serves 2 purposes............