20-21 Season Tank Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

[VNCVR]

Quinn Hughes is not a number 1 right now to answer your first question - he starts almost 69% (last year 58%) of the time in the offensive zone 5on5 and is barely above water on the CF% , and doesn’t play penalty kill.


I don’t know how you can say he’s a number one dman or that he’s shown anything that suggest he could become a number one dman.

I also like how you point out he has to play with benn when in fact he has a plus 2 goal differential with him and is minus or even with everyone else. Hughes is a liability defensively right now that’s not something that can even be argued.

Last year he was on ice for 3.5 ga/60 and this year he is on the ice for 4.3 ga/60. In fact he’s closer to jalen chatfield at 4.9 ga/60 than he is to jordie Benns 3.6 ga/60. In fact you could argue Quinn is bringing down benns defensive play(though we need more data for the pairings overall)

could he develop into something....let’s see but so far he hasn’t shown anything to say he can.

Honestly it was far from the point. I can respect that there are people who think otherwise because youre looking at a short sample size. I mean I saw the majority of this board raving about him and how hes better than Makar because of his defensive ability. And now he's atrocious defensively.

It's clear you are looking at this years numbers, it's why when I bring up hes playing with Benn, you talk about how hes + whatever playing with Benn. You seem like you are only looking at stats and ignoring context. The team was playing horrible to start, they have been playing better since he's been put with Benn, if anything playing better with Benn shows that he can EVEN play with Benn when the team in front of him and the goaltending starts to become more normalized. Him being more utilized in an offensive role does not mean hes POOR defensively, it means there are players better suited there. Not every d man has to be in the same mold. How they form the d pairings has to do with alot of things, more than who they trust. It has to do with balance, how to get the most out of certain players, etc . Quinn Hughes when not going through a very common down for a young player, is more than capable of playing on a top pairing, with another top pairing d man, and eating up even strength minutes. period. when the players in front of them are playing like an NHL team

You seem to love your stats though so I know this wont get far. lol when things turn around, itll be that he developed. theres no real winning. stats will reflect whatever you want them to say. Why? Because there's that many stats out there, also without context, they don't mean alot. If youre trying to show that his stats are suffering at the moment, then I would agree. But that's all youre showing me by showing me his ga/60

His issues are a reflection of him playing with the exact same attitude all of the Canucks players are carrying, it's a reflection of the goaltenders and all d pairings having new partners and it being 20 games into a season with alot of turnover and a ton of key players gone. No stat you display for these 20 games is any proof of what kind of player he is.

 

[xtra]

Honestly it was far from the point. I can respect that there are people who think otherwise because youre looking at a short sample size. I mean I saw the majority of this board raving about him and how hes better than Makar because of his defensive ability. And now he's atrocious defensively.

It's clear you are looking at this years numbers, it's why when I bring up hes playing with Benn, you talk about how hes + whatever playing with Benn. You seem like you are only looking at stats and ignoring context. The team was playing horrible to start, they have been playing better since he's been put with Benn, if anything playing better with Benn shows that he can EVEN play with Benn when the team in front of him and the goaltending starts to become more normalized. Him being more utilized in an offensive role does not mean hes POOR defensively, it means there are players better suited there. Not every d man has to be in the same mold. How they form the d pairings has to do with alot of things, more than who they trust. It has to do with balance, how to get the most out of certain players, etc . Quinn Hughes when not going through a very common down for a young player, is more than capable of playing on a top pairing, with another top pairing d man, and eating up even strength minutes. period. when the players in front of them are playing like an NHL team

You seem to love your stats though so I know this wont get far. lol when things turn around, itll be that he developed. theres no real winning. stats will reflect whatever you want them to say. Why? Because there's that many stats out there, also without context, they don't mean alot. If youre trying to show that his stats are suffering at the moment, then I would agree. But that's all youre showing me by showing me his ga/60

His issues are a reflection of him playing with the exact same attitude all of the Canucks players are carrying, it's a reflection of the goaltenders and all d pairings having new partners and it being 20 games into a season with alot of turnover and a ton of key players gone. No stat you display for these 20 games is any proof of what kind of player he is.

ok simple questions.

Do you think Hughes right now is good defensively?

do you trust him to go out there and shutdown a top 10 Center?

Has he shown you the ability to do so in the future or is it something your hoping he will do.

to me it seems your only hoping what he will become and it’s not based on anything you actually see.

also the general accepted understanding of a #1 dman is someone that can anchor the top pairing which means both ways. If your saying he can’t do that then he’s not a number one

 

[VNCVR]

Pearson is UFA at the end of the season. So to is B.Sutter who together represent $8m in cap based on current salary.

EP is RFA status and up for a contract that will be in that range.

Now we need a replacement 3C and 2C winger.

Alex Edler is also UFA. Add a top 4 LHD to the list.

Which pieces are you planning on moving? Teams are not exactly lining up to take out our trash.

I linked to posts that answer this. Sutter is to be traded. Pearson can be resigned and fit under the cap. Whether a better option comes up is up to the management

I am letting Edler walk. And yes I am trading a high first rounder for a D man or signing him in free agency. Free agency 3c, or 3w if Miller becomes 3c. Those are very available to a desirable market on the open market

We have alot of picks and no need for added youth as we have a substantial amount of young players and we only need to replace poor older players with slightly younger better players. I would trade picks to offload some contracts. (roussel, beagle), pay whatever it takes. since the contracts will not be long after this year, i can't imagine itll cost alot. But ill be willing to pay it. Got to pay to fix mistakes.

 

[Svencouver]

 

[VNCVR]

ok simple questions.

Do you think Hughes right now is good defensively?

do you trust him to go out there and shutdown a top 10 Center?

Has he shown you the ability to do so in the future or is it something your hoping he will do.

to me it seems your only hoping what he will become and it’s not based on anything you actually see.

I think he's below average defensively at this very moment. I believe will he will rebound into average VERY quickly as he naturally rebounds in his play.

Do I think he's still a #1? Yes. He is a HUGE net positive. He just isn't currently due to him underperforming at this SPECIFIC moment, some of it is on him being a rookie and having normal ups and downs and the rest (most of it) is because of circumstance (the teams play - again, some being on them and some of it due to the players they lost)

A player in his 2nd year is not going to be able to carry things when things are rocky. That's not a reflection of him being a #1. It's perception. People were believing hes one of the best in the league, now theyre coming down to earth and realizing hes not, so theyre saying hes not even a #1. Its radical beliefs based on emotion. The truth is in the middle

If he was paired with another top d, i would trust him in the role. As is the case with a top pairing, you get two very good players because it takes two very good players or two players that compliment each other very well, unless theyre the top 5-10 D men in the league, they generally aren't able to carry just anybody. Needing a complimentary piece does not make you not a #1, if anything, i suppose you could argue it doesn't make as a top d man in the league at this exact time.

I think a young player doesn't handle things being so rocky and poor as well as a veteran, I think his play right now shows that. But this isn't the typical circumstance. So to say he's not a #1 because of how he handles everybody around him playing poorly, well...

I think this is him being a rookie and not handling the massive change and shitload of poor play that is being thrown at him suddenly. He is going to learn to adjust. But him not adjusting in 20 games does not change anything.

People have this idea of how a #1 is. When every case is unique. There can be #1's who are worse in certain situations, #1's who are worse defensively and better offensively. Its a spectrum. What makes a #1 is their value to a team, their net positive of course.

 

[xtra]

I think he's below average defensively at this very moment. I believe will he will rebound into average VERY quickly as he naturally rebounds in his play.

Do I think he's still a #1? Yes. He is a HUGE net positive. He just isn't currently due to him underperforming at this SPECIFIC moment, some of it is on him being a rookie and having normal ups and downs and the rest (most of it) is because of circumstance (the teams play - again, some being on them and some of it due to the players they lost)

A player in his 2nd year is not going to be able to carry things when things are rocky. That's not a reflection of him being a #1. It's perception. People were believing hes one of the best in the league, now theyre coming down to earth and realizing hes not, so theyre saying hes not even a #1. Its radical beliefs based on emotion. The truth is in the middle

If he was paired with another top d, i would trust him in the role. As is the case with a top pairing, unless theyre the top 10 D men in the league, they generally aren't able to carry just anybody. Needing a complimentary piece does not make you not a #1, if anything, i suppose you could argue it doesn't make as a top d man in the league at this exact time.

I hope your right for the long term health of the franchise but personally I haven’t seen it from him even prior in college/who (defensive side only)

I think people are generally to fast to name him a number one cause he’s putting up points while not showing any defensive responsibility due to his size limitations.

hopefully he does become a major net positive and to do so might require smarter usage of him and partners we don’t have at the moment.

anyways back to the tank thread

 

[SamInVan]

I linked to posts that answer this. Sutter is to be traded. Pearson can be resigned and fit under the cap. Whether a better option comes up is up to the management

No team is going to trade for a fourth liner making $4.3m and Pearson will be looking for a pay raise with term.

 

[VNCVR]

I hope your right for the long term health of the franchise but personally I haven’t seen it from him even prior in college/who (defensive side only)

I think people are generally to fast to name him a number one cause he’s putting up points while not showing any defensive responsibility due to his size limitations.

hopefully he does become a major net positive and to do so might require smarter usage of him and partners we don’t have at the moment.

anyways back to the tank thread

Personally I think they were too fast to name him one of the best in the league and they were also too fast to name him not a number one or label him as POOR defensively. But that's what you get in society, you tend to go so far to one side because you think it counteracts the other side and that they need to come back to the "correct" side and their idea is that their best chance to do this is by going far to the other side and exaggerate it to prove a point. Which obviously doesn't work and instead, just makes both incorrect.

 

[SamInVan]

I am letting Edler walk. And yes I am trading a high first rounder for a D man or signing him in free agency. Free agency 3c, or 3w if Miller becomes 3c. Those are very available to a desirable market on the open market

We have no cap space unless you think Petey is going to take a pay cut.

 

[VNCVR]

No team is going to trade for a fourth liner making $4.3m and Pearson will be looking for a pay raise with term.

The only fans who think a player is not tradeable is somebody that hasn't been watching hockey for long enough. Every player is tradeable. Its whether the GM personally wants to pay the price. You dont see it because GMs manage it in a way that is biased because they have their own portfolio to worry about.

But if we're talking whats right and what CAN be done. Yes somebody WILL infact trade for a year of Roussel for a very nice pick and a b-c prospect. (obviously i personally dont think it will cost that much but lets just say I am willing to pay the price to offload a couple specific contracts to be able to compete because I am sold on the core and if we can correct the mistakes ,it will be worth it.

 

[VNCVR]

We have no cap space unless you think Petey is going to take a pay cut.

We do when you dump salary and trade virtanen, sutter and MAYBE gaudette. And I still believe its very possible that Myers or Holtby are taken by Seattle. Despite what fans here think.

 

[Beech]

Obviously you didn’t look very deeply into what was happening out west.

You are right. We saw Hughes, Pettersson, Boeser, etc, and saw a young team on the rise. Shows you that things are not always what they seem.

 

[SamInVan]

The only fans who think a player is not tradeable is somebody that hasn't been watching hockey for long enough

Never said he was not tradable...I said no team would trade for him. Only way we move him is with a sweetener....which would be a stupid move given his pending FA status.

Other GMs know Jimbo has painted himself into a corner and your plan is based on these GMs giving us good players or picks for our crap contracts.

 

[garbageteam]

Finally, my home on this board.

I don't care how much people hate the Flames, the Oilers or the Leafs (I think most of us are fine laying a goose egg to the lovable losers the Senators), every game is a must lose.

Last year was an aberration. It shouldn't have happened and we should have cleaned house. Hell there weren't even any fans, if we were gonna have an OK run in the playoffs, it could have at least come in a non-COVID year.

The draft pick isn't the big pickup here, it's the egg on the faces of Benning, Weisbrod and FA.

This decade was essentially a waste of time to be a Canucks fan, let's not make the next decade one as well.

 

[VNCVR]

Never said he was not tradable...I said no team would trade for him. Only way we move him is with a sweetener....which would be a stupid move given his pending FA status.

Other GMs know Jimbo has painted himself into a corner and your plan is based on these GMs giving us good players or picks for our crap contracts.

I think a pick as high as we're picking can land any D man that can be made available, no matter who the GM is.

But yes I do think most short contracts can be traded with picks to rid of. As long as their salaries don't hugely handicap teams. And I wouldn't use the word sweetener. Sweetener might be an extra 3rd or 4th. It could very well cost much more than that. So be it.

 

[SamInVan]

We do when you dump salary and trade virtanen, sutter and MAYBE gaudette. And I still believe its very possible that Myers or Holtby are taken by Seattle. Despite what fans here think.

I don't think you understand how screwed we are until after next year at the earliest.

Virtanen and Gaudette are now worthless. We might get a late pick for Virtanen. Guadette is RFA so we may as well keep, he might turn it around and be a decent 4th C.

Which teams are specifically lining up to trade prospects for bad contracts?

I would love to know which teams you think would make a B.Sutter move.

 

[Beech]

Jim Benning, year and after, made very poor choices in our roster composition and cap structure. It was sort of under the radar for the main media and most casual fans, but astute fans would only have to take a look at the cap structure of our deals on cap friendly to understand this was inevitable.

Last year was a fluke where we lucked into the playoffs and happened to win a few games. We relied heavily on Vezina level goaltending (which is gone) as well as losing 33% of our defensive corps. We continued to bleed valuable assets for trash and now we're in a place where we have nothing left and we're going to bottom out for 2-3 more years. It's hard to win games when half of our roster is being paid almost 25 million dollars when we can pick up guys on league minimum and they most likely outperform many of these players

Years of ineptitude by a dumb GM has got us to this place, unfortunately, and there's no way out except through a good 'ol fashioned fire sale. Sad, frustrating, and ultimately was an inevitability after the first year we saw Jim Benning's moves. Imagine a GM on his third coach in 7 years and STILL having a job. My god, its infuriating.

Bergevin in Montreal. ..not that much better.
Dorion in Ottawa..not much better..infact by season's end..probably a new high for low..most likely a 28th-31st finish, adding to a 30, 31 and 30th
Edmonton has hardly been a world beater. Up and down like a yoyo
Toronto can win in the regular season, but flames out something awful in the playoffs.
Calgary...Toronto West
Winnipeg...two decent seasons the last 6 or 7.

so add you guys and you have a full 7 GMS that are not exactly shining. GMs on Canadian teams do not get fired. Most stay way longer than GMs on US teams.

 

[Fatass]

I think a pick as high as we're picking can land any D man that can be made available, no matter who the GM is.

But yes I do think most short contracts can be traded with picks to rid of. As long as their salaries don't hugely handicap teams. And I wouldn't use the word sweetener. Sweetener might be an extra 3rd or 4th. It could very well cost much more than that. So be it.

Other than Myers (who can fill a useful role) aren’t all the horrid contracts gone in two years? Considering our two elite young guys, Petey and Hughes, aren’t going to be entering their primes to at least then, maybe it’s best to ride out the bad contracts for a couple years and keep our draft picks. Heck let’s add picks!

 

[SamInVan]

Sweetener might be an extra 3rd or 4th. It could very well cost much more than that. So be it.

You want to trade B.Sutter and a prospect to another team who will give us either crap prospects or late picks or both....for a player UFA by years end? What exactly do you think we are gaining?

 

[platotld]

 

[Peen]

I linked to posts that answer this. Sutter is to be traded. Pearson can be resigned and fit under the cap. Whether a better option comes up is up to the management

I am letting Edler walk. And yes I am trading a high first rounder for a D man or signing him in free agency. Free agency 3c, or 3w if Miller becomes 3c. Those are very available to a desirable market on the open market

We have alot of picks and no need for added youth as we have a substantial amount of young players and we only need to replace poor older players with slightly younger better players. I would trade picks to offload some contracts. (roussel, beagle), pay whatever it takes. since the contracts will not be long after this year, i can't imagine itll cost alot. But ill be willing to pay it. Got to pay to fix mistakes.

The point isn’t whether these assets are available.

They always are.

The point is that we don’t have the capspace available NOR do we have surplus assets to trade for immediate help.

 

[SamInVan]

maybe it’s best to ride out the bad contracts for a couple years and keep our draft picks.

Which means we don't start fixing the damage until 2022-23.

 

[Fatass]

You want to trade B.Sutter and a prospect to another team who will give us either crap prospects or late picks or both....for a player UFA by years end? What exactly do you think we are gaining?

Sutter to a team that’s just around us, will actually help that team finish higher than us, so we draft in a better spot. Do the same with Pearson too. If Edler will waive him too. It’s not only about Cole ting picks it’s also about making the teams close to you in the standings a bit better so they finish ahead of you. This season is over, and should be only about developing our young futures core group, and getting the most and highest picks possible.

 

[Fatass]

Which means we don't start fixing the damage until 2022-23.

A new and competent GM can start fixing the damage created by Jethro/Jethrine fishing at the coming .tDL by trading away coming UFAs for picks, and by getting more and higher picks.

 

[VNCVR]

I don't think you understand how screwed we are until after next year at the earliest.

Virtanen and Gaudette are now worthless. We might get a late pick for Virtanen. Guadette is RFA so we may as well keep, he might turn it around and be a decent 4th C.

Which teams are specifically lining up to trade prospects for bad contracts?

I would love to know which teams you think would make a B.Sutter move.

I answered that in another post. Every short contract where the cap hit isn't crippling, can be traded at a price and i will pay that price. people do not line up for these contracts, hence why you pay a hefty price to offload, even for a single year.

i was never suggesting my idea of fixing the team depended on getting anything of true value for those 2. but they are most definitely going to return you SOMETHING. whether you are down on them or not.

Sutter at trade deadline means what the new team owes him is so extremely minor, he's on an expiring contract. Are you suggesting that Brandon Sutter doesn't have value to a playoff team at a cost next to nothing? I am not sure how to debate this.