Post-Game Talk: 1st place once again, Jets win 5-2

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I think if you want to speculate on what was happening behind the scenes, you'll come closer to the truth if you take a systems approach rather than look at 1 player. We have seen noticeable changes, among several players this season, that would suggest there was across the board frustration with many becoming disengaged. This year we see renewed engagement and optimism. IMO individual players handled this differently, but the end result was chaos in the room. My take on Scheifele, he is a student of the game and knew what the team was doing was ineffective and not giving them the best chance of winning and over time he started to focus more and more on the parts of the game he enjoyed the most since there was no effective system in place to consistently win games. I didn't see him not trying, but rather doing his own thing in a coaching vacuum.

I was listening to an NBA podcast, and a former player noted that there are really only two things players care about: Winning and Getting the bag - and they are willing to sacrifice Getting the bag for winning, but if you're not on a winning team it becomes all about maximizing your value.

Not a surprise.

 

[Stumbledore]

Micro analytics are snake oil

Smartest thing that anybody has said here all month.

 

[surixon]

This video is cool, but doesn't disagree with the fact that the Jets were outgoalied. Sure they gave up 11 more chances off the rush and 6 more shots from the slot, but those numbers don't lead to a 4-1 series loss by themselves.

Agreed, that works out to one additional slot chance a game and two rush chances a game. That is miniscule and effectively noise in the grand scheme of that series. I'm not saying goaltending was the only difference but it was by far the largest.

 

[Jet]

Agreed, that works out to one additional slot chance a game and two rush chances a game. That is miniscule and effectively noise in the grand scheme of that series. I'm not saying goaltending was the only difference but it was by far the largest.

It's hilarious that some are implying that after a 114 point pack of wolves season and 2 round wins that Maurice somehow magically had the team playing an entirely different game in the Vegas series. That's giving the coach way too much credit.

I think the combination of Helle playing average and Fleury standing on his head caused the team to lose confidence and that's what ultimately sank us.

 

[Dale53130]

Yeah I'm not sure what happened between those two but there was a clear falling out. They should have moved on when that became apparent though and that is on management/ownership.

I wonder who else was tired of Moe in the room, can't imagine Ehlers was thrilled with his usage under Paul.

It'll be interesting to see if Ehlers ever gets that 20 minutes per game that he feels that he deserves, and IF his body can actually hold up playing 20 minutes per game. I firmly believe that he's not one of those guys, and that his game regresses the more minutes he plays.

If the subject of most overrated Jet on HFBoards ever comes up, Ehlers is King.

Perhaps everyone's forgotten how Maurice almost blew the Nashville series that year by insisting on playing Matt Hendricks...Then he benches Copp and Enstrom for the elimination game against Vegas? Anyway, virtually the same lineup for 3 seasons, had one good run. This doesn't even qualify under Meatloaf's standards!

Enstrom of all people? Did you not watch him play during those playoffs? He wasn't benched soon enough.

 

[DannyGallivan]

It's hilarious that some are implying that after a 114 point pack of wolves season and 2 round wins that Maurice somehow magically had the team playing an entirely different game in the Vegas series. That's giving the coach way too much credit.

I think the combination of Helle playing average and Fleury standing on his head caused the team to lose confidence and that's what ultimately sank us.

It’s not that he had them playing a different game… quite the opposite. They didn’t adjust to Vegas’ counter, the kept playing the same even though it was no longer working.

 

[MardyBum]

This video is cool, but doesn't disagree with the fact that the Jets were outgoalied. Sure they gave up 11 more chances off the rush and 6 more shots from the slot, but those numbers don't lead to a 4-1 series loss by themselves.

They do when every game is close.

"Jets dominated that series, Fleury is the only reason they won"

*sees video*

"WELL, that means nothing, Vegas had a bit more slot chances and chances off the rush and it was actually much more even than I remember but. . FLEURY!! "

Imagine thinking that series was Winnipeg Edmonton from a few years ago. That was a goalie stealing a series.

Not saying that was you but jesus, Mo is gone. Stop making excuses

 

[AlphaLackey]

Nice response - I'm glad you joined in on the speculation.
That's pretty much what we are doing - no harm in it.

What the hell are we even doing with our time here, if we're not going to engage in some idle speculation. That's half the fun!

Also: Goalie Bob? More like Goalie BYOB amirite?! Hoo boy. Imagine having 10 million tied up in a sub-AHL backup for years and years.

 

[Gm0ney]

It'll be interesting to see if Ehlers ever gets that 20 minutes per game that he feels that he deserves, and IF his body can actually hold up playing 20 minutes per game. I firmly believe that he's not one of those guys, and that his game regresses the more minutes he plays.

If the subject of most overrated Jet on HFBoards ever comes up, Ehlers is King.



Enstrom of all people? Did you not watch him play during those playoffs? He wasn't benched soon enough.

Wheeler, for one, certainly looks much better playing about 2 minutes less per night. But then again, I have yet to see Ehlers laboring around the rink like he's about to keel over at the end of a 3 minute shift...so we'll see I guess. (To be fair, I think Bowness is splitting up the ice time better than Maurice did, so hopefully no one will be sucking air after an interminable shift).

Enstrom was on the ice for one goal against in the 4 games he played against Vegas in that series. He was benched in his final game with the Atlanta/Winnipeg franchise so Joe Morrow could turn the tide. Brilliant coaching. How hasn't Maurice won more Stanley Cups? It's a real mystery...

 

[RabidOne]

This video is cool, but doesn't disagree with the fact that the Jets were outgoalied. Sure they gave up 11 more chances off the rush and 6 more shots from the slot, but those numbers don't lead to a 4-1 series loss by themselves.

Buddy of mine who is a Leafs fan commented to me after the cup was awarded that if Fleury played against the Jets the way he played against the caps it would be the Jets hoisting that year.

 

[kanadalainen]

I understand there'll be some Maurice talk but some posters are obsessed with him and post relentlessly about him.

True, there are a number of levels of investment.

 

[AlphaLackey]

True, there are a number of levels of investment.

Mo is a great guy. I'm glad he's still grabbing the bag; I'm even more glad that another team is providing it

(See which also: Tyler Myers, Ben Chairot, Tucker Poolman, ....)

 

[DeepFrickinValue]

If anyone comes out of the lineup it should be Gagner, not AJF

AJF had some glorious chances for nice assists yesterday. Maybe he is not a setup man?

 

[Dale53130]

Enstrom was on the ice for one goal against in the 4 games he played against Vegas in that series. He was benched in his final game with the Atlanta/Winnipeg franchise so Joe Morrow could turn the tide. Brilliant coaching. How hasn't Maurice won more Stanley Cups? It's a real mystery...

There's plenty to dissect in what that one goal in 4 games meant. In his ~14 minutes per game over those 4 games, who was on the ice with him, and who was he matched up against on the other team? Did Vegas score a lot of goals, over those 4 games? It felt like they were playing him - out of loyalty - and doing their best to hide him.

I was bracing myself everytime Enstrom was on the ice during those playoffs. In fairness, I felt "better" about him from game-to-game, but that's not saying much. It's like going from an absolute liability out there (who shouldn't have been on the ice frankly), to not-that-horrible, to less-than-average in a way that I'm still not comfortable (but I can still breathe). Whenever he and Laine were on the ice at the same time, stuck in their own end, it was like giving the other team a 6-on-3 powerplay without having to pull their goalie.

I thought Morrow was a decent pick-up, especially if he's your 6th or 7th guy on defense. He seemed steady to me, like Mike Lalor on the '90s version of the Jets; though not as good as Lalor. I was infinitely more comfortable with Morrow over Enstrom.

 

[Stumbledore]

If that is not what he meant I hoped he would clarify his statement is that okay? If you think that some players can't process plays faster on the ice then others from being more prepared or gifted in that sense then we will agree to disagree I guess.

First, the 'he' you refer to twice is actually a chick, not a guy.

Second, if you go back and read #130 it's about Schief not being a deep thinker in regards to his comments about Maurice, not about who processes plays faster on the ice.

 

[bumblebeeman]

They do when every game is close.

"Jets dominated that series, Fleury is the only reason they won"

*sees video*

"WELL, that means nothing, Vegas had a bit more slot chances and chances off the rush and it was actually much more even than I remember but. . FLEURY!! "

Imagine thinking that series was Winnipeg Edmonton from a few years ago. That was a goalie stealing a series.

Not saying that was you but jesus, Mo is gone. Stop making excuses

Maurice doesn't need to be blamed either. Some posters seem to feel like anything good that happened was despite him, and everything bad was because of him. Claiming these stats that Vegas has slightly more slot shots and shots on the rush are his fault and why we lost the series, and denying that goaltending played a big factor in the results of the series (as it always does) doesn't make sense to me. I guess some folks just need someone to blame, and the coach is as good a scapegoat as any

 

[Adam da bomb]

AJF had some glorious chances for nice assists yesterday. Maybe he is not a setup man?

Maybe Gagner is not a finisher. Glorious chances AJF created.

 

[TS Quint]

We can all formulate what might have caused that but I'd assume Mo was unable to get Scheif moving and Scheif was tired of being told to pick up his pace and play some defense.
That's a spark that can light a fire and from there, I can see the rest of the team tuning out what would likely be an obvious problem between the coach and the top center - in other words, a major disruption in the room.

Scheif's response or method in dealing with the issue is to stop playing - Maurice's response is to stop coaching.
Both are not saying much on the topic - which is a good thing.
Regardless, it's great that it is now behind us

Who exactly was Maurice moving in the last few year's? No one. That's the problem.

To use you as a jumping off point, why does everyone get a bee in their pants over Scheifele especially when Maurice gets I to the discussion?

I get it, Scheifele wasn't playing to his potential or was very engaged and to be fair it was a long span. But why? Could it be any combination of the 100s of things that have been discussion around her for years? The coaching, the systems, accountability? Even Adam pointed out last year that his own dad didn't coach the players well enough to know what they were supposed to be doing out there. I think it was clear the Jets have been a rudderless ship for years. Maurice had to be convinced to stay when he wanted to leave, what an embarrassment of an organization. TNSE was renown for their ability to keep everything in house until last year the players blew their top.

Scheifele is in the prime of his career making (relative) peanuts and this is the best the organization can do for him? A coach who has done sweet F all for years and then he QUITS only to get Dave Fn Lowry? I'd be pissed too. Just toss away another year for Scheifele in his prime making $3m+/year under value in his contract. You wonder why he's having a crisis at the end of the year? They threw away a year they were supposed to be contenders. Wiped their asses with it and threw it away.

I'm not in the least mad wih Scheifele, he was on our side. He looks great this year, he looks happy this year. Wonder why? Are we a better team on paper without Copp and Stastny? Nope. But we have a new coach who seems to be a real leader with real ideas how to play. I'm not saying Maurice was all bad but he had been out of ideas for a long time. Its how it goes. I know the Jets want their 2 decade career coach like Barry Trotz but he cant even do that again. Its just not how it works. Coaches have a shelf life. Painful lesson learned, you almost burned the franchise down because you put the coach above the organization.

 

[Snowboy]

I was replying to the "Mark is not a deep thinker" part of your comment.... I take it to mean that he is not able to think the game on the ice at a high level according to your friends ....

Are you a glutton for punishment?

 

[Jet]

It’s not that he had them playing a different game… quite the opposite. They didn’t adjust to Vegas’ counter, the kept playing the same even though it was no longer working.

Ohhhhh so the Jets play style was extremely effective against every team all year and in the playoffs but not against Vegas.

That's insane

 

[GNP]

I was just thinking to myself, what if Helle keeps up these numbers like .932 % save percentage, and maybe even wins another Vezina. I would then think his market value would be in the $ 10 - 12 million per year range. I have to wonder if the Jets would pony up the money and pay him, or trade him ? or let him go because it's too much money to have tied up in a Goaltender ? What do posters think on this ?

 

[Adam da bomb]

I was just thinking to myself, what if Helle keeps up these numbers like .932 % save percentage, and maybe even wins another Vezina. I would then think his market value would be in the $ 10 - 12 million per year range. I have to wonder if the Jets would pony up the money and pay him, or trade him ? or let him go because it's too much money to have tied up in a Goaltender ? What do posters think on this ?

Depends on how the playoffs go. We know that Chevy does everything he can to keep the band together if they look like contenders. Helly makes Chevy pay because he thinks he’s earned it, which to be fair one can’t argue with.

 

[gojetsgo]

I was just thinking to myself, what if Helle keeps up these numbers like .932 % save percentage, and maybe even wins another Vezina. I would then think his market value would be in the $ 10 - 12 million per year range. I have to wonder if the Jets would pony up the money and pay him, or trade him ? or let him go because it's too much money to have tied up in a Goaltender ? What do posters think on this ?

if you want to win you pay him, cap should also go up soon as well

 

[Gil Fisher]

I was just thinking to myself, what if Helle keeps up these numbers like .932 % save percentage, and maybe even wins another Vezina. I would then think his market value would be in the $ 10 - 12 million per year range. I have to wonder if the Jets would pony up the money and pay him, or trade him ? or let him go because it's too much money to have tied up in a Goaltender ? What do posters think on this ?

He's already #6 in the league. The two at the top are disasters. Will he want Vas money? there's no one else close. Needs a Cup to get Vas money. $7.5-8.0m is probably fair if no cup.

 

[DRW204]

Helle is better than Vas and probably should be paid more. I am interested in seeing if the Jets give him big signing bonuses like some of the high profile ufa contracts as of late.