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GDT: #17 | Flyers at Senators | Thursday, November 14, 2024 | 7:00 PM | NBCSP, 97.5 FM

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ViD said:
Michkov had second most shifts with 24, yet only around 14 minutes on the ice, what is he doing there, taking 10 second shifts?
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Yes, extremely short shifts. In and out, sometimes as short as 10 seconds. Very strange, but maybe by design? I wonder if maybe Torts gave Michkov this specific instruction to keep shifts short, because they might be working on improving his stamina. I think Michkov is not in optimal shape at the moment.
 
deadhead said:
That was just a weird game. First two periods was the worst I've seen them play in years, then they wake up and take over despite a couple bad penalties. Did someone dope the water?

Michkov was awful, two bad penalties, did nothing all game except win it in overtime. Go figure.
Cates looked faster than Frost, WTF? Hmm, check edge, Cates top speed 22.43, Frost 21.76.
Ok, this is definitely weird.

Flyers have to skate to win, first two periods they were beat to every loose puck, 3rd period the reserve.

Richard must have looked at his paycheck and said I got to figure out how to stay up here, I like that extra zero.
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Something is definitely up with Frost. His skating looks very labored and hunched over. His arms appear to be doing more work than his legs. He also seems to be having a crisis in confidence, i.e. he is afraid to make a mistake, which is a death knell for his type of player....Mission accomplished Totortella
 
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mr4tno said:
Something is definitely up with Frost. His skating looks very labored and hunched over. His arms appear to be doing more work than his legs. He also seems to be having a crisis in confidence, i.e. he is afraid to make a mistake, which is a death knell for his type of player....Mission accomplished Totortella
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How about the conclusion that.... Frost is 25 years old now, and he isn't good.

He's inconsistent. Unreliable. Not a top-2 center.
 
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Ghosts Beer said:
How about the conclusion that.... Frost is 25 years old now, and he isn't good.

He's inconsistent. Unreliable. Not a top-2 center.
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Strongly agree with you. Well. Without having watched anyway. He’s not a guy that’s got a solid future with the Flyers.

Not to divert the topic, but they really do need to address the scouting, and development aspects on the team.

In 10 years we’ve got what, TK, Sanheim, and York as “success” stories? That’s brutal man.

Farabee, and Frost are on borrowed time, and have regressed if not stagnated. Tippet, and Tyson might be something but even if so - it’s a mighty short list.
 
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**I refrained from making a lengthy post about Frost for this long, so it's about time***

I thought last night was his best game in a few weeks. He looked more engaged last night than previous nights -- the offense wasn't there, but his standard defensive play was.

This figure below is pretty telling (not the xG number, just the visual). In a game where the Flyers got pumped (all shot attempts 62 -29 and non-blocked shot attempts were 36-17 at 5v5), Frost only had 6 total shot attempts against. He didn't play as much as others...but his shot rate against was the best of any Flyer (or one of them anyways). He didn't go against Stutzle at all...but he went up against the Tkachuk line, which finished the night with shot attempt line of 18-6.

1731701400369.png


Now, I understand this isn't one game, and it's not in solely indicative to Frost's play last night... But, Prior to this year, this was Frost's value. We have 2,000+ mins of ES time over the last two years that shows that he plays a style that limits shots against. What the Frost supporters have also seen (and select metrics tell us) is at times, he has ability to make certain types of plays/passes few players on the team could make. You can project that to a pretty darned good player if everything hits.

This year, Frost has had 1 good game, 1 okay game, and a bunch of absolute dog-shit games. He's the shell of himself. To me that speaks of two things 1) confidence and/or 2) injury. I'm banking more on 1 than 2. I don't fully blame him for having his confidence shot. I recognize it's not easy to go out there and work if your boss hates you and blames you for every issue (and there's lots of data that indicates that Torts doesn't like Frost). But the other side of that coin is that when his number is called, he has to play better. It is that simple.
 
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There's something wrong with Frost physically, a healthy Frost is not a below average skater, last season 93rd percentile of top speed, 86% 20+ bursts. While individual numbers tend to improve as the season progresses, so do league averages.

This goes back to Hextall and CF, just couldn't draft centers - top 100 picks:
2011: Couts (8), Cousins (68)
2012: Laughton (20)
2016: Rubtsov (22), Laberge (36), Bunnaman (109)
2017: Patrick (2), Frost (27), Strome (106)
2018: JOB (19)
2022: Gauthier (5)
2023: Barkey (95), Knuble (103)
2024: Luchanko (13), Berglund (51), Ruohonen (107)

Gauthier and Barkey have both been moved off center.
 
VladDrag said:
This year, Frost has had 1 good game, 1 okay game, and a bunch of absolute dog-shit games. He's the shell of himself. To me that speaks of two things 1) confidence and/or 2) injury. I'm banking more on 1 than 2. I don't fully blame him for having his confidence shot. I recognize it's not easy to go out there and work if your boss hates you and blames you for every issue (and there's lots of data that indicates that Torts doesn't like Frost). But the other side of that coin is that when his number is called, he has to play better. It is that simple.
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I think it's injury.

Contrary to popular belief, you don't get benched for making mistakes (you get benched for repeating the same mistake), and Torts has encouraged offensive players to be aggressive and take risks. I mean he doesn't bench TK, and no one makes more mistakes.

Frost has really improved defensively, his problem is he gets into funks where he doesn't use his speed to drive play and goes MIA for long periods. That's what gets him benched.

What shocked me last night was a loose puck that Frost saw and skated to get, but looked so slow doing so. Nor do I think he bulked up, he doesn't look or play any bigger than last season. So I'm not going to be surprised if he goes on IR in the near future.
 
deadhead said:
I think it's injury.

Contrary to popular belief, you don't get benched for making mistakes (you get benched for repeating the same mistake), and Torts has encouraged offensive players to be aggressive and take risks. I mean he doesn't bench TK, and no one makes more mistakes.

Frost has really improved defensively, his problem is he gets into funks where he doesn't use his speed to drive play and goes MIA for long periods. That's what gets him benched.

What shocked me last night was a loose puck that Frost saw and skated to get, but looked so slow doing so. Nor do I think he bulked up, he doesn't look or play any bigger than last season. So I'm not going to be surprised if he goes on IR in the near future.
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I'm not ruling out injury, but he is in the 83 percentile for 20+ bursts this year, which is pretty darned close to what it was last year. His other skating metrics are down tho too. I also haven't seen the consistent fast twitch moves either....You might be right there

I just see a player lacking any kind of confidence. Quite honestly, with his play this year, and how Torts has dealt with him in the past, I'm shocked wasn't benched more. He's not playing well for one reason or another.
 
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FlyerNutter said:
Strongly agree with you. Well. Without having watched anyway. He’s not a guy that’s got a solid future with the Flyers.

Not to divert the topic, but they really do need to address the scouting, and development aspects on the team.

In 10 years we’ve got what, TK, Sanheim, and York as “success” stories? That’s brutal man.

Farabee, and Frost are on borrowed time, and have regressed if not stagnated. Tippet, and Tyson might be something but even if so - it’s a mighty short list.
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The scouting may/may not be weak but the coaching, management and development is. Players aren't going to grow when they're being coached by Hakstol, AV and Tortorella; managed by Hextall and Fletcher. How would you fare at work with these guys utilizing your skills? Your confidence would be shot to begin and your performance would be erratic due to improper training. Say something about the treatment and you'd be fired. It's been a sad decade.
 
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So explain Sanheim developing into a #1 D-man? York becoming a solid #2, Andrae flashing skill?
Tippett going from the bench in Florida to 27 goals in Philly.
TK becoming a top 1st line wing
Ersson as a starting goalie?

I'd say the primary problem was the 2017 and 2018 drafts that produced only Frost and Farabee out of (4) 1sts and (2) 2nd rd picks, and CF trading away a full draft (1st, 2nd, 3rd) between 2019-2022, along with the Gauthier fiasco.

You simply can't miss/lose that many assets without it impacting your talent level.
The 2017-18 drafts would be 24-25 and mainstay starters, 2019-22 would be 20-23 and arriving in Philly the last couple seasons.
 
33 year old Brayden Schenn still outproducing both Farabee and Frost in 2024 is probably not what we envisioned 7 years ago.
Frost has always been kinda meh, but Farabee looked so promising. He looked like he could be great. But I'm not hopeful anymore.
 
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deadhead said:
So explain Sanheim developing into a #1 D-man?
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Everything Sanheim has ever done in this organization is in SPITE of it. His AHL time, the Hakstol plug parade, the Provorov favoritism, mediocre partners, PP time, the Krug trade.

That doesn’t have to be the case mismanaging everyone. I’m not here saying Konecny’s development was mismanaged. But Sanheim is the textbook example of attempting to mismanage a player too good to fail. They still don’t treat him like a true 1D.
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
The balls it takes to say, "Explain Sanheim" as some kind of gotcha to some people who were calling him the best D Prospect in the system as far back as 2015. Holy shit.

No. Just no. Have an ounce of shame.
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The best D prospect is not the same as "I knew he'd be a #1 D-man."

I think there's a simply explanation why Sanheim took so long to "arrive," he had this lanky frame, he could always skate but he didn't really fill out until his mid-20s. Now he's listed at 222 lbs (208 in 2021) , and watching him, I believe it, he plays a lot more physical than 2-3 years ago.

He started playing big minutes at age 25, which isn't that unusual for a D-man.

Crazy thing, only 5 D-men went in the 1st rd of that draft,
Ekblad (1), Fleury (7), Honka (14), Sanheim (17), TDA (19), Sanheim ended up the best of that group
2015:
Provorov (7), Werenski (8), Zboril (13), Chabot (18), Juulsen (26), Larsson (27), Carlsson (29)
2016:
Juolevi (5), Sergachev (9), Bean (13), MacAvoy (14), Chychrun (16), Fabbro (17), Stanley (18), Johansen (28)
2017:
Hieskanen (3), Makar (4), Foote (14), Brannstrom (15), Valimaki (16), Joseph (23), Jokihariu (28)
 
deadhead said:
The best D prospect is not the same as "I knew he'd be a #1 D-man."

I think there's a simply explanation why Sanheim took so long to "arrive," he had this lanky frame, he could always skate but he didn't really fill out until his mid-20s. Now he's listed at 222 lbs (208 in 2021) , and watching him, I believe it, he plays a lot more physical than 2-3 years ago.

He started playing big minutes at age 25, which isn't that unusual for a D-man.

Crazy thing, only 5 D-men went in the 1st rd of that draft,
Ekblad (1), Fleury (7), Honka (14), Sanheim (17), TDA (19), Sanheim ended up the best of that group
2015:
Provorov (7), Werenski (8), Zboril (13), Chabot (18), Juulsen (26), Larsson (27), Carlsson (29)
2016:
Juolevi (5), Sergachev (9), Bean (13), MacAvoy (14), Chychrun (16), Fabbro (17), Stanley (18), Johansen (28)
2017:
Hieskanen (3), Makar (4), Foote (14), Brannstrom (15), Valimaki (16), Joseph (23), Jokihariu (28)
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The simple explanation is that this organization has been ran by a bunch of morons for countless years.
 
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deadhead said:
The best D prospect is not the same as "I knew he'd be a #1 D-man."
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No. I'm sorry. You're going to get pushback when you tell people what they said consistently for a decade was wrong. You can't even keep yours consistent for 2 weeks.

The entire argument was that Sanheim had this type of reasonable ceiling while Provorov did not. Now you're explaining in new and fantastic ways how that was not what they meant. When you disagreed on prospects, that was fine. Everyone is going to see players differently. This is trying to rewrite history. Just stop.
 
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Who said what for a decade?

I don't remember anyone saying Sanheim was going to be a first pair D-man, much less a #1.

People liked him better than Provorov, but that was as much people being disillusioned with Provorov (b/c he flatlined) than anything else.

Sanheim's skating was never in doubt, but his first few years he was a lanky D-man who struggled in his D-zone b/c he could be pushed off the puck.

I don't remember anyone projecting he'd fill out to the extent he has and become a top two way D-man. That's probably the hardest thing to project in a young player, how their body will change between 18 to 25. Provorov peaked physically at 19, for example.
 
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