GDT: #13 | Flyers at Hurricanes | Tuesday, November 5, 2024 | 7:00 PM | NBCSP, 97.5 FM

[deadhead]

What do they need cap room for next year?
They're not going to sign any FAs.
And cap room no longer has a lot of trade value.

 

[freakydallas13]

Necas is, and has always been, a much better player than Frost. I don't think anyone here would argue differently, so saying that Frost isn't a top 6 forward because he's not as good as Frost is misrepresentative.

Necas has a 70 point season under his belt at age 24. He's got 20 points in 11 games so far this season. If you watched any Carolina games other than the 3-4 games against the Flyers, you can clearly see the talent level of Necas. He's always been a supremely talented player, he just hasn't always put it together when it comes to the scoresheet.

Below is his goal threat presented by Hockey Viz. You can see he's always been an above average finisher and passer. This year is not on this figure, but it's aligned with his abilities from his 25 year old season.
View attachment 926977

Here's his player card from 23-24:
View attachment 926978

Here's his player card from 22-23:

View attachment 926979

Here his player card from 21-22:

View attachment 926980

So, I'm fine if you want to scrutinize Frost. He's not been particularly great at the beginning (he's also not been nearly as bad as you're letting off). But, let's stop comparing Frost to legit top line players because that's not fair to begin with.


The Flyers wabsolutely got there asses handed to them, and only kept the game competitive because of two lucky bounces. Total shot attempts were 86-36. That's not competitive. The unblocked 5v5 shots looked like this:

View attachment 926984


Here's something where I actually agree. I think the Flyers are trying to build a team like Carolina. I think they want that aggressive, up-tempo style. But Carolina is built from top to bottom, not just the roster - the entire organization, to do this. From drafting to NHL scouting to coaching to the players, the Carolina team operates differently. Carolina would have never signed DeLo. They would never have signed that Hathaway contract extension. They wouldn't have signed Tippett to an 8 year deal. They take advantage of dumb teams all the time -- that's why they are so good.

I'd also agree that Carolina doesn't have 'superstars', but they have 3-4 forwards who are capable of scoring at a ppg, and the best supporting offensive and defensive cast in the league. I don't know how you can just hand waive the amount of raw talent this team has. The reason they can play so quick is because the entire team has an elevated skill level. The Flyers don't have anything like this in their prospect pool.

I believe the Flyers believe they are trying to emulate the Canes, but one team takes advantage of stupid teams, and one is a stupid team. You can see it play out in real time by looking at the TDA trade. The Flyers are never going to be the Canes in that trade, they are (quite literally) the Flyers.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Look at future superstar Jett's OHL stats

3 Games played
1 Assist
-3

That can't be right for slam dunk , Top 6 center next year can it ?

weird how going off board seems like a bad idea...

 

[deadhead]

I believe the Flyers believe they are trying to emulate the Canes, but one team takes advantage of stupid teams, and one is a stupid team. You can see it play out in real time by looking at the TDA trade. The Flyers are never going to be the Canes in that trade, they are (quite literally) the Flyers.

There are no "Flyers." That was Fletcher/Scott. They're long gone.

 

[freakydallas13]

There are no "Flyers." That was Fletcher/Scott. They're long gone.

I know you want to hand waive any criticism of current management, but the people who put Fletcher in power are the same people who put Briere in power. Hell the assistant GM, the coach, the advisers, Homer, they are all still here in the same positions.

Give me one example of the Briere selling early on a player and capitalizing on their value (and not one they traded just because their contract was expiring). They resign or try to resign ever player under the sun, that's the exact opposite of how the Canes operate.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Look at future superstar Jett's OHL stats

3 Games played
1 Assist
-3

That can't be right for slam dunk , Top 6 center next year can it ?

Hated the pick then, and still do now, they drafted for need and not bpa, that's how horrible franchises operate

 

[BernieParent]

There are no "Flyers." That was Fletcher/Scott. They're long gone.

Thank goodness we have turned the page on that whole front office.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Thank goodness we have turned the page on that whole front office.

Turned the page to the bad ending of the choose your own adventure book.

 

[deadhead]

I know you want to hand waive any criticism of current management, but the people who put Fletcher in power are the same people who put Briere in power. Hell the assistant GM, the coach, the advisers, Homer, they are all still here in the same positions.

Give me one example of the Briere selling early on a player and capitalizing on their value (and not one they traded just because their contract was expiring). They resign or try to resign ever player under the sun, that's the exact opposite of how the Canes operate.

What position does Homer have? Senior Advisor is a nothing burger, it only matters when someone like Scott doesn't have a clue. There are zero rumors about a "hidden cabal" running things behind the scenes. Briere kept Flahr because he watched him for a year and liked the job he did, not b/c anyone ordered him to do so.

Provorov was sold early and basically got a 1st and 2nd & Walker (other 2nd was payment for salary dump), which is pretty good for a guy who's maybe a #2 but more like a 2nd pair D-man.

Laughton is playing as well as two years ago but with less years on his contract, so his value should be similar.
Seeler, Hathaway had limited trade value, late 3rd? 4th rd?
TK was the only player who could garner value, but trading 26 year old first line forward, hard to get equivalent value in return. Meier got a 1st and 2nd (#26 in 2023, #42 in 2024).
Risto might have trade value this TDL or summer, playing better with less time on his contract.

 

[freakydallas13]

What position does Homer have? Senior Advisor is a nothing burger, it only matters when someone like Scott doesn't have a clue. There are zero rumors about a "hidden cabal" running things behind the scenes. Briere kept Flahr because he watched him for a year and liked the job he did, not b/c anyone ordered him to do so.

Provorov was sold early and basically got a 1st and 2nd & Walker (other 2nd was payment for salary dump), which is pretty good for a guy who's maybe a #2 but more like a 2nd pair D-man.

Laughton is playing as well as two years ago but with less years on his contract, so his value should be similar.
Seeler, Hathaway had limited trade value, late 3rd? 4th rd?
TK was the only player who could garner value, but trading 26 year old first line forward, hard to get equivalent value in return. Meier got a 1st and 2nd (#26 in 2023, #42 in 2024).
Risto might have trade value this TDL or summer, playing better with less time on his contract.

I asked you to give me an example of Briere selling high, and you listed a bunch of players he kept and also Provorov who this team held onto with white knuckles until his value was miniscule compared to when it was at it's highest (I don't blame Briere for Fletcher holding on to Provorov for way too long, but he also doesn't get credit for selling selling relatively low on Ivan).

You have produced zero examples to refute my point: the Canes know when to sell high, and the Flyers obsessively try to resign all their players and sell only after they have held on to a player for way too long.

Notably, I didn't mean "name players Briere sold for high value", I meant "name players Briere sold when their value was relatively high compared to no one but themselves", so listing things like "Hathaway would have only got a 3rd" is missing my point entirely.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

Look at future superstar Jett's OHL stats

3 Games played
1 Assist
-3

That can't be right for slam dunk , Top 6 center next year can it ?

but we all know it wasnt a pr move to let him start in the nhl.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Provorov was SOLD EARLY?!?!?

 

[volnoir]

At what point is Torts on the hot seat?

 

[freakydallas13]

Provorov was SOLD EARLY?!?!?

I did a double take when I read that, so thank you for validating me.

 

[Curufinwe]

I can't agree they sold low on Provorov when they got a 1st, a cap dump, and a better dman back for him, and that dman was later traded for a 1st and a cap dump.

His last two seasons in Philly were objectively poor.

 

[freakydallas13]

I can't agree they sold low on Provorov when they got a 1st, a cap dump, and a better dman back for him, and that dman was later traded for a 1st and a cap dump.

His last two seasons in Philly were objectively poor.

Well the team sure as hell didn't sell high on Provorov. If anything, they traded him because of the pride jersey fiasco rather than his performance.

Which just proves my point, they refuse to sell high other than when it is convenient for other reasons.

 

[deadhead]

Provorov who this team held onto with white knuckles until his value was miniscule compared to when it was at it's highest (I don't blame Briere for Fletcher holding on to Provorov for way too long, but he also doesn't get credit for selling selling relatively low on Ivan).

Really. Show me a trade of a D-man that garnered more!

Sergachev got Moser, Geekie, 2025 2nd
Seth Jones got a swap of 1st rd picks (#12 for #32), a 1st and 2nd
Trouba got a 1st rd plus Pionk
Hamilton got a 1st (2) 2nds
Yandle got a 1st, 2nd & DuClair

Provorov's value peaked in 2017-18, at what point since then was he worth more than what Briere got for him?

 

[freakydallas13]

Really. Show me a trade of a D-man that garnered more!

Sergachev got Moser, Geekie, 2025 2nd
Seth Jones got a swap of 1st rd picks (#12 for #32), a 1st and 2nd
Trouba got a 1st rd plus Pionk
Hamilton got a 1st (2) 2nds
Yandle got a 1st, 2nd & DuClair

Provorov's value peaked in 2017-18, at what point since then was he worth more than what Briere got for him?

I'm going to tell you for the second time that I'm not talking about a player's value relative to other players (which is useless to compare), but a player's value on their own compared to their own values.

Give me an example of a player Briere sold high on, or admit you cannot. Or better yet, give me a player we can say Briere traded *because* that player's value was high.

 

[deadhead]

I'm going to tell you for the second time that I'm not talking about a player's value relative to other players (which is useless to compare), but a player's value on their own compared to their own values.

Give me an example of a player Briere sold high on, or admit you cannot. Or better yet, give me a player we can say Briere traded *because* that player's value was high.

He sold high on Provorov, who here considered Provorov a 1st pair D-man?

He had a goal scoring heater in 2017-18, was decent the next year, but his best season as a Flyer was with Niskanen as his partner. But that made that season suspect.

Provorov was a minutes eater, but he was not a top value asset.
Never was a top ten Norris candidate, one year he got one vote.

His value has been pretty much the same the last five years.

 

[freakydallas13]

He sold high on Provorov, who here considered Provorov a 1st pair D-man?
He had a goal scoring heater in 2017-18, was decent the next year, but his best season as a Flyer was with Niskanen as his partner.
Provorov was a minutes eater, but he was not a top value asset.
Never was a top ten Norris candidate, one year he got one vote.

Fact is facts.

Deady, if you're not going to read my posts before responding it is a waste of both our time. Now, for the third time, I'm not talking about selling high compared to anyone but the player themselves. Do you think the team traded Provorov when his value was at it's highest, EVER? Because if the answer is "no", it's not an example of what I'm asking for.

 

[deadhead]

Deady, if you're not going to read my posts before responding it is a waste of both our time. Now, for the third time, I'm not talking about selling high compared to anyone but the player themselves. Do you think the team traded Provorov when his value was at it's highest, EVER? Because if the answer is "no", it's not an example of what I'm asking for.

Yes. Because as I pointed out, other than his pairing with Niskanen (which I'm sure was discounted b/c he never played that well before or after), he was the same player year in and year out.

 

[freakydallas13]

Yes. Because as I pointed out, other than his pairing with Niskanen (which I'm sure was discounted b/c he never played that well before or after), he was the same player year in and year out.

If you are asserting Provorov's value was at it's highest when Briere traded him, then I'm sorry, but you're out of your mind.

His value was sky high around the second season he played here, and it got lowered every year after when he would put up worse and worse results. Not to mention the pride debacle the season before he was traded that also no doubt lowered his value (and was more than likely the real reason the team traded him, because he was a locker room distraction at that point).

There is nothing you can say to convince me P's value was at it's peak in June 2023. Absolutely nothing. None of the evidence supports that.

 

[Audible Velvet]

I know you want to hand waive any criticism of current management, but the people who put Fletcher in power are the same people who put Briere in power. Hell the assistant GM, the coach, the advisers, Homer, they are all still here in the same positions.

Give me one example of the Briere selling early on a player and capitalizing on their value (and not one they traded just because their contract was expiring). They resign or try to resign ever player under the sun, that's the exact opposite of how the Canes operate.

And I will add that he had zero competition for the GM job, because he agreed to forfeit the autonomy of choosing his coach!

 

[deadhead]

If you are asserting Provorov's value was at it's highest when Briere traded him, then I'm sorry, but you're out of your mind.

His value was sky high around the second season he played here, and it got lowered every year after when he would put up worse and worse results. Not to mention the pride debacle the season before he was traded that also no doubt lowered his value (and was more than likely the real reason the team traded him, because he was a locker room distraction at that point).

There is nothing you can say to convince me P's value was at it's peak in June 2023. Absolutely nothing. None of the evidence supports that.

It wasn't sky high, 2017-18 was a shooting heater. He had 17 goals, otherwise his play wasn't special, Ghost was 10th in Norris voting that year, Provorov didn't get a single vote.
xGFrel -1.37, HDCFrel -0.87 on a defense with AMac, Manning and Hagg.

 

[freakydallas13]

It wasn't sky high, 2017-18 was a shooting heater. He had 17 goals, otherwise his play wasn't special, Ghost was 10th in Norris voting that year, Provorov didn't get a single vote.
xGFrel -1.37, HDCFrel -0.87 on a defense with AMac, Manning and Hagg.

Do I have to explain the basic concept of "young player with high potential is worth more than same player but older who failed to live up to that potential" to you? Because I have to be honest, it's so simple and such an automatic assumption that there isn't any way I can do it without it coming off extremely condescending and like I'm explaining it to a 5 year old. Is this really the path you want to go down? Because I'll do it if that's the case.

Or are you willing to admit maybe you're entertaining a completely insane position here, that maybe you were wrong about Provorov's value being at it's highest in June 2023, and you're doing it because you can't come up with another example for the question I asked you earlier?