GDT: #13 | Flyers at Hurricanes | Tuesday, November 5, 2024 | 7:00 PM | NBCSP, 97.5 FM

[deadhead]

I believe the Flyers believe they are trying to emulate the Canes, but one team takes advantage of stupid teams, and one is a stupid team. You can see it play out in real time by looking at the TDA trade. The Flyers are never going to be the Canes in that trade, they are (quite literally) the Flyers.

There are no "Flyers." That was Fletcher/Scott. They're long gone.

 

[freakydallas13]

There are no "Flyers." That was Fletcher/Scott. They're long gone.

I know you want to hand waive any criticism of current management, but the people who put Fletcher in power are the same people who put Briere in power. Hell the assistant GM, the coach, the advisers, Homer, they are all still here in the same positions.

Give me one example of the Briere selling early on a player and capitalizing on their value (and not one they traded just because their contract was expiring). They resign or try to resign ever player under the sun, that's the exact opposite of how the Canes operate.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Look at future superstar Jett's OHL stats

3 Games played
1 Assist
-3

That can't be right for slam dunk , Top 6 center next year can it ?

Hated the pick then, and still do now, they drafted for need and not bpa, that's how horrible franchises operate

 

[BernieParent]

There are no "Flyers." That was Fletcher/Scott. They're long gone.

Thank goodness we have turned the page on that whole front office.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Thank goodness we have turned the page on that whole front office.

Turned the page to the bad ending of the choose your own adventure book.

 

[deadhead]

I know you want to hand waive any criticism of current management, but the people who put Fletcher in power are the same people who put Briere in power. Hell the assistant GM, the coach, the advisers, Homer, they are all still here in the same positions.

Give me one example of the Briere selling early on a player and capitalizing on their value (and not one they traded just because their contract was expiring). They resign or try to resign ever player under the sun, that's the exact opposite of how the Canes operate.

What position does Homer have? Senior Advisor is a nothing burger, it only matters when someone like Scott doesn't have a clue. There are zero rumors about a "hidden cabal" running things behind the scenes. Briere kept Flahr because he watched him for a year and liked the job he did, not b/c anyone ordered him to do so.

Provorov was sold early and basically got a 1st and 2nd & Walker (other 2nd was payment for salary dump), which is pretty good for a guy who's maybe a #2 but more like a 2nd pair D-man.

Laughton is playing as well as two years ago but with less years on his contract, so his value should be similar.
Seeler, Hathaway had limited trade value, late 3rd? 4th rd?
TK was the only player who could garner value, but trading 26 year old first line forward, hard to get equivalent value in return. Meier got a 1st and 2nd (#26 in 2023, #42 in 2024).
Risto might have trade value this TDL or summer, playing better with less time on his contract.

 

[freakydallas13]

What position does Homer have? Senior Advisor is a nothing burger, it only matters when someone like Scott doesn't have a clue. There are zero rumors about a "hidden cabal" running things behind the scenes. Briere kept Flahr because he watched him for a year and liked the job he did, not b/c anyone ordered him to do so.

Provorov was sold early and basically got a 1st and 2nd & Walker (other 2nd was payment for salary dump), which is pretty good for a guy who's maybe a #2 but more like a 2nd pair D-man.

Laughton is playing as well as two years ago but with less years on his contract, so his value should be similar.
Seeler, Hathaway had limited trade value, late 3rd? 4th rd?
TK was the only player who could garner value, but trading 26 year old first line forward, hard to get equivalent value in return. Meier got a 1st and 2nd (#26 in 2023, #42 in 2024).
Risto might have trade value this TDL or summer, playing better with less time on his contract.

I asked you to give me an example of Briere selling high, and you listed a bunch of players he kept and also Provorov who this team held onto with white knuckles until his value was miniscule compared to when it was at it's highest (I don't blame Briere for Fletcher holding on to Provorov for way too long, but he also doesn't get credit for selling selling relatively low on Ivan).

You have produced zero examples to refute my point: the Canes know when to sell high, and the Flyers obsessively try to resign all their players and sell only after they have held on to a player for way too long.

Notably, I didn't mean "name players Briere sold for high value", I meant "name players Briere sold when their value was relatively high compared to no one but themselves", so listing things like "Hathaway would have only got a 3rd" is missing my point entirely.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

Look at future superstar Jett's OHL stats

3 Games played
1 Assist
-3

That can't be right for slam dunk , Top 6 center next year can it ?

but we all know it wasnt a pr move to let him start in the nhl.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Provorov was SOLD EARLY?!?!?

 

[volnoir]

At what point is Torts on the hot seat?

 

[freakydallas13]

Provorov was SOLD EARLY?!?!?

I did a double take when I read that, so thank you for validating me.

 

[Curufinwe]

I can't agree they sold low on Provorov when they got a 1st, a cap dump, and a better dman back for him, and that dman was later traded for a 1st and a cap dump.

His last two seasons in Philly were objectively poor.

 

[freakydallas13]

I can't agree they sold low on Provorov when they got a 1st, a cap dump, and a better dman back for him, and that dman was later traded for a 1st and a cap dump.

His last two seasons in Philly were objectively poor.

Well the team sure as hell didn't sell high on Provorov. If anything, they traded him because of the pride jersey fiasco rather than his performance.

Which just proves my point, they refuse to sell high other than when it is convenient for other reasons.

 

[deadhead]

Provorov who this team held onto with white knuckles until his value was miniscule compared to when it was at it's highest (I don't blame Briere for Fletcher holding on to Provorov for way too long, but he also doesn't get credit for selling selling relatively low on Ivan).

Really. Show me a trade of a D-man that garnered more!

Sergachev got Moser, Geekie, 2025 2nd
Seth Jones got a swap of 1st rd picks (#12 for #32), a 1st and 2nd
Trouba got a 1st rd plus Pionk
Hamilton got a 1st (2) 2nds
Yandle got a 1st, 2nd & DuClair

Provorov's value peaked in 2017-18, at what point since then was he worth more than what Briere got for him?

 

[freakydallas13]

Really. Show me a trade of a D-man that garnered more!

Sergachev got Moser, Geekie, 2025 2nd
Seth Jones got a swap of 1st rd picks (#12 for #32), a 1st and 2nd
Trouba got a 1st rd plus Pionk
Hamilton got a 1st (2) 2nds
Yandle got a 1st, 2nd & DuClair

Provorov's value peaked in 2017-18, at what point since then was he worth more than what Briere got for him?

I'm going to tell you for the second time that I'm not talking about a player's value relative to other players (which is useless to compare), but a player's value on their own compared to their own values.

Give me an example of a player Briere sold high on, or admit you cannot. Or better yet, give me a player we can say Briere traded *because* that player's value was high.

 

[deadhead]

I'm going to tell you for the second time that I'm not talking about a player's value relative to other players (which is useless to compare), but a player's value on their own compared to their own values.

Give me an example of a player Briere sold high on, or admit you cannot. Or better yet, give me a player we can say Briere traded *because* that player's value was high.

He sold high on Provorov, who here considered Provorov a 1st pair D-man?

He had a goal scoring heater in 2017-18, was decent the next year, but his best season as a Flyer was with Niskanen as his partner. But that made that season suspect.

Provorov was a minutes eater, but he was not a top value asset.
Never was a top ten Norris candidate, one year he got one vote.

His value has been pretty much the same the last five years.

 

[freakydallas13]

He sold high on Provorov, who here considered Provorov a 1st pair D-man?
He had a goal scoring heater in 2017-18, was decent the next year, but his best season as a Flyer was with Niskanen as his partner.
Provorov was a minutes eater, but he was not a top value asset.
Never was a top ten Norris candidate, one year he got one vote.

Fact is facts.

Deady, if you're not going to read my posts before responding it is a waste of both our time. Now, for the third time, I'm not talking about selling high compared to anyone but the player themselves. Do you think the team traded Provorov when his value was at it's highest, EVER? Because if the answer is "no", it's not an example of what I'm asking for.

 

[deadhead]

Deady, if you're not going to read my posts before responding it is a waste of both our time. Now, for the third time, I'm not talking about selling high compared to anyone but the player themselves. Do you think the team traded Provorov when his value was at it's highest, EVER? Because if the answer is "no", it's not an example of what I'm asking for.

Yes. Because as I pointed out, other than his pairing with Niskanen (which I'm sure was discounted b/c he never played that well before or after), he was the same player year in and year out.

 

[freakydallas13]

Yes. Because as I pointed out, other than his pairing with Niskanen (which I'm sure was discounted b/c he never played that well before or after), he was the same player year in and year out.

If you are asserting Provorov's value was at it's highest when Briere traded him, then I'm sorry, but you're out of your mind.

His value was sky high around the second season he played here, and it got lowered every year after when he would put up worse and worse results. Not to mention the pride debacle the season before he was traded that also no doubt lowered his value (and was more than likely the real reason the team traded him, because he was a locker room distraction at that point).

There is nothing you can say to convince me P's value was at it's peak in June 2023. Absolutely nothing. None of the evidence supports that.

 

[Audible Velvet]

I know you want to hand waive any criticism of current management, but the people who put Fletcher in power are the same people who put Briere in power. Hell the assistant GM, the coach, the advisers, Homer, they are all still here in the same positions.

Give me one example of the Briere selling early on a player and capitalizing on their value (and not one they traded just because their contract was expiring). They resign or try to resign ever player under the sun, that's the exact opposite of how the Canes operate.

And I will add that he had zero competition for the GM job, because he agreed to forfeit the autonomy of choosing his coach!

 

[deadhead]

If you are asserting Provorov's value was at it's highest when Briere traded him, then I'm sorry, but you're out of your mind.

His value was sky high around the second season he played here, and it got lowered every year after when he would put up worse and worse results. Not to mention the pride debacle the season before he was traded that also no doubt lowered his value (and was more than likely the real reason the team traded him, because he was a locker room distraction at that point).

There is nothing you can say to convince me P's value was at it's peak in June 2023. Absolutely nothing. None of the evidence supports that.

It wasn't sky high, 2017-18 was a shooting heater. He had 17 goals, otherwise his play wasn't special, Ghost was 10th in Norris voting that year, Provorov didn't get a single vote.
xGFrel -1.37, HDCFrel -0.87 on a defense with AMac, Manning and Hagg.

 

[freakydallas13]

It wasn't sky high, 2017-18 was a shooting heater. He had 17 goals, otherwise his play wasn't special, Ghost was 10th in Norris voting that year, Provorov didn't get a single vote.
xGFrel -1.37, HDCFrel -0.87 on a defense with AMac, Manning and Hagg.

Do I have to explain the basic concept of "young player with high potential is worth more than same player but older who failed to live up to that potential" to you? Because I have to be honest, it's so simple and such an automatic assumption that there isn't any way I can do it without it coming off extremely condescending and like I'm explaining it to a 5 year old. Is this really the path you want to go down? Because I'll do it if that's the case.

Or are you willing to admit maybe you're entertaining a completely insane position here, that maybe you were wrong about Provorov's value being at it's highest in June 2023, and you're doing it because you can't come up with another example for the question I asked you earlier?

 

[deadhead]

Do I have to explain the incredibly basic concept of "young player with high potential is worth more than same player but older who failed to live up to that potential" to you? Because I have to be honest, it's so simple and such an automatic assumption that there isn't any way I can do it without it coming off extremely condescending and like I'm explaining it to a 5 year old. Is this really the path you want to go down? Because I'll do it if that's the case.

Or are you willing to admit maybe you're entertaining a completely insane position here, and that maybe you were wrong about Provorov's value being at it's highest in June 2023, and you're doing it because you can't come up with another example for the question I asked you earlier?

I didn't say his value was at its highest, I said his value was pretty flat over his career.
Provorov was a workout freak and physically mature at 19, at 24, same body, same player.
He's not a bad player, he's having a good season paired with Werenski.
But he's never been recognized as a top D-man, not in 2017-18, not now.

 

[deadhead]

Do I have to explain the basic concept of "young player with high potential is worth more than same player but older who failed to live up to that potential" to you? Because I have to be honest, it's so simple and such an automatic assumption that there isn't any way I can do it without it coming off extremely condescending and like I'm explaining it to a 5 year old. Is this really the path you want to go down? Because I'll do it if that's the case.

Or are you willing to admit maybe you're entertaining a completely insane position here, that maybe you were wrong about Provorov's value being at it's highest in June 2023, and you're doing it because you can't come up with another example for the question I asked you earlier?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make?
That the Flyers should have traded Provorov in the summer of 2018? 2020?
I mean this whole conversation is silly.

Basically you want to blame Briere for not being GM five years ago?
He wasn't able to do anything until the summer of 2023.
He then proceeded to trade Provorov, dump Hayes and TDA.
This summer he bought out Atkinson and probably would have bought out Johansen.
So the complaint is he didn't trade Seeler and Hathaway for a 3rd and 4th so they could play Eklind and Ginning this season?

 

[freakydallas13]

I didn't say his value was at its highest, I said his value was pretty flat over his career.
Provorov was a workout freak and physically mature at 19, at 24, same body, same player.
He's not a bad player, he's having a good season paired with Werenski.
But he's never been recognized as a top D-man, not in 2017-18, not now.

Great, his value was pretty flat over his career. It's a stupid proposition I disagree wholeheartedly with, but let's assume for the sake of argument it's true.

It's impossible to sell high on Provorov, because his value was flat; there are no peaks on a flat plain. It's also equally true that trading him summer 2023 is selling low in that case.

So now that we agree it was definitionally impossible for the team to sell high on Provorov, give me a single player Briere sold high on. And one who Briere sold because that player's value was high.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make?
That the Flyers should have traded Provorov in the summer of 2018? 2020?
I mean this whole conversation is silly.

Basically you want to blame Briere for not being GM five years ago?
He wasn't able to do anything until the summer of 2023.
He then proceeded to trade Provorov, dump Hayes and TDA.
This summer he bought out Atkinson and probably would have bought out Johansen.
So the complaint is he didn't trade Seeler and Hathaway for a 3rd and 4th so they could play Eklind and Ginning this season?

I wasn't even having a conversation with you, I commented on someone else's post about how Briere isn't a GM like the Canes' GM because the Canes sell high on players and Briere doesn't.

You came in and started sounding off about how Provorov was selling high, not me. Don't get upset at me because your proposition makes no sense. If you read my first post, I explicitly stated I don't blame Briere for not Fletcher's mistake, but I also don't give him credit for "trading Provorov at a high" like you seem to think he did.