Prospect Info: 12th Overall 2024 Draft, LHD Zeev Buium

[Dr Jan Itor]

Why don’t you give me the run down on what Middleton is better at that doesn’t take into account his size or physicality.

Since neither need to be a part of the arguments, then I guess we can keep Spurgeon around.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Since neither need to be a part of the arguments, then I guess we can keep Spurgeon around.

I think you missed something there, champ. I’m arguing that Middleton is only in the top 4 due to his size and physicality. Please read the entire conversation next time.

AKL is being purposefully vague because if they were to go into specifics their argument would back up what I’m saying.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I think you missed something there, champ. I’m arguing that Middleton is only in the top 4 due to his size and physicality. Please read the entire conversation next time.

AKL is being purposefully vague because if they were to go into specifics their argument would back up what I’m saying.

Ok, explain why Chisholm is better, but don't take into account skating or passing.

 

[AKL]

AKL is being purposefully vague because if they were to go into specifics their argument would back up what I’m saying.

No I just don't care to play your stupid game. Middleton is a better player than Chisholm at this point. He is a more effective hockey player. He is better at playing ice hockey. That's why he plays in the top four with Spurgeon and why Chisholm was a waiver pickup that played on the bottom pair. It doesn't matter if Chisholm is a better passer than Middleton. That is one singular aspect of the game that Middleton is better at than Chisholm. If Middleton was 6'1 and 190 he'd still play over Chisholm because he's a better player than Chisholm. It doesn't matter why.

 

[Wabit]

Middleton is a solid bottom pair d-man. Chisholm is a fringe NHL d-man.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

This isn't to say that Chisholm can't be more. He's 24 with 33 NHL games under his belt.

Middleton played 14 NHL games through age 25.

There's nothing definitive about Chisholm as an NHL player right now.

 

[AKL]

This isn't to say that Chisholm can't be more. He's 24 with 33 NHL games under his belt.

Middleton played 14 NHL games through age 25.

There's nothing definitive about Chisholm as an NHL player right now.

That's why I keep reiterating "right now", "at this point", "through last season". If Chisholm becomes a better player than Middleton, he will play above Middleton, despite Middleton's size and physicality advantage.

It's why Greenway played on the third line. It's why Foligno plays on the third line. It's why Ek played on the third line until he was good enough at hockey to move up the lineup.

 

[Waiver Draft]

First Light - An Exclusive Q&A with Zeev Buium | Minnesota Wild

“I know that it's a special opportunity, a special moment in my life. I just want to have fun with it.”

www.nhl.com

 

[BagHead]

Ok, explain why Chisholm is better, but don't take into account skating or passing.

That's not what he was saying. He was saying originally that size and the ability to not get tossed around due to size is important. He's saying that Middleton is in the top-4 because of those things. If all that matters is skill (skating, puck handling, shooting, passing, good stick in lanes, etc.), Middleton wouldn't have a place in the top-4. That he does have a place there proves that size and strength matters to some degree. He's said what he did because people seemed to be arguing against that.

 

[AKL]

That's not what he was saying. He was saying originally that size and the ability to not get tossed around due to size is important. He's saying that Middleton is in the top-4 because of those things. If all that matters is skill (skating, puck handling, shooting, passing, good stick in lanes, etc.), Middleton wouldn't have a place in the top-4. That he does have a place there proves that size and strength matters to some degree. He's said what he did because people seemed to be arguing against that.

If the argument is that Middleton is better at playing ice hockey than Chisholm in part because of his size, strength and physicality, I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

If the argument is that Middleton is only playing on the second pair because he's bigger, stronger and more physical, despite being a worse player in every other aspect (which is what seems to be the argument he was going for), well obviously quite a few people disagree with that.

 

[Digitalbooya]

No I just don't care to play your stupid game. Middleton is a better player than Chisholm at this point. He is a more effective hockey player. He is better at playing ice hockey. That's why he plays in the top four with Spurgeon and why Chisholm was a waiver pickup that played on the bottom pair. It doesn't matter if Chisholm is a better passer than Middleton. That is one singular aspect of the game that Middleton is better at than Chisholm. If Middleton was 6'1 and 190 he'd still play over Chisholm because he's a better player than Chisholm. It doesn't matter why.

You keep saying this, but you can’t point to what exactly he’s better at if you’re not allowed to say physicality If it is so clear that Middleton is better at something besides size and physicality, one would think it would be easy to point out.

And I agree Chisholm is at best a 3rd pairing guy. This conversation is driving home my point.

 

[AKL]

You keep saying this, but you can’t point to what exactly he’s better at if you’re not allowed to say physicality If it is so clear that Middleton is better at something besides size and physicality, one would think it would be easy to point out.

And I agree Chisholm is at best a 3rd pairing guy. This conversation is driving home my point.

You posited that Middleton is on the second pair solely because he's big and physical.

I said he's actually on the second pair because he's a better player than any other LD we have, not named Brodin.

Dissecting each of their games and identifying what aspect each is better at was never part of the point, and it doesn't matter, because Chisholm having more offensive tools, and being a better passer, and being a better skater matters as much for him as it did for Addison.

Obviously you must think Chisholm is a better player, fine, I don't really care. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who agrees with you, but you're entitled to your opinion. But I also don't care about making you think that Middleton is better in the same way that I don't care about making flat earthers think the world is round.

So to be clear, it's not a matter of "can't", it's a matter of "won't".

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Middleton was in the top 4 because he was established and Chisholm was a complete NHL unknown and only had 29 games to show out, which isn't enough time to draw any sort of conclusion.

He is completely free to rock out at whatever spot they put him in to start, and show that he belongs further up the lineup. That is something that is in his complete control, and no, he did not do enough last year to start with a leg up this year.

Let's see that skating/passing/shooting manifest itself into more than 3 ES points in 29 games before going to crazy about where he's slotted in the lineup.

 

[Digitalbooya]

You posited that Middleton is on the second pair solely because he's big and physical.

I said he's actually on the second pair because he's a better player than any other LD we have, not named Brodin.

You’re literally agreeing with me. You’re just too stubborn to admit it. He’s better because his size and physicality is better than Chisholm’s.

Obviously you must think Chisholm is a better player, fine, I don't really care. I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who agrees with you, but you're entitled to your opinion. But I also don't care about making you think that Middleton is better in the same way that I don't care about making flat earthers think the world is round.

Hey, nice strawman argument.

I said Middleton is in the top 4 because of his size and physicality helping Spurgeon, whom is very deficient in those areas. Chisholm is just an example I used to point out that nothing about Middleton is top 4 level if you take away his size and physicality. You’re the one getting bent out of shape over it, but cannot properly refute it.

So to be clear, it's not a matter of "can't", it's a matter of "won't".

It’s pretty clear you won’t because you can’t.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Middleton was in the top 4 because he was established and Chisholm was a complete NHL unknown and only had 29 games to show out, which isn't enough time to draw any sort of conclusion.

He is completely free to rock out at whatever spot they put him in to start, and show that he belongs further up the lineup. That is something that is in his complete control, and no, he did not do enough last year to start with a leg up this year.

Let's see that skating/passing/shooting manifest itself into more than 3 ES points in 29 games before going to crazy about where he's slotted in the lineup.

Who are you even arguing with right now? Nobody has said that Chisholm should be in the top 4.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Who are you even arguing with right now? Nobody has said that Chisholm should be in the top 4.

"Middleton shouldn't be in the top 4 at all".

Makes it seem like you had somebody else in mind. I was guessing it wasn't Merrill.

 

[TaLoN]

There are a lot of players who have all the tools, but despite those tools, never manage to become effective players in the NHL. There are also players who have limited tools, yet still find ways to be effective anyway.

Chisholm is a multi-tool guy who is trying to find his way. Middleton is a more limited guy who seems to have found an effective niche.

Middleton right now is more effective in most aspects of the game despite not having better individual skills than Chisholm, and it's the effectiveness that ultimately matters when it comes to saying who the better player is currently. Currently, Middleton is the better player until the proven otherwise.

 

[Digitalbooya]

"Middleton shouldn't be in the top 4 at all".

Makes it seem like you had somebody else in mind. I was guessing it wasn't Merrill.

He’s not a top 4 guy on a contender. Him being in our top 4 is not a good thing.

 

[AKL]

He’s not a top 4 guy on a contender. Him being in our top 4 is not a good thing.

Who are you even arguing with right now? No one has said otherwise

 

[TaLoN]

He’s not a top 4 guy on a contender. Him being in our top 4 is not a good thing.

Don't think anyone claimed otherwise?

 

[Owen Nolan]

He’s not a top 4 guy on a contender. Him being in our top 4 is not a good thing.

The Wild aren’t contenders due to things of greater importance than Jake Middleton.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

He’s not a top 4 guy on a contender. Him being in our top 4 is not a good thing.

Yeah, but the team basically is what it is at this point. Roster is set for this year. In a perfect world, there's a lot of spots I think need upgrading before being a true CONTENDER. 2nd/3rd LD is pretty far down my list.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Who are you even arguing with right now? No one has said otherwise

Don't think anyone claimed otherwise?

It’s tying back to my original point that Spurgeon is a problem. He needs a dude like Middleton to do the heavy lifting. Are we gonna ask a rookie Zeev Buium to do the heavy lifting on that pairing because our captain is the size of a middle schooler?

The Wild aren’t contenders due to things of greater importance than Jake Middleton.

Half of our top 4 is a problem. That is a huge issue.

Yeah, but the team basically is what it is at this point. Roster is set for this year. In a perfect world, there's a lot of spots I think need upgrading before being a true CONTENDER. 2nd/3rd LD is pretty far down my list.

Yeah, because Billy locked in bottom pairing and bottom 6 guys into dumb contracts.

You don’t need to upgrade LD. The upgrade is already in the wings. The problem is RD (specifically Spurgeon), which is where this conversation started.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Half of our top 4 is a problem. That is a huge issue.

So is half of the top 6. And the entirety of the net.

I'll take Spurgeon in his spot over Zucc and Fleury (and last year's Gus) in theirs any day.

 

[Wabit]

The Wild aren’t contenders due to things of greater importance than Jake Middleton.

1C, top-4 LD and RD those are the 3 roster holes (not counting goalie). So really it's one thing of greater importance.