• 2018 Off-Season Thread •

[Viqsi]

Absolutely. You dont win the cup by having solid forwards, and an abundance of defense in the new Nhl. You need some elite or near elite offensive players. The cbj have Panarin, and a big drop off. Lets be real, Pittsburgh, Chicago, and the Kings. Well rounded teams. But the elite players on those teams are on the offensive side of the ice. Look at Nashville, they realized this. Hopefully Jarmo is making calls, and all options are on the table, other than Jones.

Yes; that's why they were able to trade their up-and-coming fourth #1 defenseman. Our equivalent would involve somehow getting a #1C for Nutivaara, except that Nuti is actually playing higher in the lineup.

We're able to talk about being level with Nashville on the blueline nowadays mostly because the bottom pairing there is dubious at best. They have two top pairings. We've got one, and that largely because they could have had three top pairings but figured it was overkill. We have two second pairings, which is nice, but it's not going to get us a top C, and the guys we'd have to move to make that happen are guys we can't afford to move.

Or, put differently: Nashville's center depth is really very good right now, with Joey and Turris and Bonino and Fisher and Jarnkrok and Sissons. Take out of Joey or Turris, tho, and it's suddenly exposed. Our blueline is in a similar state. (Except that Jones and Z are arguably better blueliners than Joey and Turris are centers.)

 

[CBJx614]

Also, why are Werenski's injuries used as an excuse for his "poor" or "lackadaisical" play? Injury is the 1st excuse thrown out there any time Werenski doesn't look great.

Pretty ridiculous, in contrast to how Murray is treated regarding injuries, or potential/possible injury.

No?

Watch the video I just posted. Torts talks about how he had a talk with Werenski about the differences between hurt, sore and injured and how Werenski was right on the line of sore and hurt and that he did a helluva job pushing through it even though there was definitely an underlying injury.

Some injuries allow you to play while others don't.

 

[thebus88]

Three strawmen in one sentence. You're going to need plenty of straw.

Fortunately "straw" is easier to acquire than a "heart" is.

List the 3 strawmen please.

 

[Viqsi]

Also, why are Werenski's injuries used as an excuse for his "poor" or "lackadaisical" play? Injury is the 1st excuse thrown out there any time Werenski doesn't look great.

Pretty ridiculous, in contrast to how Murray is treated regarding injuries, or potential/possible injury.

No?

That's probably because Werenski plays through those injuries, while Murray ends up unable to play at all.

 

[blahblah]

I highly recommend capfriendly.com for salary/cap info.

It's what I use.

 

[Viqsi]

Three strawmen in one sentence. You're going to need plenty of straw.

Come now, Pharaoh. How are we to make bricks opinions without straw?

* * *​

Fortunately "straw" is easier to acquire than a "heart" is.

List the 3 strawmen please.

#1: That anyone expressing reservations about a Werenski trade are utterly unwilling to trade him no matter what the deal. (Some of us are more reluctant than others, but that's not the same thing.)
#2: That those same folks were similarly utterly unwilling to trade Johansen, no matter what. (Yes, some of us were also more reluctant than others on that one, too.)
#3: That those same folks also thought of Seth Jones as a bottom-pairing defenseman. (...yeah, that's pretty much nobody here.)

 

[CBJx614]

guarantee Wennberg will bounce back next year, he'd played through injuries most players wouldn't play through which put him in a great deal of pain
-jarmo

Yeah he's a soft player alright.

 

[blahblah]

The people who immediately shoot down the idea of dealing Werenski are just like those who GUARANTEED we would never move "the franchises only 1c in history" for a "3rd pairing" Seth Jones.

Pretty silly comparison. Honestly, I really don't remember what I said but since I wasn't all that hung up on Johansen I probably wasn't in that camp. I shot down the idea because I think it's a piss poor idea. If the FO did move him, I would wait and see what the deal was before I gave my opinion.

Frankly I'm ok with PLD as the top line center right now. I'd be ok revisiting it after another season. I'm far more interested in discussing our options at center further down the lineup. We are going to need more center depth, but I don't think it needs to be in the form of top line or elite help. Perhaps I will change my mind in another season or two.

 

[blahblah]

"I guarantee Wennberg will bounce back next year, he'd played through injuries most players wouldn't play through which caused him in a great deal of pain"

He's not even remotely soft. Some of our fans are in pile on mode. I guess if they throw enough random crap around they can somehow change our minds or intimidate us?

 

[CBJx614]

He's not even remotely soft. Some of our fans are in pile on mode. I guess if they throw enough random crap around they can somehow change our minds or intimidate us?

Granted it wasn't word for word but he said there were injuries definitely affecting his game. And he's not really looking to upgrade the center position, there's a lot of talent from within and it's a luxury to have a player like Jenner on the wing and still have someone like Sedlak who can be better next season as well.

 

[CBJx614]

Damn they were thinking Vignault(sp?) had a shot to make the roster during camp until his injury.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Will he? We'll have to see. Thus far is goal production isn't really at the 10 million mark yet. To put this in perspective there are still only 3 players with a 10 million+ cap hit. He is also a RFA.

Kicks in next season

Jack Eichel - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

64 points in 67 games

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Is a Murray-Jones pairing ANY worse than a Werenski-Jones pairing?

I'm talking about winning hockey games, not statistical offensive production from the defense pairing.

The people who immediately shoot down the idea of dealing Werenski are just like those who GUARANTEED we would never move "the franchises only 1c in history" for a "3rd pairing" Seth Jones.

Yes. Jones and Werenski make the other team afraid of all 5 skaters on the ice. All being a threat to score. With Murray, they only fear 4. Not that Murray is bad by any stretch, but it is very different. It's an improvement, probably, on the defensive side but a major regression offensively.

You made the 2nd part up. At the time, the people who DIDN'T want to trade Johansen thought a Jones-Johansen swap wasn't off base but was slanted to Nashville because Jones was unproven. Those who did want to trade Johansen agreed, but still wanted the deal to happen. How do I know? Because I was actually here.

Also, why are Werenski's injuries used as an excuse for his "poor" or "lackadaisical" play? Injury is the 1st excuse thrown out there any time Werenski doesn't look great.

Pretty ridiculous, in contrast to how Murray is treated regarding injuries, or potential/possible injury.

No?

He scored 16 f***ing goals, made the ASG, and had 37 points as a 19/20 year old. That's "poor" or "lackadaisacal"? I wish our whole team was that poor.

I'm not a Murray basher, but Murray has had far more injuries, unplayable injuries mind you, in his first few seasons than Werenski had in his first two. If you look at the overall body of work, then it's not even close.

 

[stevo61]

Yes. Jones and Werenski make the other team afraid of all 5 skaters on the ice. All being a threat to score. With Murray, they only fear 4. Not that Murray is bad by any stretch, but it is very different. It's an improvement, probably, on the defensive side but a major regression offensively.

You made the 2nd part up. At the time, the people who DIDN'T want to trade Johansen thought a Jones-Johansen swap wasn't off base but was slanted to Nashville because Jones was unproven. Those who did want to trade Johansen agreed, but still wanted the deal to happen. How do I know? Because I was actually here.



He scored 16 ****ing goals, made the ASG, and had 37 points as a 19/20 year old. That's "poor" or "lackadaisacal"? I wish our whole team was that poor.

I'm not a Murray basher, but Murray has had far more injuries, unplayable injuries mind you, in his first few seasons than Werenski had in his first two. If you look at the overall body of work, then it's not even close.

to the 1st point yes they are more afraid when Werenski is added to the mix but at the same time that can impact our own zone with all the odd man rushes the other way. I like Z and curious to know what he was battling all yearbut im in the group that likes a defensive guy with the offensive/2 way guys. I think Murray-Jones as a whole is better then Werenski-Jones. The issues that creates however is who plays that role for Werenski. All that said though, i should probably move on from the thought because Torts shuts down any question of seperating them as they grow together

 

[thebus88]

Watch the video I just posted. Torts talks about how he had a talk with Werenski about the differences between hurt, sore and injured and how Werenski was right on the line of sore and hurt and that he did a helluva job pushing through it even though there was definitely an underlying injury.

Some injuries allow you to play while others don't.

Ok... So, Werenski gets credit for playing through a minor injury AND his "hit or miss" play is also excused because of said injury.

Whereas Murray is attacked for every shift he misses, whether he's torn his MCL, been banged up a bit, or is simply having his skate blade/visor replaced. I literally cant remember a single poster (besides myself) who has EVER given any CREDIT to Murray for playing through an injury, let alone him simply given an excuse for sub "2nd overall quality" type play.

Right?

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Werenski played through injuries. Murray misses almost as many games as he plays.

 

[thebus88]

That's probably because Werenski plays through those injuries, while Murray ends up unable to play at all.

RIGHT, as if YOU know all the injuries Murray has or hasn't played though in his career.

You guys don't even know what injuries Werenski has NOW.

If it comes out (hasn't it though?) that Murray has been playing through injury, will he be applauded, or will it be more proof he's "injury prone"?

 

[stevo61]

Also to add to my previous point. Our team struggled with depth scoring, i think spreading the talent on the back end in proves that having a group of something potentially like Milano/Jenner-Wennberg-Bjorkstrand with Werenski-Nuti/Whoever looks more dangerous then Murray-Nuti.
I also believe Bjorkstrand takes a step forward next year and hope Milano does aswell, we really need what they could potentially bring

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Ok... So, Werenski gets credit for playing through a minor injury

He couldn't fire a slap shot since November, his biggest weapon. Still 2nd in the NHL in goals for d-men.

I am 90% sure he has a torn rotator cuff and will need surgery. He can't lift his arm over his head.

 

[stevo61]

Also why do when put down other players to defend the ones we like more? Seems pretty silly to me

 

[Cyclones Rock]

If it comes out (hasn't it though?) that Murray has been playing through injury, will he be applauded, or will it be more proof he's "injury prone"?

Yes. It would be.

Z>>>>>>>>>>>murray

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Also why do when put down other players to defend the ones we like more? Seems pretty silly to me

Its what he does. Tears down Wennberg and Johansen (still, for some reason) to build up Dubinsky, tears down Bobrovsky for "Vezina" Korpisalo, Z for Murray. etc

 

[Cyclones Rock]

He couldn't fire a slap shot since November, his biggest weapon. Still 2nd in the NHL in goals for d-men.

I am 90% sure he has a torn rotator cuff and will need surgery. He can't lift his arm over his head.

It's a stat I don't often check. Pretty good for having one good arm if it's a rotator cuff issue.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

It's a stat I don't often check. Pretty good for having one good arm if it's a rotator cuff issue.

I just scheduled my own rotator cuff surgery in June. And I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, it's what it looked like to me.

 

[EDM]

If he has rotator cuff surgery, i wonder if he can heal in time for next season.