2023-24 Hart Memorial Trophy finalists: Nikita Kucherov, Nathan MacKinnon, Connor McDavid

[HolyGhost]

You guys have serious problems.

go back to the last 2 years discussion on this topic and how SO many leaf fans made that the key selling point regardless of how many pts MAtthews was behind whomever was in the lead. So, the standards of opinion by leaf fans was set in those discussions

 

[Leaf Fans]

go back to the last 2 years discussion on this topic and how SO many leaf fans made that the key selling point regardless of how many pts MAtthews was behind whomever was in the lead. So, the standards of opinion by leaf fans was set in those discussions

So now you have trouble believing Matthews is not a finalist because of what some Maple Leafs fans said 2 years ago? He had an excellent year, but I think the finalist are the best ones. Perhaps when the votes become public, Mathews might be in the top 5. You are aware that Maple Leaf fans have no more or no less information than anyone else.

 

[Crunchrulz]

The award is for the Most Valuable to your team. Given the percentage of Lightning points that Kuch figured in, he should get the award.
That being typed, without his consistent play this season, the Lightning do not make the playoffs and may have fallen all the way to the Lottery. Most of the other high contract Lightning players were either hurt, underperformed, or both for most of the season. 54 points is an excellent season for most NHL players, and that is what the gap was between Kucherov and Point, who finished second on the Lightning in points.

 

[HFpapi]

I would have had Hughes on my ballot, but I'm not surprised.

It's a crazy and weird year for Hart voting.

I look at Q. Hughes scoring 92 points as a Dman and being the straw that stirs the drink for a division winner and one of the leagues best offences and think "that's a Hart trophy finalist if I've ever seen one."

Or Matthews scoring 69 goals with Selke caliber defence (you can disagree about the Selke nom and that's fair but he's objectively very good defensively either way).

Or Crosby dragging the dead corps of the Penguins almost to the playoffs.

Or Panarin scoring 120 points for the Presidents trophy winner.

Or looking at what Pasta did for a Bruins team that was supposed to decline greatly.

In a normal year these are all amazing shouts for the Hart and yet it's hard to disagree with these 3 noms.

In an ordinary year I would't bat an eye at any of these 8 seasons winning the Hart. (Crosby a bit of a stretch due to point totals but he's the dictionary definition of an MVP this year).

 

[HolyGhost]

So now you have trouble believing Matthews is not a finalist because of what some Maple Leafs fans said 2 years ago? He had an excellent year, but I think the finalist are the best ones. Perhaps when the votes become public, Mathews might be in the top 5. You are aware that Maple Leaf fans have no more or no less information than anyone else.

The debate was not just two years ago and it was the hill the MANY leaf fans were willing to die on. Many, not just one or two, in the debate between AM and CM, that goals were FAR more important that overall pts.

 

[Leaf Fans]

The debate was not just two years ago and it was the hill the MANY leaf fans were willing to die on. Many, not just one or two, in the debate between AM and CM, that goals were FAR more important that overall pts.

Ok, but why did it make you think the 60 goals were everything?

 

[Regal]

Let me expand on this a little bit here.

There have been 2 instances that a player who wins the Rocket Richard Trophy finish the season top 10 in Selke voting....well, 3 now, I guess.

Auston Matthews, Sidney Crosby, Auston Matthews.

If you look at it the other way around, where do the Selke winners finish the season in terms of goal scoring?

Sergei Fedorov won a Selke and ended up 3rd in goals scored once. In 1993/94.
Fedorov ended up with 72% of Hart votes that season.


What Matthews did this year hasn't been done before the closest is that the player leading the league in goals ends top 5 in Selke votes:

Back in 1985/86, Jari Kurri led the league in goals with 68, and ended 5th in Selke voting. He was not in contention for the Hart Trophy because some guy put up 163 assists and 215 points. He was also on the same team as Kurri.




How the voters wrapped themselves into pretzels trying to ignore a feat that has literally never been done before, and the closest instances to that same achievement happened 30 and 40 years ago, I have no clue.

Not even a finalist is just something else entirely.

I think the only pretzel wrapping here is in trying to ignore the value of playmaking and turning bits of trivia into feats. That’s not to say Matthews wasn’t great, and he wouldn’t be a finalist and even a winner in a lot of other years, but the fact that the best goalscorers aren’t usually good defensively doesn’t hold any value beyond what he objectively brought to the ice. It’s not the most unique player award.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I can't believe a 69 GOAL SELKE FINALIST was not a Hart Trophy Finalist (playoffs not included)

Do people think the selke is actually the forward that has the biggest impact on defense? Like I’m glad Matthews stayed out of the penalty box and blocked some shots, but he isn’t even a top 3 defensive player on his own team.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Do people think the selke is actually the forward that has the biggest impact on defense? Like I’m glad Matthews stayed out of the penalty box and blocked some shots, but he isn’t even a top 3 defensive player on his own team.

Sure he is.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I thought he should have won to be honest.

Takes a team near dead last, to near the top of the West.
Gets close to Art Ross despite plating a handful less games, and a massive discrepancy in power play time, compared to the 2 guys ahead of him.

First player in like 30 years to break 100 assists.

Of the 3 finalists, plays by far the best 2 way game.

Yes, you are correct. People seemed to prefer 2014 Art Ross runaway Crosby over the one that became a solid two way force and went back to back. Same thing is happening to McDavid this year, and it’s odd to see it reflected on these boards where the opinion you think would be more nuanced.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Sure he is.

Marner, Kampf, and Jarnkrok all have more than double the penalty kill time as Matthews and are the go to guys in key moments in the game when the team is trying to prevent goals.

 

[Buck Naked]

Sure he is.

Well. He's still 9th on his own team in 5v5 GA/60 among forwards playing over 50 games.

 

[Sky04]

Mcdavid is a distant 3rd

 

[Leaf Fans]

Well. He's still 9th on his own team in 5v5 GA/60 among forwards playing over 50 games.

Ok.

Marner, Kampf, and Jarnkrok all have more than double the penalty kill time as Matthews and are the go to guys in key moments in the game when the team is trying to prevent goals.

Yeah, Matthews doesn't kill penalties a lot.

 

[Leafsfanperson]

Kuch 100 assists, Art Ross
McDavid 100 assist, always the best player in the league
MaK ... didn't lead the league in any tradition category but lots of made up advanced stats
Matthews Richard winner, most goals in 30 years, up for Selke

Mak's nomination is embarrassing. Didn't have the best season on any level and hack dweeb journalists will hand it to his because 'it'z his turn'...

Such a joke of an award.

 

[daver]

Kuch 100 assists, Art Ross
McDavid 100 assist, always the best player in the league
MaK ... didn't lead the league in any tradition category but lots of made up advanced stats
Matthews Richard winner, most goals in 30 years, up for Selke

Mak's nomination is embarrassing. Didn't have the best season on any level and hack dweeb journalists will hand it to his because 'it'z his turn'...

Such a joke of an award.

Kucherov and McDavid - ASSSSSIIIIIITTTTTSSS!!!

Mathews - GOOOOOOOAAAAALLLLLSSSSS!!!!

Mak vs. Kucherov and McDavid - More GOOOOOOOAAAAALLLLLSSSSS!!!!

Mak vs. Matthews - Way more ASSSSSIIIIIITTTTTSSS!!!

 

[Leafsfanperson]

Kucherov and McDavid - ASSSSSIIIIIITTTTTSSS!!!

Mathews - GOOOOOOOAAAAALLLLLSSSSS!!!!

Mak vs. Kucherov and McDavid - More GOOOOOOOAAAAALLLLLSSSSS!!!!

Mak vs. Matthews - Way more ASSSSSIIIIIITTTTTSSS!!!

It's like when you give the worst kid on the hockey team the 'most improved award' because he got some secondary assists.

Oh and second assists is a fake stat that doesn't exist in any other sport on the planet but hockey journalists are hicks.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Kuch 100 assists, Art Ross
McDavid 100 assist, always the best player in the league
MaK ... didn't lead the league in any tradition category but lots of made up advanced stats
Matthews Richard winner, most goals in 30 years, up for Selke

Mak's nomination is embarrassing. Didn't have the best season on any level and hack dweeb journalists will hand it to his because 'it'z his turn'...

Such a joke of an award.

You must have been pissed when Sakic won the award in 01. Wait, you weren't born.

It seriously takes either an idiot or someone with an agenda to argue that MacKinnon was not worthy of a nomination this year.

Even the most biased leafs fans like the guys on overdrive had to admit that there was 4 otherworldy seasons this year and someone had to be left off, and that Matthews' omission is actually not that ridiculous and rather understandable.

 

[pcruz]

You must have been pissed when Sakic won the award in 01. Wait, you weren't born.

It seriously takes either an idiot or someone with an agenda to argue that MacKinnon was not worthy of a nomination this year.

Even the most biased leafs fans like the guys on overdrive had to admit that there was 4 otherworldy seasons this year and someone had to be left off, and that Matthews' omission is actually not that ridiculous and rather understandable.

Mackinnon had a great season, there's no denying it.

He didn't win the Art Ross.
He didn't win the Rocket.
He isn't nominated for Selke.
He didn't break a 30 year old scoring mark,
He didn't break a 30 year old assist mark.

All of those things happened, and Mackinnon was involved in none of them.

What also happened, is something that has literally never happened before, and the closest instance of it, is from 30 and 40 years ago.


People look at the numbers in a pure vacuum and ignore all context.

Colorado was 3rd in the league in power play time this past season and 2nd in power play opportunities.


Tampa Bay was 23rd in power play time, 16th in power play opportunities.

Edmonton was 31st in power play time, and 19th in power play opportunities.

Toronto was 26th in power play time, and 25th in power play opportunities.


Mackinnon led the league in pp time on ice this year, followed by Rantanen. Makar was 8th.

Kucherov was 4th in the league in pp time on ice.

Matthews was 37th in the league in terms of pp time on ice.

McDavid missed a few games, and ended up 51st in pp time on ice.



In terms of Colorado, their top 3 point producers were on the ice together as often as possible:

Mackinnon with 140 points
Rantanen with 104 points
Makar with 90 points

2/3 of the first line and their #1 defenseman.


In terms of Tampa Bay, they had 5 players above 75 points this year, Kucherov played with the other 4 all year long.


Kucherov with 144 points
Point with 90 points
Stamkos with 81 points
Hedman with 76 points
Hagel with 75 points



In terms of Edmonton, 4 players reached the 75 point mark, with McDavid playing with 2 or 3 of them routinely (depending on the usage of Draisaitl)

McDavid with 132 points
Draisaitl with 106 points
Bouchard with 82 points
Hyman with 77 points



In terms of Toronto, 3 players surpassed the 75 point mark. Matthews played with the 2 of them on the power play, and with one of them for half the season.

Matthews with 107 points
Nylander with 98 points
Marner with 85 points


Matthews played the last 30 games of the season with Domi (47 points) and Bertuzzi (43 points).
Not exactly a point-rich environment in Toronto based on the player usage.
The best offensive defenseman in Toronto - Rielly with 58 points.


Of the 4 players who were in consideration for the Hart Trophy, Matthews had the most unique argument, and by miles the least amount of help from the rest of the team or the officials for that matter.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Mackinnon had a great season, there's no denying it.

He didn't win the Art Ross.
He didn't win the Rocket.
He isn't nominated for Selke.
He didn't break a 30 year old scoring mark,
He didn't break a 30 year old assist mark.

All of those things happened, and Mackinnon was involved in none of them.

What also happened, is something that has literally never happened before, and the closest instance of it, is from 30 and 40 years ago.


People look at the numbers in a pure vacuum and ignore all context.

Colorado was 3rd in the league in power play time this past season and 2nd in power play opportunities.


Tampa Bay was 23rd in power play time, 16th in power play opportunities.

Edmonton was 31st in power play time, and 19th in power play opportunities.

Toronto was 26th in power play time, and 25th in power play opportunities.


Mackinnon led the league in pp time on ice this year, followed by Rantanen. Makar was 8th.

Kucherov was 4th in the league in pp time on ice.

Matthews was 37th in the league in terms of pp time on ice.

McDavid missed a few games, and ended up 51st in pp time on ice.



In terms of Colorado, their top 3 point producers were on the ice together as often as possible:

Mackinnon with 140 points
Rantanen with 104 points
Makar with 90 points

2/3 of the first line and their #1 defenseman.


In terms of Tampa Bay, they had 5 players above 75 points this year, Kucherov played with the other 4 all year long.


Kucherov with 144 points
Point with 90 points
Stamkos with 81 points
Hedman with 76 points
Hagel with 75 points



In terms of Edmonton, 4 players reached the 75 point mark, with McDavid playing with 2 or 3 of them routinely (depending on the usage of Draisaitl)

McDavid with 132 points
Draisaitl with 106 points
Bouchard with 82 points
Hyman with 77 points



In terms of Toronto, 3 players surpassed the 75 point mark. Matthews played with the 2 of them on the power play, and with one of them for half the season.

Matthews with 107 points
Nylander with 98 points
Marner with 85 points


Matthews played the last 30 games of the season with Domi (47 points) and Bertuzzi (43 points).
Not exactly a point-rich environment in Toronto based on the player usage.
The best offensive defenseman in Toronto - Rielly with 58 points.


Of the 4 players who were in consideration for the Hart Trophy, Matthews had the most unique argument, and by miles the least amount of help from the rest of the team or the officials for that matter.

And still finished 30 points less than mack and the leafs only finished 10th in the league. Barely better than Nashville lol.

The point gap between Mack and Matthews is higher than Matthews and Marner lol.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Mackinnon had a great season, there's no denying it.

He didn't win the Art Ross.
He didn't win the Rocket.
He isn't nominated for Selke.
He didn't break a 30 year old scoring mark,
He didn't break a 30 year old assist mark.

All of those things happened, and Mackinnon was involved in none of them.

What also happened, is something that has literally never happened before, and the closest instance of it, is from 30 and 40 years ago.


People look at the numbers in a pure vacuum and ignore all context.

Colorado was 3rd in the league in power play time this past season and 2nd in power play opportunities.


Tampa Bay was 23rd in power play time, 16th in power play opportunities.

Edmonton was 31st in power play time, and 19th in power play opportunities.

Toronto was 26th in power play time, and 25th in power play opportunities.


Mackinnon led the league in pp time on ice this year, followed by Rantanen. Makar was 8th.

Kucherov was 4th in the league in pp time on ice.

Matthews was 37th in the league in terms of pp time on ice.

McDavid missed a few games, and ended up 51st in pp time on ice.



In terms of Colorado, their top 3 point producers were on the ice together as often as possible:

Mackinnon with 140 points
Rantanen with 104 points
Makar with 90 points

2/3 of the first line and their #1 defenseman.


In terms of Tampa Bay, they had 5 players above 75 points this year, Kucherov played with the other 4 all year long.


Kucherov with 144 points
Point with 90 points
Stamkos with 81 points
Hedman with 76 points
Hagel with 75 points



In terms of Edmonton, 4 players reached the 75 point mark, with McDavid playing with 2 or 3 of them routinely (depending on the usage of Draisaitl)

McDavid with 132 points
Draisaitl with 106 points
Bouchard with 82 points
Hyman with 77 points



In terms of Toronto, 3 players surpassed the 75 point mark. Matthews played with the 2 of them on the power play, and with one of them for half the season.

Matthews with 107 points
Nylander with 98 points
Marner with 85 points


Matthews played the last 30 games of the season with Domi (47 points) and Bertuzzi (43 points).
Not exactly a point-rich environment in Toronto based on the player usage.
The best offensive defenseman in Toronto - Rielly with 58 points.


Of the 4 players who were in consideration for the Hart Trophy, Matthews had the most unique argument, and by miles the least amount of help from the rest of the team or the officials for that matter.

Enjoy Mack's hart trophy buddy.

 

[pcruz]

Enjoy Mack's hart trophy buddy.

I will.

I think he's a phenomenal player and has been severely underrated for years.


Thank you for the well wishes.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Thats basically a list of the greatest players of all time. The crazy thing is he's only 28 and he has a cup on his resume too. Win or lose this, he is really having an all-time level prime these last 7 years.

He's overshadowed by McDavid but mackinnon has truly been remarkable since 2017-18. He would he a first ballot HOFer if he retired tomorrow.

Agreed. The weakest player on that list (aside from MacKinnon, who's still only 28) is probably Bryan Trottier. He was ranked 31st all-time on the History of Hockey's Top 100 list (full disclosure - I was a participant). This doesn't mean that MacKinnon will definitely end up there - but he's had a really good start.

 

[Schennanigans]

Maybe it needs to start being more than 3.

 

[pcruz]

Maybe it needs to start being more than 3.

It's only 1.

All the votes were in within a day after the end of the season.

The player awards have all been determined by now, except the Conn Smythe.

What we get is a preview of the players who won the various awards, and then the player who ended 2nd and 3rd.