YZERMAN: "We’re building a nucleus of young prospects that are going to be part of this team."

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Euro Twins

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Mar 19, 2016
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He is heavily overrated. His team has been back to back finals, not just him. What did he do in Calgary?

He got 104 points in Calgary. He was also an absolute playoff beast in the Panthers first cup run when they lost in the finals. Hands down the most clutch player in the entire playoffs.

Overrated? No. He does get a lot of praise, and all of it justified imo. Can you explain how you believe he's overrated?

People throw that term around a lot out of jealousy
 

Oddbob

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Jan 21, 2016
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He got 104 points in Calgary. He was also an absolute playoff beast in the Panthers first cup run when they lost in the finals. Hands down the most clutch player in the entire playoffs.

Overrated? No. He does get a lot of praise, and all of it justified imo. Can you explain how you believe he's overrated?

People throw that term around a lot out of jealousy

People have been mentioning him in basically his while career as being some guarantee of success and he simply isn't so great that, that is the case.
 

ricky0034

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Jun 8, 2010
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People have been mentioning him in basically his while career as being some guarantee of success and he simply isn't so great that, that is the case.
he was mostly viewed as a Playoff choker when he was in Calgary

which goes to show how silly this reputational stuff can be since he only played like 20 total Playoff games there and even now after the last couple years we're talking about like 70 total games between Calgary and Florida
 

Gniwder

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Oct 12, 2009
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he was mostly viewed as a Playoff choker when he was in Calgary

which goes to show how silly this reputational stuff can be since he only played like 20 total Playoff games there and even now after the last couple years we're talking about like 70 total games between Calgary and Florida
10 points in 12 games his last season there, I wish the Red Wings would choke more often. I suppose they'd have to get into the playoffs first, lol.

And what exactly have the Flames done since the trade?

BTW, he played 27 playoff games in Calgary with 15 points, but complaining about lack of playoff production from a kid under 25 (back then) is just silly.

Also are you saying 71 games is low sample size? A lot of players go their entire careers without that many playoff games. Larkin has 1 point in 5 games.
 

ricky0034

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Jun 8, 2010
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10 points in 12 games his last season there, I wish the Red Wings would choke more often. I suppose they'd have to get into the playoffs first, lol.

And what exactly have the Flames done since the trade?

BTW, he played 27 playoff games in Calgary with 15 points, but complaining about lack of playoff production from a kid under 25 (back then) is just silly.

and yet it was probably the majority opinion both on hfboards as a whole and on this very forum that he was a choker as recently as a couple years ago, it's an opinion I saw expressed loads of times

Also are you saying 71 games is low sample size?

yes, that isn't even as many games as a single regular season


A lot of players go their entire careers without that many playoff games.

now you're getting it, analysis of whether players are "chokers" or "clutch" usually comes down to tiny handfuls of games and is often probably as much luck as anything else
 

Euro Twins

Healthy Scratch
Mar 19, 2016
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People have been mentioning him in basically his while career as being some guarantee of success and he simply isn't so great that, that is the case.

He's 26, cup champ, b2b finals

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to prove.

Before he got to Florida they weren't winning anything either
 

Gniwder

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Oct 12, 2009
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Bellingham, WA
and yet it was probably the majority opinion both on hfboards as a whole and on this very forum that he was a choker as recently as a couple years ago, it's an opinion I saw expressed loads of times
The majority of people here thought Zadina was gonna be good. HFBoards will HFBoard, lol. Always need a spacegoat.

yes, that isn't even as many games as a single regular season
But 71 is a substantial sample size for playoffs. Datsyuk had 157 career playoff games. Matt is almost halfway there.

now you're getting it, analysis of whether players are "chokers" or "clutch" usually comes down to tiny handfuls of games and is often probably as much luck as anything else
Luck? Yeah some of it is. But with playoffs the seeding and matchup matters. Line matchups as well, some coaches suck at it. And linemates.... there's a reason why he's doing much better in Florida.
 

Rzombo4 prez

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May 17, 2012
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It's obviously not a pure binary. That's just an easy way to talk about it. To be a "winner" you have to produce a lot. You can't just focus on playing defense and working hard. That's not how that works. Similarly, you can never produce if you don't have the puck. If all you can do is skate, dangle, shoot and pass, your team will never have the puck. Crosby was the best player of the last generation and he's the epitome of "the world's most skilled grinder."

But I do think that we can talk about priorities and see that the Wings are clearly not setting production as their highest priority (or less dominantly so than most teams). In the Kasper draft, Matt Savoie was taken with the next pick. He may be less likely to be a center, and honestly his development has been just okay since, but at the time of the draft, he was the higher skill, more productive option. We took Kasper. You can make similar arguments with Danielson and Benson. You can make similar arguments with MBN and Eiserman (or Hage or whoever). And we're seeing how that can play out, both MBN and Danielson have been showing a higher skill tier than at the time of their draft, and thus they look to be well on their way to fulfilling the promise of a "winner" and a "producer." Kasper, it's harder to say, but we seem pretty likely to end up with at least a decent third liner.

Essentially, it's much less that the players themselves are binary as much as our drafting strategy is (which also isn't a pure binary of course). In general if two guys seem to have a similar expected value, we're taking the guy whom is having more of that value come from his defense and character.

To me, Edvinsson is a lottery pick quality player- does it all and has the qualities to be an elite, productive winner. We've slow burned him and that's hurt his perception, even in hind sight, but I don't think the Red Wings compromised on anything with him. I also think that the drafting philosophy around D and F are too different for this to be too useful for this discussion.

I think Yzerman has shown a clear way for him to acquire high skill guys. He's great at collecting productive wingers in trade and free agency. Kane and Debrincat are at the top of the list, but he's also brought in Perron, Fabbri, and Tarasenko. I'm not sure if that's the way that he conceives of this whole deal, but it wouldn't be surprising to me if he had a game plan: "draft big, two way D first. Then draft your two-way character centers. Draft a goalie every year. If I end up without enough productive wingers, I can just get them through trade/FA."
I think you are probably reading too much into the Danielson and Kasper picks and trying to extrapolate an overarching draft strategy from them. Both were clearly drafted where they were based upon the position they play and their likelihood of being able to play that position in NA pro hockey. In each of their draft years, if you put together a list of available players likely to play center at the pro level and then ranked the group based upon expected future productivity, those two would be at the top of each list. The unique requirements of the position will always favor players with a strong defensive understanding of the game without the puck, mobility, size and competitiveness (a willingness to get dirty physically and contest the play)....your winner traits. Without those traits, it is really f***ing hard to play the position well. Those valued traits are a function of the position targeted more than anything. The reason you pass on Benson and Savoie in favor of those two is because you value walking away with an actual center more than you value the most statistically productive player (again this really an argument of "skill" vs. character/competitiveness/yadda. If you don't like the strategy, you need to make other plans for acquiring center depth.

Personally I think there is a point where you need to take the likely winger over the most likely center, Benson and Savoie are not the quality of prospect that forces you to make that call. My money says that passing on those two will not set the organization back at all.

If you look at the rest of the recent draft classes, it is a combination of just about everything. Do you have a Dylan James (who supports your argument) and MBN? Sure, but you also have ASP, NDN and Lombardi. Also, not many fit squarely in either the "winner" or "productive" bucket. Most are some shade of grey.

Where you probably have the best argument is at the extremes. I agree that it is unlikely that we will draft an Eiserman or Kaliyev or someone else cut from that cloth.
 
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