Yzerman is Telling You His Philosophy if You Listen

[Frk It]

I think he's a better player not just based on points this season, but because it's his rookie season and he has shown he is much better offensively than Seider. In year 4, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets 80-90 points. Again, this is just his rookie year and he's putting up these numbers .

That's like saying you would take Ghost over Pietrangelo.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Forsling wasn't a full-time NHLer until his d+5.
And he was a full-time AHLer in his d+6, putting up 5 goals and 17 points.

Jake Walman had 13 points in his d+5 in the AHL.
Nick Jensen had 9 points in his d+5 in the AHL.

Whatever the odds are, these things happen. And we've already seen Johansson perform at a very good level. Caveating everything with "on a contender" is kind of meaningless to me, because I actually think it's EASIER to insert guys into roles on a contender. Like, do you think Johansson would look worse next to Heiskanen or better? Would Kasper struggle more surrounded by McDavid than by Kane? Yeah, I wouldn't expect Wallinder or Johansson to form the backbone of a contending d-core, but as complimentary guys? I can see it.

Looks the recent cup winners. Do you see an AJ or Wallinder type player on the top pairing? I sure as hell don’t

Wallinder is in his D+5 with O NHL games played, that’s a hell of a lot worse than Forsling who had like 70+ NHL games at that point

 

[DanielMarois]

That's like saying you would take Ghost over Pietrangelo.

Or like saying you would take Ekholm over Quinn Hughes if your be all and end all is big and two-way play.

 

[DanielMarois]

Feels like you're trolling, but fact is if Hutson wasn't producing offensively he wouldn't be in the NHL. Scoring ~10 more points than Seider did as a rookie is almost nothing considering how much less valuable he is in all other areas. It's not much different than the people who argued in favor of Zegras during that rookie season. The offensive advantage simply isn't big enough to warrant ignoring all the weaknesses, and time has shown that to be true. Hutson might become an 80-90 point d-man. But when ALL other outcomes than the absolute max lands him as a less valuable player it's a big gamble to put your money on.

This is what people were saying about Quinn Hughes in his rookie campaign. Now he's one of the most valuable dmen. And while not great defensively now, Hutson is not this horrible defensive player.

 

[SirloinUB]

Looks the recent cup winners. Do you see an AJ or Wallinder type player on the top pairing? I sure as hell don’t

Wallinder is in his D+5 with O NHL games played, that’s a hell of a lot worse than Forsling who had like 70+ NHL games at that point

I don’t see top pairing but I can definitely see these guys as late bloomers, especially AlJo. They’re both still showing potential. Shit Johansson is showing flashes as a second pair guy right now.

Nick Jensen’s name has been thrown around, who is actually a good comp for AlJo, didn’t establish himself as a playoff calibre top 4 Dman until he was 30.

 

[SirloinUB]

Or like saying you would take Ekholm over Quinn Hughes if your be all and end all is big and two-way play.

A 34 year old top pairing D with one year remaining on his contract is a terrible trade value comparison for Seider, who is just entering his prime and locked up for 6 more years at a good value.

As for on ice impact? Acquiring Ekholm was a game changer for the Edmonton Oilers as a Stanley Cup contender. That is an extremely flattering comparison. He’s spent his 26-34 year old seasons playing around 23 minutes a night for Stanley Cup contenders.

Also, Hutson isn’t at Quinn Hughes level. He might get there, in which case kudos to you for believing in him, but he doesn’t have the same value on ice or in a trade.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

I bet Toronto wants that first rounder back they gave for SCOTT LAUGHTON!!!!

 

[Frk It]

This is what people were saying about Quinn Hughes in his rookie campaign. Now he's one of the most valuable dmen. And while not great defensively now, Hutson is not this horrible defensive player.

They are the same size and Hughes was drafted significantly higher for a reason.

Or like saying you would take Ekholm over Quinn Hughes if your be all and end all is big and two-way play.

Except Seider is the clearly superior player.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I bet Toronto wants that first rounder back they gave for SCOTT LAUGHTON!!!!

Why are you screaming? I didn’t see like a single Wings poster who wanted Laughton?

 

[nbwingsfan]

I bet Toronto wants that first rounder back they gave for SCOTT LAUGHTON!!!!

Why are you screaming

I don’t see top pairing but I can definitely see these guys as late bloomers, especially AlJo. They’re both still showing potential. Shit Johansson is showing flashes as a second pair guy right now.

Nick Jensen’s name has been thrown around, who is actually a good comp for AlJo, didn’t establish himself as a playoff calibre top 4 Dman until he was 30.

sure, but for every Jensen, there’s 10x more Gustav Lindstrom’s who don’t become quality top 4 guys.

I’d love for it to happen, but the odds aren’t in either of their favours

 

[Winger98]

Why are you screaming? I didn’t see like a single Wings poster who wanted Laughton?

I'm just happy we're less likely to keep losing to Philly now.

 

[DanielMarois]

A 34 year old top pairing D with one year remaining on his contract is a terrible trade value comparison for Seider, who is just entering his prime and locked up for 6 more years at a good value.

As for on ice impact? Acquiring Ekholm was a game changer for the Edmonton Oilers as a Stanley Cup contender. That is an extremely flattering comparison. He’s spent his 26-34 year old seasons playing around 23 minutes a night for Stanley Cup contenders.

Also, Hutson isn’t at Quinn Hughes level. He might get there, in which case kudos to you for believing in him, but he doesn’t have the same value on ice or in a trade.

I meant prime Ekholm vs prime Hughes. And I am not saying Hutson will definitely become a Hughes, just that all the criticisms ( small, not elite defensively, etc) were levied at Hughes too in his rookie year. And the Ekholm comparing wasn't a knock on Seider, both are terrific defensemen, but 80-90 pt dmen who control the play are another level.

 

[19 for president]

I meant prime Ekholm vs prime Hughes. And I am not saying Hutson will definitely become a Hughes, just that all the criticisms ( small, not elite defensively, etc) were levied at Hughes too in his rookie year. And the Ekholm comparing wasn't a knock on Seider, both are terrific defensemen, but 80-90 pt dmen who control the play are another level.

I get that to some extent but #1 small speedy ones don't win a lot of cups either historically.

Since the wings last cup #1s: Chara, Keith, Doughty, Letang, Carlson, Pietrangelo, Hedman, Makar, Ekblad/ Forsling. None of them are below 6'0

0 Cup in 16 years. If we want to go a bit bigger you can add Makar, Letang and Forsling that takes you to 5 in 16.

I will take the big two way 50-60 point guy over the 80-90 pt guy that plays passable but not great D, because playoff hockey favors guys that can stand up to the physical play and make an impact in tight checking games where the whistles are put away. (My exception is Makar, who I do think is the best Dman in the NHL)

They are also a lot more affordable in the cap world. I'd take Seider/Ed at maybe a combined 17 mil than the like 12-13 high scoring guy like Hutson is likely to get on his 1st contract and a 3/5 mil dman.

 

[DanielMarois]

I get that to some extent but #1 small speedy ones don't win a lot of cups either historically.

Since the wings last cup #1s: Chara, Keith, Doughty, Letang, Carlson, Pietrangelo, Hedman, Makar, Ekblad/ Forsling. None of them are below 6'0

0 Cup in 16 years. If we want to go a bit bigger you can add Makar, Letang and Forsling that takes you to 5 in 16.

I will take the big two way 50-60 point guy over the 80-90 pt guy that plays passable but not great D, because playoff hockey favors guys that can stand up to the physical play and make an impact in tight checking games where the whistles are put away. (My exception is Makar, who I do think is the best Dman in the NHL)

They are also a lot more affordable in the cap world. I'd take Seider/Ed at maybe a combined 17 mil than the like 12-13 high scoring guy like Hutson is likely to get on his 1st contract and a 3/5 mil dman.

Good arguments, but I am not sure we can call Seider a 50-60 pt dman yet, he had exactly 50 points once , four years ago. In any case , just an opinion and I can definitely be completely wrong.

 

[Winger98]

Seider definitely has things he needs to work on. He chases at times. He needs to add a bit of bulk to make the most of his willingness to play physical. I think he over thinks things and gets lost in the defensive zone at times.

But he's also been tasked with the most god awful assignments in the NHL and coached by Lalonde for 2.5 of the last 3 years. I want to see what a lot of these guys look like with a full training camp under McLellan.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Why are you screaming? I didn’t see like a single Wings poster who wanted Laughton?

Since you quoted me twice on the same message I'll respond... it's not about wanting Scott Laughton it's about what the deadline price was for a fringe player. Yet a lot of you were CRYING about the lack of activity. Look at what the price was for SCOTT LAUGHTON! Who sucks.....

 

[SirKillalot]

I don’t want to see Yzerman sign anymore aging or mediocre vets. Instead, I think Yzerman should focus on three things right now:

1) bringing up the youth to get experience and get as high a draft pick as possible. Then draft the highest offensive potential forward available.

2) trade for Bowen Byram. I’d definitely be willing to part with Danielson and/or MBN here.

3) try to sign Marner.

1. Yes.
2. Hesitant, Byram still haven't played a full season and having a history of injuries. I like him, but not sure I'd take the risk.
3. Marner folds under pressure, maybe he learned and develops that mental aspect, but for now I'm not sold on him. Though I'm not ruling him out and if we can't get that driving 2C, a play driving winger could be a solution.

 

[Run the Jewels]

1. Yes.
2. Hesitant, Byram still haven't played a full season and having a history of injuries. I like him, but not sure I'd take the risk.
3. Marner folds under pressure, maybe he learned and develops that mental aspect, but for now I'm not sold on him. Though I'm not ruling him out and if we can't get that driving 2C, a play driving winger could be a solution.

Leaf fans used to s**t all over Larry Murphy, but he worked out quite nicely in Detroit. Give Marner Detroit's d-core and put him on a line with Kasper and Ray and watch him do work.

 

[SirKillalot]

Give Marner Detroit's d-core and put him on a line with Kasper and Ray and watch him do work.

I'm not sold on it, but also not against it. Its a big risk for me, usually I do like taking the risk. But also if it doesn't work out its going to be a lot of Detroit fans s**t on Marner and Yzerman for the signing as its going to be an expensive one.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I'm not sold on it, but also not against it. Its a big risk for me, usually I do like taking the risk. But also if it doesn't work out its going to be a lot of Detroit fans s**t on Marner and Yzerman for the signing as its going to be an expensive one.

We aren't drafting a Marner caliber player. We only got one - albeit well past his prime - in Kane but only after coming back from a surgery that had a zero success rate. Also because he's best buds with DeBrincat. If you get a shot at a 100 point caliber player, you don't look that particular gift horse in the mouth. We've got pretty everything else other than goalie, so hopefully our NA scouts picked at least one real good one between Cossa and Augustine.

 

[19 for president]

We aren't drafting a Marner caliber player. We only got one - albeit well past his prime - in Kane but only after coming back from a surgery that had a zero success rate. Also because he's best buds with DeBrincat. If you get a shot at a 100 point caliber player, you don't look that particular gift horse in the mouth. We've got pretty everything else other than goalie, so hopefully our NA scouts picked at least one real good one between Cossa and Augustine.

I'm a bit meh on Marner but also as you noted 100 point guys don't come available too often and I think if we could pair him with guys like MBN/ Kasper it'd help open up space for him. Datsyuk wa another guy with moves that was a playoff sieve until he wasn't. I think taking Marner out of that Toronto spotlight will help him a lot. Detroits whole makeup will be a lot different too. This is going to be a two way team lead from the back end.

 

[19 for president]

Good arguments, but I am not sure we can call Seider a 50-60 pt dman yet, he had exactly 50 points once , four years ago. In any case , just an opinion and I can definitely be completely wrong.

Seider definitely has some work to do as well. I really think Lalonde did a number on him, and we really need to get him a partner that lets him roam a bit. I think his ultimate form will be in a less physically agressive Vladdy. He wants to be part of the unit and jump into rushes but being with Chia prevents that. He's never going to be a Lids like PP QB passer.

He also needs to work on his net front play. I'm hoping Todd and team can work with him for a full camp and help with some of the mechanic stuff that Lalonde clearly wasn't great at. He needs to both be more physical and better with his stick. Ed could work on this too.

With that said I still probably take him over Hutson because I have major questions about a 5'8 guy being able to be that #1 defensively. He's going to need to develop a Lids level stick at his size.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Since you quoted me twice on the same message I'll respond... it's not about wanting Scott Laughton it's about what the deadline price was for a fringe player. Yet a lot of you were CRYING about the lack of activity. Look at what the price was for SCOTT LAUGHTON! Who sucks.....

And Mark Jankowski who has 6G in 8games was had for a 4th….

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

And Mark Jankowski who has 6G in 8games was had for a 4th….

What a franchise savior MARK JANKOWSKI is...

 

[nbwingsfan]

What a franchise savior MARK JANKOWSKI is...

And you expect a random 4th round pick to ever help us in a single NHL game… ever?