Your Rebuild Opinion? Next Move Coming?

[SirloinUB]

“You want this team to improve? Too bad! I won’t let it!”

Gaslighting nonsense.

The team has improved 5 of 6 years.

 

[jkutswings]

Gaslighting nonsense.

The team has improved 5 of 6 years.

And there was no good reason to not improve it last season. Or to improve it this summer.

 

[SirloinUB]

And there was no good reason to not improve it last season. Or to improve it this summer.

I too would like to see improvement but my point is progress is rarely linear. Last off season wasn't great (to be expected in my personal opinion the team was capped out). The team did a little worse as a result but also integrated 2 top 10 draft picks to the roster in substantial roles. The team also upgraded the coach. The last year wasn't perfect but there was some good mixed in.

I think the panic that you and many others carry is counterproductive and loses perspective to the substantial progress already delivered. That said, I am happy that Larkin asked for more support, the goal is to improve.

If the team slides back in the standings next year that would start to become a problem as we'd now be talking about 2 consecutive seasons of back sliding.. but a one year speed bump isn't a big deal and frankly probably should have been expected at some point in the last 6 seasons. In reality there are a ton of factors that go into team building and boiling it down to "get aggressive" overlooks the complexities of team building.

I also believe that teams getting overly aggressive coming out of a rebuild is a classic mistake. Remember when the Senators traded multiple picks including a top 10 pick for Debrincat and 1 year later they traded him to Detroit for 24th overall (or whatever it was) and scraps. Ya, that aggression really worked out for Ottawa eh..? Or how about the time the Leafs wanted to get aggressive and add Kessel? When the dust finally settled that cost them a 2nd overall pick+. Woof.

 

[better Red than Dead]

I completely disagree. This season is the only season the team hasn't improved under Yzerman's tenure and half the forum is ready to sac him. Seems pretty clear that linear progress, 100% of the time, is the only acceptable outcome to many. 1 small setback has been unacceptable to the (vocal) majority around here.

In reality, rebuilding never progresses 100% linearly - Setbacks are inevitable.

Most people aren’t ready to sac him, but his roster moves have been uninspiring , not decent, awful, the only redeeming quality he has brought has been his drafting record, he has built up a good prospect list. He’s in his 6th year and they’re at risk of becoming irrelevant in “Hockeytown” as every other pro team in Detroit have gone through their rebuild and are now title contenders. I even teams like Montreal and Ottawa, teams that were at the same point of their rebuild big efforts have leaped ahead of us. There is only so much “patience “ we can stand.

 

[schuelma24]

Most people aren’t ready to sac him, but his roster moves have been uninspiring , not decent, awful, the only redeeming quality he has brought has been his drafting record, he has built up a good prospect list. He’s in his 6th year and they’re at risk of becoming irrelevant in “Hockeytown” as every other pro team in Detroit have gone through their rebuild and are now title contenders. I even teams like Montreal and Ottawa, teams that were at the same point of their rebuild big efforts have leaped ahead of us. There is only so much “patience “ we can stand.

I'm fine using Montreal as a bludgeon against Yzerman, but Ottawa? Come on - they started their rebuild well before the Wings.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

Anderson and CGY are far apart supposedly on contract? Is it time to make them a pitch? I wonder what the cost and what deal he’s looking for? Did he and Ed play together at all at worlds?

 

[better Red than Dead]

I'm fine using Montreal as a bludgeon against Yzerman, but Ottawa? Come on - they started their rebuild well before the Wings.

Prior to this year the last time Ottawa made the playoffs was 2017, the last time the Wings made the playoffs was 2016, I’d say it was an apt comparison

 

[13to40]

And there was no good reason to not improve it last season. Or to improve it this summer.

What’s your definition of improvement?

Roster improved from the end of the season prior to this one.

Young players all progressed further in their development which is the most important steps on this team being relevant again.

So to me there has been constant improvement to this team over the last 6/6 years!

Would it be nice to land a big fish this offseason? In all honesty I wouldn’t be upset. Would be exciting for a few days until you realize that all the big fish free agents this off season will be asking for the moon and more. I think signing 80% of them to the deals they are projected to get will be as bad as the Justin Abdelkader contract in a few years. To some this may be an “improvement”, long term I think it’s problematic.

If Yzerman is to make any big moves this offseason, I would hope it’s for a goaltender.

Everyone who watched the conclusion of the playoffs just saw how crucial an adequate goalie is. Sure we have 2 coming up, but there needs to be a stop gap while the 2 young goalie prospects we have take their next steps in hopefully becoming full time pros.

Signing Ekblad or Marner won’t help with this. Getting a new shiny tool or toy is always nice, but eventually you get tired of it or realize that you spent too much or just don’t need it, but you really wanted it. That’s what these two players would be to this team. One guy is either constantly injured or suspended from PEDs and the other is even softer than glass. Forget about the absurd contracts they will demand. This fanbase will turn on those two guys well before their contracts come due.

 

[jkutswings]

I think the panic that you and many others carry is counterproductive and loses perspective to the substantial progress already delivered.

I think you are confusing criticism with panic.

Kasper and Edvinsson are great picks and are both ahead of schedule. Mo and Raymond are both better than their draft slots should provide. Johansson was a pleasant surprise this season. I have no issue with acknowledging good decisions.

But there is a LIST of players that should have never joined this team to begin with. That's not panic; that's calling a spade a spade and saying that in addition to several good moves, Yzerman has made several dumb moves. Had he NOT made some of those dumb moves, last season would have likely resulted in a Wild Card berth, and I'd call it an overall success and clear continuation of the trend of progress.

So it's not nervously drumming my fingers over whether Marner comes here or counting the second until a blockbuster trade comes along. It's wanting the idiocy of things like signing Holl and trading for Mrazek to stop, and the common sense to start (adding a depth defenseman good on the PK, or dealing some draft capital for a second line scoring forward). Basic moves that other teams make without emptying the cupboard or rushing anything.

This franchise has a front office with tremendous success in the first round of the draft...and laughable moves in free agency. Find something solid yet unspectacular in the middle for this weakness, and progress can continue.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Gaslighting nonsense.

The team has improved 5 of 6 years.

Agreed, relying heavily on bargain bin free agents was bound to be a bumpy ride. As the roster gets filled with draftees, the team should be able to focus on 1-3 high end free agents.

I created a poll earlier and this forum agreed overwhelmingly (75%) that our biggest need was a top 4 Dman. I want us to be aggressive in going after Gavrikov as he perfectly fills that need. I'd even be willing to sign him to a Chychrun type deal, which has upset some people here.

But if we overwhelmingly agree on our biggest team need, I'd much rather spend big to fill that need with the best option available rather than go with the poo poo platter which is going to be uninspiring and cause further complaining when the patchwork approach doesn't adequately address the need.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I completely disagree. This season is the only season the team hasn't improved under Yzerman's tenure and half the forum is ready to sac him. Seems pretty clear that linear progress, 100% of the time, is the only acceptable outcome to many. 1 small setback has been unacceptable to the (vocal) majority around here.

In reality, rebuilding never progresses 100% linearly - Setbacks are inevitable.

Another way to look at it is the team was in position to compete for a playoff spot in February three years in a row and faltered badly down the stretch each time. Yzerman's stated goal was to make the team 'competitive' for a playoff spot without mortgaging the future. It has been competitive, it has simply failed. He's continued to tinker while his prospects develop. It's clear he's been unhappy with goaltending and so he's moved on from the previous coach. Gave him plenty of time and it's almost certainly not all his fault, but it was time to make a change.

Like it or not, the core is going to come from the draft and that takes time. Barkov, Ekblad, Draisaitl and McDavid were all top 3 draft picks roughly one decade ago. Detroit last got a top 3 draft pick 35 years ago. The Red Wings are close to having their core in place, but if it took Edmonton and Florida a decade, it's tough to see a team like Detroit with no lottery luck having much of a cheat code other than a proven GM in Yzerman.

This was a total rebuild with no lottery luck, and as such it requires some patience. With that being said, I do think we are now in a position to understand our biggest needs which have gone unfulfilled via drafting and developing, which are:

1. Top 4 Dman
2. Top line LW
3. #1 goalie

Gavrikov addresses one, Kyle Connor may address the second, then you have to find a #1 goalie. Goalie is tough, many of the top guys just signed new deals and in some of those cases I wouldn't want a goalie with lots of term at $8m+ per season. Bobrovsky just had a nice run, but I struggle to view goalie as a position where you want to commit lots of term and AAV. There are cases like Bob and Vasy, but they are the exception.

The Winged Wheel guys mentioned acquiring Gibson, and while I am skeptical he'd be capable of 60ish starts per season, he has 2 years at $6.4m per which is expensive but not outrageous. The problem is he's only had 3 seasons in his career where he's played at or near 60 games. He can't be relied on as a nailed on #1 starter.

67.9% of his starts this past season qualified as quality starts, so you have to wonder how much his poor performances over the recent years has been due to a Ducks team that has struggled until very recently? His best years by save percentage were when he was 21-25, but his quality starts back then were pretty poor, typically below 60%.

I don't know that Gibson is the answer, but my guess is he's probably acquirable if the Ducks are ready to move on to Dostal, who make be ready to take on a larger role. That would give Cossa and Augustine more time to develop, which I know will upset some people, but goaltending has been a massive issue for this franchise the past three seasons as they have relinquished playoff position each time.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I'm fine using Montreal as a bludgeon against Yzerman, but Ottawa? Come on - they started their rebuild well before the Wings.

They started their rebuild in 2018.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

They started their rebuild in 2018.

And got a 3rd overall pick that year, a 1st overall in 2022, and 5th overall in 2023 and again in 2024.

I wonder what it feels like to regularly get high picks instead of falling back year after year?

 

[jkutswings]

(deleted)

 

[jkutswings]

I wonder what it feels like to regularly get high picks instead of falling back year after year?

 

[deca guard]

And got a 3rd overall pick that year, a 1st overall in 2022, and 5th overall in 2023 and again in 2024.

I wonder what it feels like to regularly get high picks instead of falling back year after year?

bettmans back room lotto game

 

[datsyukfan]

Just have a feeling yzerman is essentially going to do nothing other than overpay some plugs and bring in a journeyman 3rd goalie

 

[The Zermanator]

And there was no good reason to not improve it last season. Or to improve it this summer.

The team did improve though. Raymond proved he can be a bona fide PPG offensive star. Edvinsson proved he can anchor/carry a pairing. Kasper showed he has another gear and strong potential as a top 6 contributor at either C or W. Johansson proved he can be a dependable/competent dman at the NHL level. Those are all important outcomes for the success of the rebuild, and they were all still question marks at the end of last season.

Purely looking at standings is just another form of stat-watching without context. The proper context is that the product of the rebuild is starting to work its way on to the team, taking a bigger and bigger role, and making a larger impact. We may not have improved in the standings (for literally the first time in Yzerman's tenure), but we remained in the same position on the playoff bubble with a balance consisting of more contribution from the youth and less reliance on the mediocre placeholder vets. That trend will continue at an even greater pace over the next few seasons as those vets are not only outgrown, but outright relaced by the young talent in the organization.

The amount of pessimism around here is totally unwarranted considering that the half-baked rebuild is already on the cusp of the playoffs. It's pretty clear where things are trending when the mediocre vets are fully replaced by the young talent in the org, and that's not even considering whatever FA signings or trades could be made to improve the team too. People just need to be patient, there's a very exciting team shaping up.

 

[datsyukfan]

The team did improve though. Raymond proved he can be a bona fide PPG offensive star. Edvinsson proved he can anchor/carry a pairing. Kasper showed he has another gear and strong potential as a top 6 contributor at either C or W. Johansson proved he can be a dependable/competent dman at the NHL level. Those are all important outcomes for the success of the rebuild, and they were all still question marks at the end of last season.

Purely looking at standings is just another form of stat-watching without context. The proper context is that the product of the rebuild is starting to work its way on to the team, taking a bigger and bigger role, and making a larger impact. We may not have improved in the standings (for literally the first time in Yzerman's tenure), but we remained in the same position on the playoff bubble with a balance consisting of more contribution from the youth and less reliance on the mediocre placeholder vets. That trend will continue at an even greater pace over the next few seasons as those vets are not only outgrown, but outright relaced by the young talent in the organization.

The amount of pessimism around here is totally unwarranted considering that the half-baked rebuild is already on the cusp of the playoffs. It's pretty clear where things are trending when the mediocre vets are fully replaced by the young talent in the org, and that's not even considering whatever FA signings or trades could be made to improve the team too. People just need to be patient, there's a very exciting team shaping up.

Ya it’s pretty hard to tell people to be patient when it’s been nearly a decade since this team has even made the playoffs. The prospects/kids are good, but it still has no superstar.

Yzerman has also not shown he can make a big trade or sign elite FA’s. I think you are a little too confident, as to me we are just stuck in the middle being a bubble team

 

[jkutswings]

The amount of pessimism around here is totally unwarranted considering that the half-baked rebuild is already on the cusp of the playoffs. It's pretty clear where things are trending when the mediocre vets are fully replaced by the young talent in the org, and that's not even considering whatever FA signings or trades could be made to improve the team too. People just need to be patient, there's a very exciting team shaping up.

I am optimistic in the ability of the front office to improve the team via the draft, since nearly all their early picks are doing well.

I am pessimistic in the ability of the front office to also use other avenues effectively to improve the roster, since nearly all their free agent signings and trades have brought crappy players here.

Clean house in their pro scouting department and I'd feel a lot better. As it stands, I'm expecting either nothing this summer or another 1-2 awful depth players.

 

[19 for president]

Honestly as long as Yzerman addresses the defense by getting a true top 4 dman, I'm fairly good on the FA front. He also needs to dump Tank, Holl, and Compher.

I like our kids on offense and want there to be some spots.

MBN-Larkin-Ray
DBC-Kasper-Kane
Berg-Danielson-Ras
Soderblom-Copp-Mazur

Gavrikov-Seider
Ed-Aljo
Chia-ASP
Gus

Talbot/Mrazek

I'd probably be ok with this as this lineup as it is younger, more defensively responsible, and a lot grittier than last season. Added bonus if we can snag a top 6 forward, get a better goalie than listed, and maybe swap Chia for a better defensive dman to pair with ASP.

Stevie just can't keep ignoring the glaring hole on defense. If Seider had a reasonable partner last year we probably make the playoffs.

Realistically we could take a decent step forward next year and still miss because Buffalo, Ott, and Mtl are right on the door. TB, Tor, Florida will be about the same. The only team I see in the Atlantic is Boston and that will depend on off season moves.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

This is a scary thought.

 

[Winged Wheel Willy]

In Detroit Ekblad would be in 2nd pair, easier work load than he had in Florida. But still takes pressure away from Seider. Which will definitely improve the team and common sense would say that easier deployment would decrease chance of injury. This season Ekblad missed most of his games due to suspension not because of injury.

ASP's ELC ends in 2028, next season goes in GR and probably starts 2026-27 season in GR but most likely will be the 1st call up. I believe he can take permanent spot but PP minutes will be low and not so consistant when/if there is fully healthy roster. So chances of ASP having 50-60 point season is low. 2027-28 use ASP and Ekblad in PP2, maybe ASP racks up around 40-45 points. Wings gets to re-sign ASP couple millions less, than having played all the possible PP minutes between 2026-2028 and racking up points. Offense costs money.

Starting from 2028-29 ASP in 1st PP unit and Ekblad probably one good year left, so he can still man the 2nd pair without PP time for at least 1 more year. 5-on-5 ASP in 3rd pair, adding shit ton of depth. Like Tampa played Hedman, McDonagh and Sergachev in different pairs. Last 2-3 years Ekblad in 3rd pair but i don't see his value dimishing. On the contrary, in more sheltered role he should still be able lift up the 3rd pair after ASP moves up. But if body is broken down, LTIR him.

Barkov was the immediate shadow but Ekblad took the same deployment.

I don't see Ekblad becoming candidate to get rid off, top pair D since day 1. He will slow down, only natural with age but skill never disappears. When ASP playing cheaper than he should, team cap structure stays in order. Yeah Ekblad is not taking 4 years, this is retirement contract. 6 years sounds realistic.

Better option, means Gavrikov? I don't see him signing here, Wings ain't a playoff team. Ekblad is basically from here, he is more realistic to get. In order to get Gavrikov, it would require a overpayment and i don't see that as a good option for a d-man who doesn't do PP. Gavrikov played a great season, 30 points without PP. Ed did the same and now if we create hypothetical situation where Wings pay 8.5 to get Gavrikov. And next season Ed steals PP2 unit spot from Gus because he's terrible, Ed goes and scores let say 45-50 points. His ELC ends and he wants more than Gavrikov because he scored more and Wings pay 9.25. Then ASP comes in takes the 2nd pair and PP2 unit because there is no one front of him, scores 50 points 1st and next season takes PP1 from Seider, and racks up 60-70 points. He'll be looking +10 after that. Im not in favor of overpaying Gavrikov.

I think they will keep Gus on PP2 for that exact reason. Just like they did with Ghost to keep Mo's production in his contract yr in check. And midterm ASP will take that spot anyway.

I could maybe live with more term for Ekblad, if ASP was further away. But I believe he will be knocking on the door during the coming season. That would solve the Gus/Edvinsson problem, which I see as well. I see a problem with the allocation of money on one side. Since somewhere during a longterm Ekblad deal ASP will overtake him. Then you have a 7,5mil on your third pair. Even if it takes ASP a little longer, Ekblad will become grossly overpaid. Plus, by signing Ekblad you basically force Edvinsson to play alongside Seider yr. Cuz we prob agree that spot aint for Chiarot or Johansson (and I like him a lot). And although I think Edvinsson could do it, I doubt that it is best for him.

 

[Oddbob]

Yes, he’s forced to put in an incredibly high workload, I’m not disagreeing there. However we’re also known to have one of the worst defensive cores in the league. Just because he’s forced to play a 1D role because our D sucks, doesn’t mean he’s cut out for it.

You must watch no other top D. They all play well and still make plenty of mistakes. Watching Seider play tells you he plays exactly like a very good true blue #1 Franchise D. 40+ pts every year, with bad 5 on 5 team scoring, respectable +/- given minutes and team, drags around crappy partners every year, lots of hits and blocked shots and this was only his 4th season. He has played better than Hedman did in his first 4 seasons in TB. There is not part of his game that isn't among the top 20-30 in the league.

 

[Oddbob]

They started their rebuild in 2018.

They have clearly had better lottery luck than us, and there is no saying they are ahead of us anyhow. Season records for rebuilding teams are cyclical. No saying Hutson continues to just get better, or anyone else on that team. Finishing ahead of us, doesn't guarantee they are better or ahead.