Your Rebuild Opinion? Next Move Coming?

[RedHawkDown]

Are we still insane for suggesting Larkin is traded?

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

So a guy that never handled proper top-4 deployment is going to take on the role while sheltering a rookie D-man, a offensive rookie D-man at that.

I'm not saying Hague is useless, but he's not the upgrade this team needs.

Need to get a dman to play with Seider and push down Chiarot to the 3rd pair, he's far better suited playing 18 min a night while focusing on PK.

Names please

 

[Lampedampe]

Names please

I'll get you a list by tomorrow.

It's abit pointless making a list before we know who hit the FA tbh.

But we can speculate nonetheless!

 

[schuelma24]

I wonder if Romanov from the Islanders could be a target. I assume they don't really want to move him, but if they go ahead with a full rebuild around Schafer I think the Wings could put together a nice package.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Alright, but why is he getting less ice-time than last year, same depth chart, no? Both Pietrangelo and Theodore missed time.

That wasn't my only argument, care to chime in why his possession stats are bad? Surely McNabb, Pietrangelo, Theodore and Hanifin gets tougher matchups. Infact, when looking at the charts he appears to face a lower quality of competition and offensive deployment.

Watching him in the play-offs isn't very encouraging.

Hard pass on a player who's apparently just good at blocking shots and clearing the crease.

Honestly, I don’t have a good answer. The Hague I’m familiar with is from 1 and 2 seasons ago. I didn’t watch much of Vegas this year. Maybe he’s developed bad habits from the night life? Maybe he’s in the coach’s dog house? Maybe he’s got degenerative Holl disease?

 

[jkutswings]

Are we still insane for suggesting Larkin is traded?

I definitely don't prefer it, but it's not insane to suggest the rebuild head in that direction. I just struggle to see the sanity of further propping up the existing roster while rebuilding the rebuild.

If you're trading your 1C, that's waiving a white flag on competing for anything in the short term. So deal ADB as well, stick with the existing plugs, and get as high a draft pick as you can for the next 2-3 years, instead of "being competitive" (which means still having a mediocre roster that doesn't make the playoffs, but you won't get any worthwhile draft capital out of the experience).

If they deal Larkin but never receive (or trade for) a top 2-3 overall pick to replace him, they'll just be wasting time and end up with a worse roster in the long run.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Which would be stupid. He’s a good, productive player. I’d happily take him on Detroit for the 13th overall pick.

Debrincat and Rossi as the left wings would be small but feisty. I have trouble doing this and keeping Kane as well. Rossi, Raymond, Debrincat and Kane doesn’t have a lot of bite.

Guerin is said to be not liking his size and likes big players. That is what some Minnesota fans said during the season.

Well our GM keeps saying similar things a couple times a year when he talks. Rossi like Debrincat competes hard though so not sure if it completely out of the question. I don’t believe it is a Larkin landing spot and not sure #13 gets it done.

Told to keep an eye on Nic Hague with Detroit or Montreal.

He’s now the 2nd Dman I’ve heard about with Detroit, not counting Ekblad, who some think they’ll make a play for but that’s coming more from media circles.

As for Hague, he’s almost guaranteed to be moved (due to arbitration) and Detroit is one of the likely destinations, as he fits more age wise, brings some of what they lack on the backend, and they have a couple of D prospects Vegas would be interested in. Not to mention, he fits the type of Dmen Yzerman has a history of acquiring in Tampa.

Vegas will also have interest in someone like Ben Chiarot, on a 1yr deal next season, to take Hague’s minutes. Whether Chiarot would be part of any deal, can’t say, but I’m told the plan in Detroit going into the off-season is, to clean house on the backend with only 77, 53, and 20 being on the roster. That they’d like to turn the others completely. Whether they can make it happen or not, we’ll find out.

One thing of note, while that’s their goal, don’t be surprised with who they target. It’ll be Dmen to build around 53 and 77, with ASP also being thought about. Meaning they’re going to target a vet to help shelter ASP if he’s in the NHL next year. Which is exactly why the other Dman I’ve heard makes a lot of sense.

Back to Hague, Detroit won’t be the only ones interested in him.. I’ve heard Calgary connected to him a few weeks ago, and now Montreal and Detroit.

He’s a very interesting target. Even though Hague hasn’t taken that’ll so-called next step yet, he doesn’t get the opportunity very often with their Top 4 either. He’s the exact type of Dman who’s going to blossom with more opportunities and he’d get that in Detroit, likely playing with Seider.

He can play both sides without any issues as well, and he can carry a 3rd pairing.

Adding another 6’5” Dman is very Steve Yzerman as well. Remember when Yzerman traded for Cernak, is how it was pointed out to me. Hague has a lot of those same qualities, plus a ton of experience already. Including 40 playoff games, and a Stanley Cup.

With a little more opportunity in Detroit, he’s a smart target as he enters his prime.

Probably going to cost a 2nd or 3rd with a sweetener like Tuomisto or Buium. That’s my guess.

Like I said, he’s the second Dman I’ve heard connected to the Wings having interest in. The other one is Ryan Lindgren, because of the success he had playing with Fox in NY. He’d be a real good partner for ASP on a bottom pairing, but he’s also interchangeable. He can play with Seider or even carry a 3rd pairing with another vet, or Anton Johansson.

I’ve heard his name with Detroit since the beginning of this past season. Now he’s a UFA, so we’re going to find out how interested they’ve actually been. He has a great track record sheltering young Dmen and he’ll kill penalties as well. He can also play different roles.

Speaking of Anton Johansson? He’s a lot closer than even Detroit thought. There were a lot of scouts who thought he would be much better on the smaller ice in NA, and that seems to be the case. By far GR’s best Dman down the stretch, and he’s only going to get better with his angles, etc now. Do NOT be surprised if he makes the team out of camp, and ASP spends 30-40 games in GR.

He’s in the discussion. Jumped right past the 3 in GR already, and most nights, he was the best Dman on the ice, including from opposing teams. He just gets the job done play after play, and he’s a real strong kid too. Don’t sleep on him.

A couple of other things?

Kane wants to stay. So as long as they want him back, that should get done. With the kids they want to give opportunities to, I don’t think that will cause Yzerman to pass on him, but that’s the only concern. When they originally talked 20 months ago, or whatever it was, this was always the plan. To play in Detroit until he’s done. So far nothings changed on that. If anything it’s a stronger relationship. His young family has some roots now, and that’s important when you have little kids. He’s also been a leader and part of building something, and knows Detroit gives their former players opportunities after hockey. So it’s still a great fit for him.

They’d also like to trade their 13th overall pick for a core player if they can. Haven’t heard much of what would be out there.

As for the Larkin situation, it’s something to watch over the next year or so.

Let’s just say Yzerman wasn’t happy with Larkin’s comments after the season, and that’s not where this all started either. Yzerman was not happy with Larkin’s play or leadership down there stretch. Supposedly, this goes back to 4Nations, where there was a conversation between Larkin, Draper and Cleary, that the team felt was out of line. That Larkin was almost trying to dictate moves the team should make.

So this thing could boil over.. Especially, if as many expect, the Wings take a step backwards next year, as they move more kids into the lineup. Something that was explained to Larkin before the deadline in 2024 btw. He was told they would likely have 2-3 more seasons before they’d compete consistently again. All up front, before he signed his wealth contract. Yet not a year later, he was complaining? So it’s not gone over well. Especially being their captain.

It’s also no secret Yzerman doesn’t see Larkin as many fans do. So this one could get ugly as soon as next deadline, if they’re sitting at the bottom of the standings. Fact is, they’re where NJ was a few years ago. Lots of ups and downs. That turned into NJ picking 2nd and 4th or 5th again, after they had made the playoffs. The Wings probably won too much these last two years in all honesty, because their kids have been better sooner than they expected. That doesn’t mean that big step backwards we always see as teams filter through their young players, isn’t coming this year. The old, take a step backwards, before taking two steps forward and truly competing thing.

So it may actually be in their best interest to trade Larkin. The 2-3 nice pieces they’d get in return, would probably help them more in 2-3 years, than Larkin will.

Don’t think that hasn’t gone through Yzerman’s mind, knowing they’re still 2-3 years away from truly competing to win playoff games.

Just something to ponder heading into next year, if the two sides aren’t happy with each other. In my circles, most think they’ll be a lottery team next year. Even if they make some solid moves this summer. The Atlantic is loaded and Columbus, Philly and Buffalo are all expected to take steps. Boston won’t be this bad either. So good bet, they’ll have some lottery balls for MCKenna or Stenberg.

Curious here, how does the Larkin dynamic with Draper impact the previous rumor that Yzerman would move up to President of hockey Ops with Draper as GM impact this?

Also I have heard there is heat on Yzerman for the first time. He can look at Larkin on a 2-3 year timeline but I had heard that is why he was comfortable challenging him. That he has a very limited list of places he will accept. Curious if you’re hearing a similar rumor, was told to look out for New Jersey. A few of the contenders and bigger markets but not to expect a Minny, Columbus and what is being thrown around by some fanbases. Rangers, Devils, FLA teams, Dallas, Vegas, Kings.

 

[SirloinUB]

I definitely don't prefer it, but it's not insane to suggest the rebuild head in that direction. I just struggle to see the sanity of further propping up the existing roster while rebuilding the rebuild.

If you're trading your 1C, that's waiving a white flag on competing for anything in the short term. So deal ADB as well, stick with the existing plugs, and get as high a draft pick as you can for the next 2-3 years, instead of "being competitive" (which means still having a mediocre roster that doesn't make the playoffs, but you won't get any worthwhile draft capital out of the experience).

If they deal Larkin but never receive (or trade for) a top 2-3 overall pick to replace him, they'll just be wasting time and end up with a worse roster in the long run.

Yup. Trading Larkin without an unreal outcome would be a disaster. Its a very high risk move. Especially because he has an NTC.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I definitely don't prefer it, but it's not insane to suggest the rebuild head in that direction. I just struggle to see the sanity of further propping up the existing roster while rebuilding the rebuild.

If you're trading your 1C, that's waiving a white flag on competing for anything in the short term. So deal ADB as well, stick with the existing plugs, and get as high a draft pick as you can for the next 2-3 years, instead of "being competitive" (which means still having a mediocre roster that doesn't make the playoffs, but you won't get any worthwhile draft capital out of the experience).

If they deal Larkin but never receive (or trade for) a top 2-3 overall pick to replace him, they'll just be wasting time and end up with a worse roster in the long run.

I think they are growing far more bullish on Kasper in this discussion in terms of outlook. I agree you still need another guy but I think they see him turning into a homerun like Larkin did.

 

[jkutswings]

I think they are growing far more bullish on Kasper in this discussion in terms of outlook. I agree you still need another guy but I think they see him turning into a homerun like Larkin did.

And even if you're sold on 1) Kasper becoming a Larkin-esque 1C and 2) that finding "another Larkin/Kasper" will be enough at center to compete for a Cup...

The odds of trading Larkin but not bottoming out, then finding that guy in the 8-12 overall range, are not good. Certainly not good enough as a core pillar of roster strategy.

Statistically speaking, they definitely beat the odds drafting Larkin, and they might have done it again drafting Kasper. But that doesn't mean the coin keeps coming up heads every time.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I definitely don't prefer it, but it's not insane to suggest the rebuild head in that direction. I just struggle to see the sanity of further propping up the existing roster while rebuilding the rebuild.

If you're trading your 1C, that's waiving a white flag on competing for anything in the short term. So deal ADB as well, stick with the existing plugs, and get as high a draft pick as you can for the next 2-3 years, instead of "being competitive" (which means still having a mediocre roster that doesn't make the playoffs, but you won't get any worthwhile draft capital out of the experience).

If they deal Larkin but never receive (or trade for) a top 2-3 overall pick to replace him, they'll just be wasting time and end up with a worse roster in the long run.

Any offseason improvements to the defense would be more than offset by the loss of Larkin. In net we would be much worse off than we are today. Larkin has an outsized impact on this team due to our lack of center depth. I think you also need to be careful of the message you send to Seider and Raymond. If they don't already, they will soon have the same complaints that Larkin does.

Like I said, I don't see them as being mutually exclusive. I don't for the record think we would actively tank. It would be more about trying to get younger up front and seeing where the chips fall knowing that you have a good draft class to look forward to if things go totally sideways.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

So a guy that never handled proper top-4 deployment is going to take on the role while sheltering a rookie D-man, a offensive rookie D-man at that.

I'm not saying Hague is useless, but he's not the upgrade this team needs.

Need to get a dman to play with Seider and push down Chiarot to the 3rd pair, he's far better suited playing 18 min a night while focusing on PK.

Compare Hague to Carlo. How different are they? Big, hit, block shots, clear the crease. There’s value in that.

It’s a toss up if Hague would push Chiarot down the lineup right now, but I still believe Hague would be a valuable player in a #4/5 role.

What other defensemen do you propose Detroit chase this offseason?

 

[SirloinUB]

Debrincat and Rossi as the left wings would be small but feisty. I have trouble doing this and keeping Kane as well. Rossi, Raymond, Debrincat and Kane doesn’t have a lot of bite.


Well our GM keeps saying similar things a couple times a year when he talks. Rossi like Debrincat competes hard though so not sure if it completely out of the question. I don’t believe it is a Larkin landing spot and not sure #13 gets it done.

Curious here, how does the Larkin dynamic with Draper impact the previous rumor that Yzerman would move up to President of hockey Ops with Draper as GM impact this?

Also I have heard there is heat on Yzerman for the first time. He can look at Larkin on a 2-3 year timeline but I had heard that is why he was comfortable challenging him. That he has a very limited list of places he will accept. Curious if you’re hearing a similar rumor, was told to look out for New Jersey. A few of the contenders and bigger markets but not to expect a Minny, Columbus and what is being thrown around by some fanbases. Rangers, Devils, FLA teams, Dallas, Vegas, Kings.

Hard to imagine a positive outcome from trading Larkin to the Rangers, Devils, Panthers, Lightning, Dallas Vegas or LA. I think a Larkin trade to those teams would be severely underwhelming.

Do those teams have anything that they would part with that actually makes sense for us in a Larkin trade?

I don't see guys like Byfield or Johnston or Lundell being available even for Larkin. What else would make sense for us from those teams? A package including Mercer? That's a big meh from me. Perrault would be interesting but do the Rangers part with him? Beyond that what, Bourque + 1st? Again, pretty meh. Howard + a 1st? Ouch.

If those are the only locations he is willing to accept I'd rather ride it out with Larkin.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Zero interest in Hague, doesn't look very impressive and he only averaged 16 icetime a game.

Just awful possession stats on top.

Yeah, while i appreciate the view point, saying he’d play alongside Seider when he’s been a 3rd pairing guy struck me as odd. With Holland heading to LAK, my guess is Gavrikov likely gets a Holland special, which will kill the Kings long term but take him off the market this summer which would suck.

 

[Run the Jewels]

If those are the only locations he is willing to accept I'd rather ride it out with Larkin.

If Larkin’s attitude is bad - not saying it is, just basing off Pete’s comments - you have to move him.

 

[SirloinUB]

If Larkin’s attitude is bad - not saying it is, just basing off Pete’s comments - you have to move him.

If that's the case and the proposed teams are the only options I see it as a major blow to the rebuild and a substantial step backwards.

 

[Winger98]

Debrincat and Rossi as the left wings would be small but feisty. I have trouble doing this and keeping Kane as well. Rossi, Raymond, Debrincat and Kane doesn’t have a lot of bite.


Well our GM keeps saying similar things a couple times a year when he talks. Rossi like Debrincat competes hard though so not sure if it completely out of the question. I don’t believe it is a Larkin landing spot and not sure #13 gets it done.

Curious here, how does the Larkin dynamic with Draper impact the previous rumor that Yzerman would move up to President of hockey Ops with Draper as GM impact this?

Also I have heard there is heat on Yzerman for the first time. He can look at Larkin on a 2-3 year timeline but I had heard that is why he was comfortable challenging him. That he has a very limited list of places he will accept. Curious if you’re hearing a similar rumor, was told to look out for New Jersey. A few of the contenders and bigger markets but not to expect a Minny, Columbus and what is being thrown around by some fanbases. Rangers, Devils, FLA teams, Dallas, Vegas, Kings.

NJ would be really interesting. Wonder if we could pull Hischier, or if NJ would be moving someone to wing.

 

[jkutswings]

Any offseason improvements to the defense would be more than offset by the loss of Larkin. In net we would be much worse off than we are today. Larkin has an outsized impact on this team due to our lack of center depth.

Yes, but Yzerman's track record suggests that he would also add another veteran plug or two up front. The team would still be worse overall, but not a bottom 5 team.

I think you also need to be careful of the message you send to Seider and Raymond. If they don't already, they will soon have the same complaints that Larkin does.

Completely agree.

Like I said, I don't see them as being mutually exclusive. I don't for the record think we would actively tank. It would be more about trying to get younger up front and seeing where the chips fall knowing that you have a good draft class to look forward to if things go totally sideways.

I guess I just don't see the wisdom in so many years of being "kinda bad" instead of staying fully committed. In hindsight, why sign Larkin to his current contract to begin with if you have no intention of moving things forward during his tenure here? Just ice an entire roster of awful veterans, keep the kids insulated in GR or Europe, and really be terrible until you have enough talent that moves the needle and fits the timeline.

Being patient is fine, when there's something worth waiting for. But if this rebuild ends up being significantly rebuilt without even making the playoffs, that's an epic failure of resource management.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I just saw Utah had the worst record in the NBA last season and got screwed by the NBA lottery, dropping to 5th overall. I cannot imagine having any faith in these idiotic draft lotteries as a GM.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

If the Wings move Larkin because he, all of a sudden has a bad attitude, just a few years after you liked his attitude enough to make him Captain, then I want the entire front office fired. Constant issues with player attitudes at some point have to fall on the front office.

Can't keep having issues with players after giving them contracts. Mantha, Vrana, Walman and now Larkin?!?!?! Sorry, the Wings need work it out with Dylan and get things right on both sides here. Shipping him off sends a message of non stop locker room dysfunction.

 

[Frk It]

Are we still insane for suggesting Larkin is traded?

Did something happen?

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Yes, but Yzerman's track record suggests that he would also add another veteran plug or two up front. The team would still be worse overall, but not a bottom 5 team.


Completely agree.


I guess I just don't see the wisdom in so many years of being "kinda bad" instead of staying fully committed. In hindsight, why sign Larkin to his current contract to begin with if you have no intention of moving things forward during his tenure here? Just ice an entire roster of awful veterans, keep the kids insulated in GR or Europe, and really be terrible until you have enough talent that moves the needle and fits the timeline.

Being patient is fine, when there's something worth waiting for. But if this rebuild ends up being significantly rebuilt without even making the playoffs, that's an epic failure of resource management.

I don't know. I wasn't expecting it to be a linear process. I was expecting both forward progress and regression along the way to relevancy. Besides, you hate the plugs he adds. Why would you expect them to make the team better if he signed more?

 

[DoMakc]

Are we still insane for suggesting Larkin is traded?

Given that he still has his NTC, yes.

 

[TKB]

If Larkin’s attitude is bad - not saying it is, just basing off Pete’s comments - you have to move him.

I have a hard time believing Larkin has a bad attittude, at least in the way we tradtionally think of it.

I am starting to wonder though if he is one of those guys that is just wound so tight, and given his leadership postion everyone around him kind of walks on egg shells.

If this is the case and it is time to move on, I have no hard feelings whatsover, he has earned his right to the control he has (NMC wise) and has given the WIngs his blood and guts.

Watching him in the 4 Nations it is unfathomable that I would feel this way just 3 months later, but it might be best for all to agree to move on.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I'll get you a list by tomorrow.

It's abit pointless making a list before we know who hit the FA tbh.

But we can speculate nonetheless!

So you haven't looked at the FA list yet? I will give you the cliff notes: it sucks. If you are thumbing your nose at Hague, you won't be happy with free agency.