Your Rebuild Opinion? Next Move Coming?

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

And New York getting Lafreniere. And Chicago getting Bedard (and another WC).

West Coast gets Macklin.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

Pitt got Crosby because they aren't a market. They were a whisker from getting the boot to Kansas City. They only show up for a marquee name.

Agreed. The team was about to be done. Mario Lemieux had just got into the team

 

[RabidBadger]

Nothing quite says "f*** you, quit bitching about the lottery" like being given 5th overall in a weak draft because you jumped up. I could see it...

Or if you're responding to "the horoscope of the next few years" nonsense, ya. We can't be nearly bad enough to naturally be in the good spots. That ship sailed when Ray and Mo made the show.

If we get 5th overall I'm pretty stoked about that. It looks like there are some solid picks to be had in the first round.

I mean, I'm not a pro-level scout like so many posters in this forum are, but I'm not overly concerned about the "weak draft" talk. The prognosticators said the same thing about the Hirschier/Makar draft and there turned out to some solid players from that year. The difference is I feel more confident landing a useful player based on Yzerman's draft record as opposed to Kenny when he was clearly senile and being out drafted by the likes of us.

 

[FMichael]

Would've felt a poop-ton more confident right now had Yzerman fired Lalonde last summer...This team might've weathered the storm under new coach McLellan and be in a better spot for the playoffs.

 

[FMichael]

If we get 5th overall I'm pretty stoked about that. It looks like there are some solid picks to be had in the first round.

I mean, I'm not a pro-level scout like so many posters in this forum are, but I'm not overly concerned about the "weak draft" talk. The prognosticators said the same thing about the Hirschier/Makar draft and there turned out to some solid players from that year. The difference is I feel more confident landing a useful player based on Yzerman's draft record as opposed to Kenny when he was clearly senile and being out drafted by the likes of us.

Solid picks like Zadina, Veleno, Svechnikov, and Cholowski?

All kidding aside...Since Yzerman returned the drafting has been surprisingly real gud - it's everything else that's messed up.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Solid picks like Zadina, Veleno, Svechnikov, and Cholowski?

All kidding aside...Since Yzerman returned the drafting has been surprisingly real gud - it's everything else that's messed up.

Thankfully it's one of the more important parts. Hopefully they can fix the rest.

 

[Realgud]

The vets and the depth in general has been pretty bad that I think a youth movement could actually elevate the team next season instead of them taking a step back, but I realize that might be wishful thinking and the experience on the roster is what's low-key keeping them from bottoming out over a full 82 games season.

 

[cvaicunas]

Purgatory is where this team is. Literally the worst possible situation right now. Too bad to be good and too good to be bad enough for a top 5 pick... so many plugs on the roster.... prospects getting no NHL experience...

I would think this season would not be the one to complain that prospects are not getting any playing time. We have Kasper, Soderblom, Al Jo, and Ed all in the midst of their rookie seasons. If not for his injury Mazur would likely still be up as well. There's no plugs blocking prospects, we had a coach on his death bed refusing to play prospects as he coached for his job. Since his firing, there has been a clear youth movement. Danielson should still be in AHL this year, Lombardi looks like next year will be his opportunity. Perhaps ASP and MBN as well next year.

 

[KJoe88]

I haven’t posted in a bit because since 4-Nations this team has really let fans down...

My issues with the team are really quite simple. Some nights they just don’t put effort and a lot of the time the body language is so frustrating. I understand they’re human and sometimes bad nights happen, but when it becomes consistent that is telling something toxic is stirring. A losing culture.

Then there nights and stretches where they look unbeatable.
Another note: and we all know this - 5on5 we are trash. We can’t win games only scoring on the PP unless we have gos tier offense.

I genuinely don’t believe our roster is bad. It just seems like the cogs don’t always spin cohesively for whatever reason. All I know is that I’m quite fed up with not seeing a consistent winner. Not saying a cup contender but a team that shows they want to play playoff hockey and win… hate being stuck in the middle. But I suppose Yzerman signing morons like Tarasenko and Holl shows that maybe it’s true. Filler players until the young players are ready.

That said I really don’t understand what managements plan is. If they actually run an all out young team next year with a couple vets it could be a good thing. Because the old farts (despite what I said about our roster not being bad - just imo underperforming big time) at the moment seems like they don’t care. At least my gut tells me younger players would at least try.

I’m just rambling/sorry for not making sense. I’m tired.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

I would think this season would not be the one to complain that prospects are not getting any playing time. We have Kasper, Soderblom, Al Jo, and Ed all in the midst of their rookie seasons. If not for his injury Mazur would likely still be up as well. There's no plugs blocking prospects, we had a coach on his death bed refusing to play prospects as he coached for his job. Since his firing, there has been a clear youth movement. Danielson should still be in AHL this year, Lombardi looks like next year will be his opportunity. Perhaps ASP and MBN as well next year.

Ok fine. But I don't want to see Holl anymore.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I have to wonder if some players on this team aren’t becoming disenfranchised with Yzerman.

I genuinely don’t believe our roster is bad. It just seems like the cogs don’t always spin cohesively for whatever reason.

No, this roster is legitimately bad. They have a top 12-15 first line but bottom 20 2nd line and probably 30-32 ranked 3rd and 4th lines. Definitely 32nd ranked bottom pair defense.

That said I really don’t understand what managements plan is. If they actually run an all out young team next year with a couple vets it could be a good thing. Because the old farts (despite what I said about our roster not being bad - just imo underperforming big time) at the moment seems like they don’t care. At least my gut tells me younger players would at least try.

I’m just rambling/sorry for not making sense. I’m tired.

I feel that pain too. Of course the players care, but there’s levels to it. The players on this team as a whole don’t care enough. There’s not enough fight, pushback, and f*** you in their game. It’s like if the other team pushes this team shrivel and hide. For 3 f***ing years now.

There was an article earlier this season about how quiet it is in the wings locker room and how intoverted the players on the team are, and that screams dysfunction to me. You need those outspoken types. You need the pump up guys. You need guys to pick the team up when they’re feeling down. By all reports we don’t have that, and I wonder if that’s by design. All the squeaky wheel types are gone.

 

[cvaicunas]

Ok fine. But I don't want to see Holl anymore.

There is not a single person here that does.

 

[USAHockey97]

I have to wonder if some players on this team aren’t becoming disenfranchised with Yzerman.


No, this roster is legitimately bad. They have a top 12-15 first line but bottom 20 2nd line and probably 30-32 ranked 3rd and 4th lines. Definitely 32nd ranked bottom pair defense.



I feel that pain too. Of course the players care, but there’s levels to it. The players on this team as a whole don’t care enough. There’s not enough fight, pushback, and f*** you in their game. It’s like if the other team pushes this team shrivel and hide. For 3 f***ing years now.

There was an article earlier this season about how quiet it is in the wings locker room and how intoverted the players on the team are, and that screams dysfunction to me. You need those outspoken types. You need the pump up guys. You need guys to pick the team up when they’re feeling down. By all reports we don’t have that, and I wonder if that’s by design. All the squeaky wheel types are gone.

The wings have two good goalie prospects, and are missing one top 4 d (assuming ASP) pans out. It’s the forwards that worry me. No elite/superstar talent outside of Raymond. I’d include Larkin here but he will start slowing down soon.

 

[Realgud]

I have to wonder if some players on this team aren’t becoming disenfranchised with Yzerman.


No, this roster is legitimately bad. They have a top 12-15 first line but bottom 20 2nd line and probably 30-32 ranked 3rd and 4th lines. Definitely 32nd ranked bottom pair defense.



I feel that pain too. Of course the players care, but there’s levels to it. The players on this team as a whole don’t care enough. There’s not enough fight, pushback, and f*** you in their game. It’s like if the other team pushes this team shrivel and hide. For 3 f***ing years now.

There was an article earlier this season about how quiet it is in the wings locker room and how intoverted the players on the team are, and that screams dysfunction to me. You need those outspoken types. You need the pump up guys. You need guys to pick the team up when they’re feeling down. By all reports we don’t have that, and I wonder if that’s by design. All the squeaky wheel types are gone.

At the risk of opening a can of worms... 3 years... exactly when Bertuzzi left. The roster was terrible and yet they showed more fight and stood up for each other when he was on the team. And it's not like it needs to be him specifically, but that type of teammate hasn't been found again yet imo. We need someone who brings the fire up in everyone so that they can stop getting bullied by teams like Ottawa every freaking time.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

At the risk of opening a can of worms... 3 years... exactly when Bertuzzi left. The roster was terrible and yet they showed more fight and stood up for each other when he was on the team. And it's not like it needs to be him specifically, but that type of teammate hasn't been found again yet imo. We need someone who brings the fire up in everyone so that they can stop getting bullied by teams like Ottawa every freaking time.

That’s part of it. Perron and Fabbri are guys you’d find in scrums, too. I think we’re going to see that ‘f*** you’ attitude from Ed, Kasper and MBN. I wish we’d see more of it from Raymond and Mo. I’m ok with a guy taking a penalty in a scrum if it’s sending a message.

I want to see Mo punch a guy’s head into the 4th row. I want to see Raymond give a guy the lumber after they chop him. It doesn’t have to happen every game, but they need to show they won’t be f***ed with. People give Pastrnak and Kucherov space because those guys will hack opponents that try taking liberties. (It also helps having tough teams to play on)

Guys like Compher, Berggren, Motte, Tank, Gus, Holl, and Ras need to go. We need a culture injection as much as a talent injection.

 

[RabidBadger]

At the risk of opening a can of worms... 3 years... exactly when Bertuzzi left. The roster was terrible and yet they showed more fight and stood up for each other when he was on the team. And it's not like it needs to be him specifically, but that type of teammate hasn't been found again yet imo. We need someone who brings the fire up in everyone so that they can stop getting bullied by teams like Ottawa every freaking time.

If we're going to recycle former players to get tougher then bring back Brendan Smith. Smitty is the best fighter we've had who was a regular roster player by a wide margin.

 

[Realgud]

If we're going to recycle former players to get tougher then bring back Brendan Smith. Smitty is the best fighter we've had who was a regular roster player by a wide margin.

Like I said... doesn't need to be a recycled player, just someone who brings the same energy in the room (Bert was well liked by his teammates)

 

[Frk It]

That’s part of it. Perron and Fabbri are guys you’d find in scrums, too. I think we’re going to see that ‘f*** you’ attitude from Ed, Kasper and MBN. I wish we’d see more of it from Raymond and Mo. I’m ok with a guy taking a penalty in a scrum if it’s sending a message.

I want to see Mo punch a guy’s head into the 4th row. I want to see Raymond give a guy the lumber after they chop him. It doesn’t have to happen every game, but they need to show they won’t be f***ed with. People give Pastrnak and Kucherov space because those guys will hack opponents that try taking liberties. (It also helps having tough teams to play on)

Guys like Compher, Berggren, Motte, Tank, Gus, Holl, and Ras need to go. We need a culture injection as much as a talent injection.

I want to see Raymond fight as much as I wanted to see Zetterberg fight.

Which is to say, I don’t.

We don’t need an entire team of goons. We have two big physical defenseman and we will have a few forwards who can dish it out. That’s all you need, I mean look at our roster last time we won a Cup.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Lots of speculation in recent weeks.. it would be interesting to hear from fans from this type of forum, what their expectations truly were in June of 2019, when the Draft Rebuild was announced??

Most hockey people think they’re actually ahead of schedule. Especially without having any Lottery picks. Unfortunately that’s not always how expectations work.

Generally, if you’re on this type of site, you’re more of an in-depth fan than those just reading Mlive or the Detroit News everyday, like your typical casual fans…

Problem is, there’s a lot more of those casual fans, than those who know the sport in-depth. More than any other major sport, because frankly, most of its fans couldn’t tie a pair of skates. Including in Canada, which might surprise some Americans.

Like it or not, good or bad, right or wrong, the pressure is on Steve Yzerman and the current regime to start delivering. At least more pressure than we’ve ever seen on Yzerman.

Or is it??

That I’ll get to in a second, because some of what I’m hearing, would be the Detroit Red Wings buying time for the front office to complete the rebuild..

The big problem is, they really aren’t done with their rebuild. We’re barely watching the first wave of prospects entering the NHL. Changing course today would be catastrophic for their long term success.

A couple of quick facts…

A “GREAT DRAFT” is getting ONLY THREE 200+ game NHLers. A “GOOD” Draft? One or two.

It then takes an average of 4 years before those prospects play NHL games. 5-6 years for most NHL quality Dmen.

That’s just to play in the NHL. That’s why we’re only now seeing the first big wave of prospects getting ready to become everyday NHLers.

At best, after 6 years, they’d have about 6 players already playing at various levels, on their NHL team. Currently there’s 6 Yzerman drafted players, correct?

That really is best case scenario. The fact they have 4 of those kids who look like they’re of the “Star Variety” is a huge compliment to their drafting strategy. The system is also loaded. All done with only ONE Top 5 pick.

All that said, your normal rebuild needs more than what they have to be sustainable long-term. Even though they’ve yet to have a top pick bust on them. The complete opposite is happening. They’re hitting on their top picks. Kasper just being the newest example and there’s several more to come.

The good thing is, internally, including ownership, Detroit truly believes they need another 2-3 years to keep collecting high-end prospects, and real importantly, ease a pretty large number of prospects into the lineup over the next 2 years. Next year likely being the biggest influx.

What happens with every rebuild, the year they bring in the most rookies, etc??

Teams take a significant step backwards in the standings. Just look at Ottawa and the NJ Devils in recent years. The old “One step backwards, two steps forward” saying is very true.

Not to mention, depending on how the young players do next season, you almost always need a year or two, to make a couple of trades and signings, to really call the rebuild “Complete.” To “even out” the roster.

All of the trades and UFA signings since 2019, minus Debrincat, have been of the “filler player” variety. It’s pointless to judge those signing because of two things really.

First of all, no great free agents ever sign with rebuilding teams, and secondly, they haven’t had the ammunition to make good core trades because they need every high pick they’ve had.

Finally, and very importantly, where the media, podcasters, and the impatient casual fans go terribly wrong??

You quite literally, do NOT want to win during your rebuilding years!!! That’s why you don’t make core trades yet, sign top free agents, or go crazy at any trade deadline.. It’s why Yzerman did nothing at the deadline..

You lose all leverage in the draft if you win too much. You’ll be picking 15th-20th rather than Top 10, and extending the rebuild time. Last year, and likely this year as well, that’s been the case. They actually won too much.

Unfortunately in many ways, the playoff run last season has damaged their rebuild, more than helped it.

It created ridiculous expectations this year from the core media and fans. There’s a lot more of those casual fans, now demanding results, than there are hockey folks who understand what a rebuild needs to look like, and how time consuming a rebuild is.

Well, from what I’m hearing, it’s pretty likely Detroit is set to almost come out and announce, they’ll likely be taking a step backwards next season, as the roster will see an influx of rookies. If they don’t announce it, they’ll certainly leak that being the case.

Not a bad year to go backwards though. Not with Gavin McKenna at the top of the draft, as well as a Swedish kid named Ivar Stenberg, brother of Blues prospect Otto Stenberg.

You might be a little disappointed they internally expect to go backwards next year, or are now asking yourself, how they’ll be able to do so and have Yzerman survive this mounting pressure??

That’s a big question and why many are hearing what we are hearing….

Basically…. Don’t be surprised if right after the season, but more likely, right after the draft, if Yzerman steps down as General Manager and moves into the pretty much vacated spot of Jimmy Devellano, as President of Hockey Operations, and they name Kris Draier the new General Manager.

In doing so, the speculation is, they believe that will buy them another 3 years (Honeymoon for Draper) to complete their rebuild, and give the team it’s best chance to win consistently over the next 10-15 years. Hopefully adding another 2 very high-end prospects.

For those who don’t know, after this draft, there’s 3 Drafts in a row with a Franchise altering player at the top of the draft. MCKenna in 2026, followed by DuPont in 2027 and a kid named Maddox Schultz I’ve watched several times this year, heading the 2028 draft.

The expectation from the front office and ownership is, 2 more years of Top 10 picks, and then a big jump in the 2027-2028 season, as their big wave of prospects will be entering their 2nd and 3rd NHL season. Where we historically see the big jump.

If they play the kids next year and have a great season, even better. That will mean more of their kids are immediate impact NHL players. In 2027-2028 ASP, Edvinsson and Seider will also be entering their big prime years. Same with Kasper, Raymond and others up front.

That’s the speculation I’m hearing from scouts and evaluators. That Detroit isn’t ready to call the rebuild over, but the unexpected expectations after last season, is likely going to cause some changes in the front office. Mostly to buy time, they feel they still need.

Just while I’m on here tonight, I can say, I’ve heard the Larkin speculation but nobody has heard it from any legit source.

I will say, it does happen. Players from bad teams go to these events like 4Nations, the Olympics, etc, and they do get recruited by other players, or figure out they want to play more meaningful hockey sooner than their team will be playing at that level, etc..

I doubt he actually approached Yzerman prior to the deadline, and if he does this summer, I’m sure they won’t have any problems accommodating his request.

If he really thinks Columbus or LA is his best option for his career, I’m sure Yzerman or Draper will make him happy. They won’t go out of their way to plead with him to stay, if he wants out. That I can say with absolute certainty. There were more than a couple in that front office who would’ve preferred to trade Larkin than sign him last year.

After his 4Nations performance, they can name their price in many ways. It would cost LA Byfield, plus 2 other Grade A assets, and Columbus can expect to pay a massive price as well, if it’s so important to play with Werenski down in Columbus. Carolina? Same thing. All 3 of those teams have plenty to offer in a trade for a Larkin.

As for what they might do this summer?? I do think they’ll look at some of the arbitration eligible players, especially Dmen like York, Byrum, K’Andre Miller, and Samberg, and see if they’re available. Those teams have no choice but to sign long term contracts or trade those players this summer. They can’t afford any of them going to arbitration. The player will win a massive 1-2 year deal, and walk away for free after the contract. If there’s one of those they’d like more than others, it’s likely Samberg but I think they’d like to get their hands on a Cam York as well. He’d obviously come much cheaper.

The big thing to watch for is Yzerman though. I’ve heard it from several people that he’s not going to sit there and take all the negative press. While I doubt he just up and quits, taking Jimmy Devellano’s role he had for 25 years, is one of the best jobs in the sport. Running the Detroit Red Wings NEVER being able to be fired??

It’s the goal for these former players. They love the GM jobs too but the ultimate job is what Shanahan, Sakic and Blake now have. From the day Stevie was brought back, that’s been the plan. That he’d be the manager and after the team is back on firm ground, he’d take Jimmy D’s spot as President. The timing probably couldn’t be much better because the media and those casual fans I talked about, will automatically give Draper 3 years before putting any pressure on him to perform.

It’ll be an interesting beginning of the summer for Detroit. I’d call it a 50/50 chance Draper is the Manager after the Draft.

So we're pinning our hopes on...Kris Draper? Is this real, or something along the lines of I heard something from someone who heard something from someone who posted something on a message board and once got a detail right?

What exactly has Kris Draper ever done in a front office capacity to indicate he wouldn't royally f**k this up? If he hadn't played for the DRW, would you be even remotely positive about this?

 

[lidstromiscool]

If the goal is to win a Stanley cup, then it's time to blow it up and start the rebuild over. The organization in 2025 is no closer to winning a cup than it was in 2019. Seider and Raymond are great players, but if those are our best players moving forward, it's a failed rebuild.

 

[SirloinUB]

If the goal is to win a Stanley cup, then it's time to blow it up and start the rebuild over. The organization in 2025 is no closer to winning a cup than it was in 2019. Seider and Raymond are great players, but if those are our best players moving forward, it's a failed rebuild.

2019 the red wings had one of the worst points % in nhl history and a barren prospect with Zadina as arguably the top piece.

Today they have one of the best prospect pools in the league a good (imo a very good) u23 core on the roster and we’re the first team out two years in a row.

They need more, and not just tweaking, they’ve got a ways to go. I really disagree with the statement “they are no closer”.

 

[lidstromiscool]

2019 the red wings had one of the worst points % in nhl history and a barren prospect with Zadina as arguably the top piece.

Today they have one of the best prospect pools in the league a good (imo a very good) u23 core on the roster and we’re the first team out two years in a row.

They need more, and not just tweaking, they’ve got a ways to go. I really disagree with the statement “they are no closer”.

The prospect pool is extremely overrated. Outside of ASP, the prospect pool has some good depth pieces, but no difference makers. 2019 Zadina would be our second best prospect at worst today and look how he turned out. And how long will it be until the prospects are ready to contribute? By the time (if) anyone of note is ready, Larkin will be older so add #1 center to the list of needs. Yzerman hasn't even been able to find a #2 center. The team is severely lacking high end talent, and the only way we're able to get it, is by tanking. Credit Yzerman for the terrible signings getting us stuck in purgatory. The 2010-Present Calgary Flames is a pretty comparable franchise

 

[Pavels Dog]

The prospect pool is extremely overrated. Outside of ASP, the prospect pool has some good depth pieces, but no difference makers. 2019 Zadina would be our second best prospect at worst today and look how he turned out. And how long will it be until the prospects are ready to contribute? By the time (if) anyone of note is ready, Larkin will be older so add #1 center to the list of needs. Yzerman hasn't even been able to find a #2 center. The team is severely lacking high end talent, and the only way we're able to get it, is by tanking. Credit Yzerman for the terrible signings getting us stuck in purgatory. The 2010-Present Calgary Flames is a pretty comparable franchise

Kasper is a #2C. Team’s biggest problem to solve to become a playoff team is their depth, so having a bunch of it in the prospect pool isn’t bad.

 

[FMichael]

Like I said... doesn't need to be a recycled player, just someone who brings the same energy in the room (Bert was well liked by his teammates)

I honestly thought he was going to play his entire career with Detroit...Has that 8-Mile trailer park vibe in him.

 

[Dotter]

My opinion is if Yzerman signed better UFAs, Wings would be in the playoffs. I get why he signed some of the UFAs, but I think Holl proves he thought the rebuild was going to take longer.

I think he is just sticking with the original timeline. He won't give up draft picks, and if he does, he uses a replaced pick. That tells me he is still stacking.

When he is ready to unleash, I believe he will start doing real hockey trades. People on the main boards slam this, but I think he is in a holding pattern with Chris I's blessing.