X. Texas Stars (AHL) Discussion

[Mr Misty]

Things have changed a lot since the 80s. I'm not worried about our forwards either, what makes me wince is all the abuse Klingberg takes. I think he should be more elusive and I think they should make sure he has an option to move the puck before the hit, but there's nothing else to be done unless we go full 80s. We need to roll 4 lines and having a sheriff clacking against the hull is going to slow us down more than it protects us.

 

[tjcurrie]

Things have changed a lot since the 80s. I'm not worried about our forwards either, what makes me wince is all the abuse Klingberg takes. I think he should be more elusive and I think they should make sure he has an option to move the puck before the hit, but there's nothing else to be done unless we go full 80s. We need to roll 4 lines and having a sheriff clacking against the hull is going to slow us down more than it protects us.

You don't need to go full 80s. The basis is still the same. Someone's running your guys, you respond.

I could make a big list of players who can play full-time and still fit the bill. We've carried some ourselves over the years, Tinordi, Hatcher, and Morrow are the biggies that come to mind right away, even Churla could play. Benn is one but I'd prefer he not be that guy as much. he needs to play his power forward game, but the fighting.....

This stuff is especially important come playoffs. You start getting pushed around in a 7 game series it typically doesn't go well for you. You need to play the game within the game. If you can win that battle, that's a chunk of the game right there. That's just hockey. Always has been, I pray it always will be. Maybe Bettman eliminates hitting one day.

 

[Mr Misty]

You don't need to go full 80s. The basis is still the same. Someone's running your guys, you respond.

I could make a big list of players who can play full-time and still fit the bill. This stuff is especially important come playoffs. You start getting pushed around in a 7 game series it typically doesn't go well for you. You need to play the game within the game. That's just hockey.

Not much of that in LA and Chicago these days, and they do OK.

 

[mc3488]

LA is stacked with tough guys

 

[Mr Misty]

LA is stacked with tough guys

Like Marian Gaborik and Tanner Pearson? Like Dustin Brown, the hitting and runningest NHL player of the past decade? They have Lucic now but which is their 2nd toughest guy?

They won cups because they developed a great possession system and drafted the best center in the NHL. When you mix in some good trades and drafting, you hit on a mix like that sometimes. They don't win by toughness, nobody has since the Bruins and the Ducks before them.

 

[Satan]

Like Marian Gaborik and Tanner Pearson? Like Dustin Brown, the hitting and runningest NHL player of the past decade? They have Lucic now but which is their 2nd toughest guy?

They won cups because they developed a great possession system and drafted the best center in the NHL. When you mix in some good trades and drafting, you hit on a mix like that sometimes. They don't win by toughness, nobody has since the Bruins and the Ducks before them.

They're like 9th this year in fights for what it's worth

 

[OttMorrow]

You don't need to go full 80s. The basis is still the same. Someone's running your guys, you respond.

I could make a big list of players who can play full-time and still fit the bill. We've carried some ourselves over the years, Tinordi, Hatcher, and Morrow are the biggies that come to mind right away, even Churla could play. Benn is one but I'd prefer he not be that guy as much. he needs to play his power forward game, but the fighting.....

This stuff is especially important come playoffs. You start getting pushed around in a 7 game series it typically doesn't go well for you. You need to play the game within the game. If you can win that battle, that's a chunk of the game right there. That's just hockey. Always has been, I pray it always will be. Maybe Bettman eliminates hitting one day.

I'm glad somebody gets it.

 

[mc3488]

Like Marian Gaborik and Tanner Pearson? Like Dustin Brown, the hitting and runningest NHL player of the past decade? They have Lucic now but which is their 2nd toughest guy?

They won cups because they developed a great possession system and drafted the best center in the NHL. When you mix in some good trades and drafting, you hit on a mix like that sometimes. They don't win by toughness, nobody has since the Bruins and the Ducks before them.

Kyle Clifford
Jordan Nolan
Milan Lucic
Andy Andreoff
Luke Schenn
Brayden McNabb

 

[Mr Misty]

Kyle Clifford
Jordan Nolan
Milan Lucic
Andy Andreoff
Luke Schenn
Brayden McNabb

You listed the 3 worst Kings and 5 of the worst 8, not to mention 3 new Kings this season. Look at the Hawks and the Bolts and how those teams are built. What does the Garbutt for Sekac trade tell you?

I don't see a way forward that isn't a total change in our organizational philosophy: Dickinson and Shore aren't these guys, nor Janmark or Hintz or Guryanov. If you want to replace Colton Scevior with Steve Downie or Curtis McKenzie, that's a huge step back.

 

[Benneguin]

They're like 9th this year in fights for what it's worth

Who's going to be picking fights with them? They've got size and toughness up and down that lineup, something we lack.

 

[Benneguin]

Look at the Hawks and the Bolts and how those teams are built. What does the Garbutt for Sekac trade tell you?

It tells me garbutt sucks and they don't have a need for him. Chicago is plenty tough. Just ask David Backs and St. Louis.

 

[Mr Misty]

It tells me garbutt sucks and they don't have a need for him. Chicago is plenty tough. Just ask David Backs and St. Louis.

So what does that mean? Keith is a dirty pos, so that's what we need? Jamie Benn can hit. Jokipakka's been hitting the last few games. Oduya and Demers can hit, and Oduya is especially mean. Roussel, Eakin, and Fiddler all can hit and spear and board and elbow and butt end.

The idea of toughness and grit seems to be pretty nebulous here. Is it hitting? Is it fighting? Neither of those lead to winning, and guys that hit don't have the puck, which leads to losing.

It's pretty clear to me that having the puck is the way to win. There are gonna be games where we control the shot battle but don't get goals like these last two, and that happens sometimes. Skill is the reason we had control of those games, and we didn't lose and win because of a disadvantage and then advantage in anything besides random chance.

 

[Ghost of Kyiv]

It tells me garbutt sucks and they don't have a need for him. Chicago is plenty tough. Just ask David Backs and St. Louis.

The Chicago Blackhawks have now been out-hit exactly 200 games in a row, not since Nov. 3rd 2013 have the Hawks registered more hits than their opponents. At an average weight of just 197.6 pounds they are the 4th smallest team in the league and they rarely drop the gloves. The Hawks have been one of, if not the, softest team in league for years now. And you know what? They don’t care one iota, while every team in the league is searching for grit to try impose their will physically, the Hawks are sitting back and laughing at them while admiring their 3 Stanley Cup banners from the last 6 seasons.

 

[OttMorrow]

I watched about half of the T-Stars game last night and here are my observations:

As a whole, the T-Stars are finally starting to put together a good run of good hockey.

Ranford: Good hustle...made a great pass to McKenzie on a goal. His skating is pretty good too. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a call-up again at some point this season.

Legace: Looked solid. Put up a shutout. We're gonna have a nice battle between him and Desrosiers for the #1 spot in CP.

McKenzie: 2 goals for him on the night. Didn't see the second, but the 1st was a typical net-front, McKenzie goal. McKenzie is what he is. I don't see much more too him than what you see already in terms of upside.

Ritchie: He's got the best shot on the team. Scored with a nasty shot off of a nice pass from Honka after a faceoff win by McKenzie on the PP...great to see the prospects come together on a beautiful goal like that.

Lindell: The stint in Dallas seems to have enhanced Lindell's game. This was the best game that I've seen from him. Crisp passes and good defensive plays from him last night. Best looking D on the ice this time.

Oleksiak: Snore.

 

[Frozen Failure]

I think replacing Sceviour with McKenzie is an overall upgrade to the lineup.

He's what this team lacks right now. A net front garbage collector who can still skate and play defense.

 

[OttMorrow]

I think replacing Sceviour with McKenzie is an overall upgrade to the lineup.

He's what this team lacks right now. A net front garbage collector who can still skate and play defense.

I'm not sure if McKenzie's offense will ever translate to the NHL-level very well...even as a garbage collector. I'm not sure if his hands and skating are good enough.

To replace Sceviour, Ritchie would be the better option IMO in terms of addressing the need for a net-front guy and in terms of position/handedness of Sceviour(right shot like Scevs, and plays RW like Scevs as well).

McKenzie would be more of a replacement for Moen...McKenzie is probably more of an energy guy at the NHL level realistically...and someone who you can handle sitting in the box for 5 if need be.

 

[serp]

I'm kinda interested in Lagace and if he gets a shot with the big club.

 

[tjcurrie]

I'm glad somebody gets it.

Not much of that in LA and Chicago these days, and they do OK.

You don't push those teams around though. Not at all. Letang laid a good one on Panarin a couple weeks ago and Toews went after him. See what happens if Kane starts getting run.

You don't push L.A. around. They're too big and physical.

We're not speaking of having a full lineup of thugs, we're speaking of having guys in your lineup who can A - Be the pusher not the pushee (ironic what "pushee" sounds like), and B - push back hard if need be, lay down the law when it has to be laid down.

If you paid attention to the names I mentioned who we previously employed in the not-so-distant past (Tinordi, Churla, Hatcher, Morrow), 3/4 were guys who could play top minutes AND lay the smack down, especially the two D.

Go read up on how Hatcher's famous hit on J.R. in spring '99 as payback for him running Modano prior sparked and even more-so united the dressing room heading into the playoffs.

If you've been on a bench or in a dressing room, you know what that stuff means. You know what it means to see a team mate stick up for another. You know what it does for momentum and moral, not to mention the message it sends the other team, and others.

That stuff all matters. It's a damn shame that people want to pretend that it doesn't in "Today's NHL". Gary may not like it all, but hockey players deep down are the same today as they were yesterday. It's a part of the game and every part of the game you can win, the better.

The Hawks may get out-hit, but that's because they have the puck more often than anyone else. It doesn't mean they're getting pushed around or letting guys take runs at their players all night. Hell, statistically we would get out-hit by the oilers in those old playoff battles. We weren't being pushed around or putting up with them running our guys. There is a difference. It's kind of like saying the team with the most shots was the better of the two, without looking at the shots in better context.

I don't mind seeing a stat that says we're being out-hit, I mind watching a game where we get pushed around and I see our stars getting targeted without any push-back. You don't always have to be the bigger and badder team, or fight whenever someone lays a finger on one of your guys, that's not what's being said, but you just don't put up with liberties being taken out on your guys and you need to be able to push-back.

 

[Troy McClure]

Well, a lot of ice time is going to players who just aren't tough in any old NHL sense. Spezza, Seguin, Hemsky, Nichushkin, Klingberg, and Goligoski are all guys who contribute nothing to a physical game.

 

[Mr Misty]

I think replacing Sceviour with McKenzie is an overall upgrade to the lineup.

He's what this team lacks right now. A net front garbage collector who can still skate and play defense.

Scevior is much better than McKenzie. When you consider that he kills penalties, whatever crash the net advantage McKenzie has evaporates completely.

I'm not sure if McKenzie's offense will ever translate to the NHL-level very well...even as a garbage collector. I'm not sure if his hands and skating are good enough.

To replace Sceviour, Ritchie would be the better option IMO in terms of addressing the need for a net-front guy and in terms of position/handedness of Sceviour(right shot like Scevs, and plays RW like Scevs as well).

McKenzie would be more of a replacement for Moen...McKenzie is probably more of an energy guy at the NHL level realistically...and someone who you can handle sitting in the box for 5 if need be.

Agree about his ceiling. I wonder if Shore's injury means we might have McKenzie and Ranford in the NHL as rotating 12th/13th forwards. But make no mistake that McKenzie is a terrible fighter.

You don't push those teams around though. Not at all. Letang laid a good one on Panarin a couple weeks ago and Toews went after him. See what happens if Kane starts getting run.

You don't push L.A. around. They're too big and physical.

We're not speaking of having a full lineup of thugs, we're speaking of having guys in your lineup who can A - Be the pusher not the pushee (ironic what "pushee" sounds like), and B - push back hard if need be, lay down the law when it has to be laid down.

If you paid attention to the names I mentioned who we previously employed in the not-so-distant past (Tinordi, Churla, Hatcher, Morrow), 3/4 were guys who could play top minutes AND lay the smack down, especially the two D.

Go read up on how Hatcher's famous hit on J.R. in spring '99 as payback for him running Modano prior sparked and even more-so united the dressing room heading into the playoffs.

If you've been on a bench or in a dressing room, you know what that stuff means. You know what it means to see a team mate stick up for another. You know what it does for momentum and moral, not to mention the message it sends the other team, and others.

That stuff all matters. It's a damn shame that people want to pretend that it doesn't in "Today's NHL". Gary may not like it all, but hockey players deep down are the same today as they were yesterday. It's a part of the game and every part of the game you can win, the better.

The Hawks may get out-hit, but that's because they have the puck more often than anyone else. It doesn't mean they're getting pushed around or letting guys take runs at their players all night. Hell, statistically we would get out-hit by the oilers in those old playoff battles. We weren't being pushed around or putting up with them running our guys. There is a difference. It's kind of like saying the team with the most shots was the better of the two, without looking at the shots in better context.

I don't mind seeing a stat that says we're being out-hit, I mind watching a game where we get pushed around and I see our stars getting targeted without any push-back. You don't always have to be the bigger and badder team, or fight whenever someone lays a finger on one of your guys, that's not what's being said, but you just don't put up with liberties being taken out on your guys and you need to be able to push-back.

So we need somebody who gets boo-boo face when there's a clean hit? I don't see a solution anywhere, partly because adding just one player does nothing and there are very few who can keep up while also being tough guys. Plus nobody takes any single big hits, Klingberg gets hit over and over but it's never even borderline. And it isn't like McKenzie forcing Kulikov to punch him in the face a bunch saved us last year.

Remember that clown that butt ended Benn? Seguin got mad and what was the result: a pp without our best shooter and he could have been hurt in the scrum. If it had been us hitting Panarin, what would have been the consequences if Jokipakka or Demers got the chance to cave in Toews' face? Bad for the Hawks in the short term as both sit, bad for them in the long term if Toews gets hurt.

 

[Troy McClure]

Remember that clown that butt ended Benn? Seguin got mad and what was the result: a pp without our best shooter and he could have been hurt in the scrum. If it had been us hitting Panarin, what would have been the consequences if Jokipakka or Demers got the chance to cave in Toews' face? Bad for the Hawks in the short term as both sit, bad for them in the long term if Toews gets hurt.

That's what it comes down to. A strong PP protects your players much more than any enforcer or general toughness ever will. Go back to the first couple of months in the season when the PP was on fire. Did anyone complain about our star players getting hit hard?

Go back a few years when the Stars were all about being #pesky. They had guys willing to fight at the slightest glance, and there was nothing especially tough about that team. They got pushed around and picked on far more than this current team. For good reason. When the PP was only scoring at 18% or so, the opponent didn't fear being physical or taking cheap shots.

 

[MBTendy]

I'm kinda interested in Lagace and if he gets a shot with the big club.

Lagace strikes me as career AHL'er. Who knows. I'm just happy he's giving PD competition. Competition is always healthy for goalies.

 

[tjcurrie]

Here's a fact for y'all.

2013 Cup Final

Hawks are getting tossed around by the Bruins. Chara is having his way with the forwards.

Do you know when the tide turned?

It turned when Jonathan Toews, the captain, started going at Chara.

You can argue against it, but it's true.

Not every clean hit needs revenge, what was originally stated was "Our guys were getting run." There's a difference.

It's pretty simple. Always been a part of the game. Not sure what else to say.

 

[OttMorrow]

Here's a fact for y'all.

2013 Cup Final

Hawks are getting tossed around by the Bruins. Chara is having his way with the forwards.

Do you know when the tide turned?

It turned when Jonathan Toews, the captain, started going at Chara.

You can argue against it, but it's true.

Not every clean hit needs revenge, what was originally stated was "Our guys were getting run." There's a difference.

It's pretty simple. Always been a part of the game. Not sure what else to say.

That's right.

This doesn't mean you want to go around taking runs at people, taking a lot of retaliatory penalties, etc...what you do need is the leadership, pride, and team-mentality to stand up for yourself when the opposition is hammering your players...it creates energy, confidence, and a sense of team when you pick your spots to stand strong. There is still a physical dimension to the sport...and I hope that never changes.

 

[dave_no]

Faksa on the fire! 4+6 last 5 games. 26 points in 28 games. nice