WTH is wrong with the Sedins?

[Cogburn]

Just going to throw this out there as well...remember the huge shift in dynamics coming out of the last lock out? I think we're seeing it again. Look at who are dominating the charts right now: Vanek, Marleau, St Louis, Kane, Parenteau, Staal...Thornton to some extent. None of these guys rely on set plays, or to my knowledge, the same kinds of skill sets the Sedins have. With the exception of Thornton, these guys are all much fast then the Sedins, and can also score very well on the rush. It's not a knock on the Sedins by any stretch, but it's showing that the game has changed.

Also, anyone of those guys mentioned play on a team that can attack with any line, and have at least two lines featuring a star player. So the Kesler injury affects the Sedins' play too.

At least we know we can, more or less, play defensively if we need to down the road.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Just going to throw this out there as well...remember the huge shift in dynamics coming out of the last lock out? I think we're seeing it again. Look at who are dominating the charts right now: Vanek, Marleau, St Louis, Kane, Parenteau, Staal...Thornton to some extent. None of these guys rely on set plays, or to my knowledge, the same kinds of skill sets the Sedins have. With the exception of Thornton, these guys are all much fast then the Sedins, and can also score very well on the rush. It's not a knock on the Sedins by any stretch, but it's showing that the game has changed.

Also, anyone of those guys mentioned play on a team that can attack with any line, and have at least two lines featuring a star player. So the Kesler injury affects the Sedins' play too.

At least we know we can, more or less, play defensively if we need to down the road.

remember the awesomeness of the spring of '10, when the sedins themselves routinely scored off the rush and didn't rely on set plays?

 

[pahlsson]

they keep trying fancy plays that worked for them 2 years ago except they forgot that the main reason they worked in the first place was because of hard work and effort.

 

[vanuck]

Henrik needs to shoot more. A lot more.

I've always thought this as well. You can still be a dangerous playmaker even if you shoot a bit more. In fact I'd argue it would make him MORE dangerous if he shot the puck more often. Have felt like he's just not confident in his shot hence why he doesn't use it as much. He should do what Kesler did and practice it in the offseason too.

I've liked some of his attempted dangles through the opposing D this season though.

But I agree with Mr. C. They look like they're trying for those perfect plays out there, when their timing isn't even entirely back yet. Simple plays would work best at this stage IMO.

Also, with the game favouring more obstruction - although it hasn't looked that way so far this year - its not realistic to expect Art Ross numbers anymore.

 

[Fat Tony]

Just going to throw this out there as well...remember the huge shift in dynamics coming out of the last lock out?

That's because of some drastic rule changes. That's not the case this time around.

 

[alternate]

I don't give a rat's behind what the Sedins do in the regular season anymore. I wouldn't care if they didn't get another point as long as we made the playoffs (obviously that would be hard to accomplish).

At this point in the Sedins' career, it's all about the playoffs. Oh noes, nine games in and they aren't clicking on all cylinders!!! Forgetaboutit. I'm completely fine with them taking their time rounding into form and hitting the playoffs at the top of their game.

 

[KidCanuck*]

LOL.....oh please!

We're talking about millionaires who are playing a game !

They're getting paid an exaggerated amount of money to stay in shape and entertain people.

You're damn right I expect more out of the 2 supposed best players the Canucks have...cause if this is it,then we can kiss the season goodbye.

And don't start that it's only 8 games,that BS...........

You do realise we don't play against peewee teams right? There are Millionaires on every team we play. It's a competitive league, the best in the world. No matter how in shape you are the other team prepares too. When your team is missing their 2nd line center who easily eats up 20 minutes of ice time per game in all situations it makes it easier for other teams to zero in on you key players. We are winning and if you have a problem with that go cheer for Buffalo where Hodgson and Vanek are cleaning up in points and are the worst defensive team in the league.

 

[Phrazer]

Just going to throw this out there as well...remember the huge shift in dynamics coming out of the last lock out? I think we're seeing it again. Look at who are dominating the charts right now: Vanek, Marleau, St Louis, Kane, Parenteau, Staal...Thornton to some extent. None of these guys rely on set plays, or to my knowledge, the same kinds of skill sets the Sedins have. With the exception of Thornton, these guys are all much fast then the Sedins, and can also score very well on the rush. It's not a knock on the Sedins by any stretch, but it's showing that the game has changed.

Also, anyone of those guys mentioned play on a team that can attack with any line, and have at least two lines featuring a star player. So the Kesler injury affects the Sedins' play too.

At least we know we can, more or less, play defensively if we need to down the road.

I don't think it is a indicator of long term change. I think the reason more "score on the rush" guys are having success is because a good portion of this league just had an 8 month break from hockey, and it takes a lot longer to get back into sync for set play/defensive hockey, than it does for skate up the ice and shoot hockey.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

I don't think it is a indicator of long term change. I think the reason more "score on the rush" guys are having success is because a good portion of this league just had an 8 month break from hockey, and it takes a lot longer to get back into sync for set play/defensive hockey, than it does for skate up the ice and shoot hockey.

I think this is a big part of it.

 

[freakydave]

Linden's heyday preceded hockey fandom migrating onto the net. But back in the day, there was a lot of comparison between him and Mike Modano. They were different types of players and had different personalities but they were taken 1-2 in their draft. Modano was off the board when the Canucks took Linden but that didn't stop the chatter in the media or on the radio talk shows.

He scored 2 goals in the biggest game of his career so he'll always get a pass from me.

The year before they lost to the NYR in the SCF --Linden was the only guy who showed up for the series vs LA.After that he always got a pass from me.

 

[y2kcanucks]

The year before they lost to the NYR in the SCF --Linden was the only guy who showed up for the series vs LA.After that he always got a pass from me.

Linden was a true leader and a heart and soul kind of player. That's why he was loved. That's also why I never liked Naslund and am not a Sedin fan. I compare these guys to Linden and his performances in the playoffs and, despite being more talented, their performances fall a lot short.

 

[canucks9314]

i'm not worried. still expect them to finish around 50 points

 

[Snatcher Demko]

I've been saying this since the 2011 playoffs, and I'll say it again.


I'd like to see the Sedins split up 5-on-5 ES, but back together on the PP or 4-on-4 ES.

Against good defensive teams like LA, Nashville, Boston, the Sedins have proven to be a liability 5-on-5 but still effective when there's more ice for them to make plays.

It's no secret, their collective plus/minus was atrocious in the 2011 playoffs. When the play tightens up against elite competition, the Sedins are far less effective 5-on-5 offensively, and we've had some back-breaking/OT goals scored against us when they were hemmed in. And it won't improve as they age.

They certainly have the talent to mesh with anyone, as evidenced by Henrik's play when Daniel was injured in his Hart winning season.


Daniel-Kesler-Kassian
Booth-Hank-Burrows
Higgins-JS-Hansen
Raymond-Lapierre-Weise

Here we have both of the top lines with a better balance of ability, speed and size. Maybe Hansen in the top 6 instead of Booth, given Booth's lack of hockey sense.

I'd like to see it tried out, anyway. My 2 cents.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

^^^

Just to add, in general though, there's nothing wrong per se with the Twins, and I expect they'll get 50 points this year, together or apart.

But in the playoffs, when things tighten up and teams hone in on their offensive plays and patterns, having them separated will be better defensively.

 

[LiveeviL]

^^^

Just to add, in general though, there's nothing wrong per se with the Twins, and I expect they'll get 50 points this year, together or apart.

But in the playoffs, when things tighten up and teams hone in on their offensive plays and patterns, having them separated will be better defensively.

Or even offensively. Secondary scoring has been a problem with this team even without injuries. As the Sedins can play without each other we would get two even lines and not one top line. On the other hand it is a duel situation, how much defensive power can the opposition put up against these two lines. I think the balance will tip in our favour taken that into account.

In addition the team got scoring on the bottom 6 two. If the opposition go all in with as much defensiveness they can against the two top lines we will see Laipierre and Malhotra scoring more often than now.

I agree on the PP: the Sedins must be together, of course.

 

[AmazingNuck]

10-11: 1st (Daniel) and 5th (Henrik)
09-10: 1st (Henrik) and 5th (Daniel)
08-09: 7th (Daniel) and 11th (Henrik)

Last year was the first year they declined at ES (and even then only one of them) as Henrik finished 12th and Daniel 56th.

Ah, yes, 09-11, which correlates exactly with Ehrhoff's tenure.

You can look at stats to try and tell the story or you could try to tell with your eyes. Ever since Ehrhoff left, the Sedins' way of entering the zone has basically been: slow down at the line, make a tight drop pass, and skate it in.. or a soft dump and chase game. They spend a lot more time entering the zone to set up the play than when Ehrhoff simply rushed the puck from the back-end. They probably spend about 5 more seconds on average per shift breaking the zone, retrieving the puck, and setting up the zone for offense. Having to break the zone without a legitimate puck-moving defenseman screws them up severely.

I don't blame the Sedins. We've always known about their lack of footspeed, but Gillis got around that by bringing in Ehrhoff and establishing a system based on puck movement and speed. Unfortunately for Gillis and Vigneault, they lost the player most essential to that system and have not replaced him. None of our defensemen are fast enough to work in a system like that, which is why we needed two goaltenders to constantly bail us out last year.

The Sedins' biggest weakness isn't their toughness or defensive play, but their lack of speed.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

None of our defensemen are fast enough to work in a system like that,

ballard is. he just can't do everything else ehrhoff did to make the PP work.

 

[Tiranis]

Ah, yes, 09-11, which correlates exactly with Ehrhoff's tenure.

You can look at stats to try and tell the story or you could try to tell with your eyes. Ever since Ehrhoff left, the Sedins' way of entering the zone has basically been: slow down at the line, make a tight drop pass, and skate it in.. or a soft dump and chase game. They spend a lot more time entering the zone to set up the play than when Ehrhoff simply rushed the puck from the back-end. They probably spend about 5 more seconds on average per shift breaking the zone, retrieving the puck, and setting up the zone for offense. Having to break the zone without a legitimate puck-moving defenseman screws them up severely.

I don't blame the Sedins. We've always known about their lack of footspeed, but Gillis got around that by bringing in Ehrhoff and establishing a system based on puck movement and speed. Unfortunately for Gillis and Vigneault, they lost the player most essential to that system and have not replaced him. None of our defensemen are fast enough to work in a system like that, which is why we needed two goaltenders to constantly bail us out last year.

The Sedins' biggest weakness isn't their toughness or defensive play, but their lack of speed.

That's nice and all, but the difference between 08-09 and 10-11 was about 4 points for each Sedin at ES. 09-10 was an outlier when Henrik put up more ES points than anyone else in the league by a wide margin. Nobody has had that many ES points since Jagr in 98-99 (and even he had 1 less point).

Edit: Between 10-11 and 11-12, Henrik had 5 points less without Ehrhoff but he also played 10 games without Daniel.

 

[vanuck]

I've been saying this since the 2011 playoffs, and I'll say it again.


I'd like to see the Sedins split up 5-on-5 ES, but back together on the PP or 4-on-4 ES.

Against good defensive teams like LA, Nashville, Boston, the Sedins have proven to be a liability 5-on-5 but still effective when there's more ice for them to make plays.

It's no secret, their collective plus/minus was atrocious in the 2011 playoffs. When the play tightens up against elite competition, the Sedins are far less effective 5-on-5 offensively, and we've had some back-breaking/OT goals scored against us when they were hemmed in. And it won't improve as they age.

They certainly have the talent to mesh with anyone, as evidenced by Henrik's play when Daniel was injured in his Hart winning season.


Daniel-Kesler-Kassian
Booth-Hank-Burrows
Higgins-JS-Hansen
Raymond-Lapierre-Weise

Here we have both of the top lines with a better balance of ability, speed and size. Maybe Hansen in the top 6 instead of Booth, given Booth's lack of hockey sense.

I'd like to see it tried out, anyway. My 2 cents.

Agreed. Just for once, I'd like to see them try it. It might actually make the team's attack more rounded out. That way, if they need to they have a backup plan to go to if things aren't working offensively. You shouldn't have to live and die by only one possible configuration for the Sedin line - your most skilled players who *should* be able to make others better too, not only each other. Spread the love! (and talent)

 

[Win One Before I Die]

theyll be better when kesler is back, less attention on them 5on5 and powerplay gets boosted with kesler causing havoc (not that id take off kassian)

 

[Fat Tony]

The PP stunk last year even with Kesler in the lineup. What's missing was Ehrhoff and, now, Salo.

 

[Scurr]

Agreed. Just for once, I'd like to see them try it. It might actually make the team's attack more rounded out. That way, if they need to they have a backup plan to go to if things aren't working offensively. You shouldn't have to live and die by only one possible configuration for the Sedin line - your most skilled players who *should* be able to make others better too, not only each other. Spread the love! (and talent)

The twins make everyone on the ice better when they're out there. They've made a half dozen guys very rich.

Is it just me or does Daniels skating look much better than Hanks?

 

[AmazingNuck]

That's nice and all, but the difference between 08-09 and 10-11 was about 4 points for each Sedin at ES. 09-10 was an outlier when Henrik put up more ES points than anyone else in the league by a wide margin. Nobody has had that many ES points since Jagr in 98-99 (and even he had 1 less point).

Edit: Between 10-11 and 11-12, Henrik had 5 points less without Ehrhoff but he also played 10 games without Daniel.

Sorry, I mistook your previous post as trying to respond to Ehrhoff's effect on the Sedins, when you really were trying to prove that the Sedins were elite at ES.

My original post said "They are not elite even strength goal scorers." All of the following numbers are pro-rated over an 82 game schedule.

08-09
Daniel scores 22 ES goals, good for 19th in the league, and scores 9 ppg. 29% of his goals were powerplay goals.

Henrik scores 18 ES goals, which doesn't place him in the top 30, and scores 4 ppg. 18% of his goals were powerplay goals.

09-10
Daniel scores 27 ES goals (prorated), good for 7th in the league. He scores 10 ppg (prorated), which makes his powerplay goal percentage 27%.

Henrik scores 23 ES goals, which puts him at 13th in the league. He scores 4 ppg goals, which puts him at 13.7% ppg for total goals (SH 2).

10-11
Daniel scores 23 ES goals, putting him at 18. He scores a staggering 18 powerplay goals, which puts his powerplay goal percentage at 44%.

Henrik scores 11 ES goals.. too low to rank. He scores 8 powerplay goals, good for 42% of his ppg%.

11-12
Daniel scores 23 goals, prorated, which puts him at rank 21. He scores 11 ppg (prorated), which puts him at about 32% for ppg%.

Henrik scores 6 ES goals. Six. He scores 8 goals on the powerplay, good for 57% of his goals coming from the powerplay.


Henrik is not an elite even strength goal scorer. I don't think that's disputable. Whether you think that's a fair measuring stick or not does not change the fact that my statement holds for Henrik, simply because he's a playmaker. That does not mean he's not a good player, just that he's not an elite goal scorer. He's also not a great penalty killer.

Daniel is somewhere below elite ES goal scorer. His ES goal total has always been surrounded by guys who have scored about 2 more or 2 less than him. He's a great ES scorer, but that does not qualify as elite.

We can't really look at the 09-10 season for Daniel since the injury did affect him quite a bit, so our best sample is 10-11. Daniel, Henrik, Edler, Ehrhoff, and Kesler formed one of the best PP units in the league. Accordingly, Daniel hits his first 40 goal season and hits 18 ppg. However, his ES goal total stays about the same as usual.. hence, Ehrhoff elevates Daniel's season.

Since you insisted on the quantities, I shall return my stance in a quantified form. If you want qualified reasons for why I believe the Sedins aren't elite goal scorers at even strength, then I shall comply.

 

[Tiranis]

Sorry, I mistook your previous post as trying to respond to Ehrhoff's effect on the Sedins, when you really were trying to prove that the Sedins were elite at ES.

I guess I'm confused by why it matters if they're elite even strength goal scorers or if they're simply elite ES players? If they're still setting up other guys for those goals then they're doing their job.

 

[vanuck]

The twins make everyone on the ice better when they're out there. They've made a half dozen guys very rich.

True, which is why I'd like to see the effect they'd have on separate lines. Both have good vision, and even Daniel is a good passer. He might mesh with Kesler in that way. So which line do you send your top pairing out against then? Henrik, meanwhile, seems like a different player when he isn't being flanked by his twin, as we saw against LA. There might be some surprising benefits to breaking them up for a while.