World Juniors vs World Championships in Europe

[Peiskos]

The 10% very best players are not there. It's just a big cash grab for Hockey Canada TSN and friends. It simply doesn't matter in the big picture. And to be honest it's become very boring as well. You don't see Spanish German or whatever football nations bragging because they won U17 U20 tournaments or so what.

You seem to share the same sentiment about all international hockey tournaments involving Canada, for example you've still yet to explain to me how this comment is accurate after saying it was an suburb comment - "Since Canadians (apart from a few Olympic episodes) can't really celebrate any achievements in international hockey." ...sooo 1994, 1997, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2015, 2016 IIHF WC golds mean nothing orr???

Along with this one : "Since they (Canada) sabotage all other forms of international hockey in favour of their beloved domestic league."

Its complete nonsense. Please I implore you to explain this to me.

 

[Faterson]

What international hockey events has Canada refused to participate in exactly?

Erm... Pyongchang is only a few months in the past. And I said fully participate, not just participate. You bold a sentence without really reading it. Sending a second-tier (or fifteenth-tier, really) team to a top-level tournament the way Canada did in this year's Olympics, amounts to sabotaging the tourney, I'm afraid.

As to who exactly is to blame for the sabotage, I grant you I'm not sure. But you speak as if the NHL were a 100% US invention imposed on the country of Canada by an occupying force. It can't be a black-and-white issue like that. Overall, Canadian fans must support their (half-)domestic league over international competition, or otherwise they'd revolt.

Can you imagine the German or English football league refusing to send the best players to represent Germany or England at the World Cup? No, it's unthinkable – the German and English population at large wouldn't allow that. Clearly, things are different in hockey.

 

[Peiskos]

Erm... Pyongchang is only a few months in the past. And I said fully participate, not just participate. You bold a sentence without really reading it. Sending a second-tier (or fifteenth-tier, really) team to a top-level tournament the way Canada did in this year's Olympics, amounts to sabotaging the tourney, I'm afraid.

As to who exactly is to blame for the sabotage, I grant you I'm not sure. But you speak as if the NHL were a 100% US invention imposed on the country of Canada by an occupying force. It can't be a black-and-white issue like that. Overall, Canadian fans must support their (half-)domestic league over international competition, or otherwise they'd revolt.

Can you imagine the German or English football league refusing to send the best players to represent Germany or England at the World Cup? No, it's unthinkable – the German and English population at large wouldn't allow that. Clearly, things are different in hockey.

Umm, that was the best possible team Canada could assemble given we weren't allowed to send our NHL players. Once again your issue is that you believe Hockey Canada runs all of international hockey and actually has a say with the NHL execs...which is laughable and actually quite hilarious. Please go learn.

Also you've once again ignored my other comment, "Since Canadians (apart from a few Olympic episodes) can't really celebrate any achievements in international hockey." You've claimed that comment to be "superb".. elaborate.

 

[Faterson]

Also you've once again ignored my other comment, "Since Canadians (apart from a few Olympic episodes) can't really celebrate any achievements in international hockey." You've claimed that comment to be "superb".. elaborate.

You're confusing the various posters here and Canada's wins at the World Championships aren't on the Olympic level precisely because WC aren't best-on-best tournaments (from the opponents' side, either), and so such wins "can't really be celebrated" the way the Olympic victories back in 2010 and 2014 could.

Or the way this year's winner of the World Cup in football in Russia will be able to celebrate. If international competition can work fine in football in which there's even more money involved than in hockey, why can't we have proper international competition in hockey, too? Not exactly sure who's to blame for that, but the blame is located in North America, that seems certain.

By the way, another nice football parallel: they basically conduct a juniors football tournament at the Olympics. Yeah, you could say international football is sabotaging the Olympics. I suppose it would be too much to have another top-level international tournament in addition to the World Cup and continental cup every 2 years (and continental international champions' league every year). But do you see any football nation celebrate their Olympic wins? Not really, because it's just a juniors tournament. A side affair, as any juniors tourney should be compared to the seniors tournament. Making it seem as if the juniors tourney were more important than the seniors tourney is putting things on their head.

 

[ZEBROA]

I as a Swede only watch Wjc to see new talent that might be helping us win gold in wc. If we get a medal thats just a bonus. But i always want us to beat Finland. Love them but hate to loose against them.

 

[Peiskos]

You're confusing the various posters here and Canada's wins at the World Championships aren't on the Olympic level precisely because WC aren't best-on-best tournaments (from the opponents' side, either), and so such wins "can't really be celebrated" the way the Olympic victories back in 2010 and 2014 could.

Or the way this year's winner of the World Cup in football in Russia will be able to celebrate. If international competition can work fine in football in which there's even more money involved than in hockey, why can't we have proper international competition in hockey, too? Not exactly sure who's to blame for that, but the blame is located in North America, that seems certain.

By the way, another nice football parallel: they basically conduct a juniors football tournament at the Olympics. Yeah, you could say international football is sabotaging the Olympics. I suppose it would be too much to have another top-level international tournament in addition to the World Cup and continental cup every 2 years (and continental international champions' league every year). But do you see any football nation celebrate their Olympic wins? Not really, because it's just a juniors tournament. A side affair, as any juniors tourney should be compared to the seniors tournament. Making it seem as if the juniors tourney were more important than the seniors tourney is putting things on their head.

I'm not confusing anyone, I decided to reply to you because you mentioned the comment was superb and I disagree with that. That poster mentioned that Canada's can't really celebrate any achievements in international hockey which even just typing that sounds absolutely ridiculous.

If Canada apparently can't really celebrate any achievements in international hockey than no country can celebrate any achievements in international hockey simply based on the fact that Canada has by far and away achieved more in international hockey than anyone else and its actually not even close, its a landslide.

With regards to your opinion on the WC victories, I view your opinion as very defeatist. IIHF WC victories can be celebrated, tell the Finns that they can't celebrate their 2011 WC, they were dancing in the streets, thousands and thousands of people, look at this video!!!! Its a difficult tournament to win, its a tournament that tests the depth of hockey nations, their ability to overcome not having their best but still managing to come out on top.

 

[Lepardi]

But do you see any football nation celebrate their Olympic wins? Not really, because it's just a juniors tournament.

Swedish fans after Sweden's U21 European Championship victory:

 

[ZEBROA]

I'm not confusing anyone, I decided to reply to you because you mentioned the comment was superb and I disagree with that. That poster mentioned that Canada's can't really celebrate any achievements in international hockey which even just typing that sounds absolutely ridiculous.

If Canada apparently can't really celebrate any achievements in international hockey than no country can celebrate any achievements in international hockey simply based on the fact that Canada has by far and away achieved more in international hockey than anyone else and its actually not even close, its a landslide.

With regards to your opinion on the WC victories, I view your opinion as very defeatist. IIHF WC victories can be celebrated, tell the Finns that they can't celebrate their 2011 WC, they were dancing in the streets, thousands and thousands of people, look at this video!!!! Its a difficult tournament to win, its a tournament that tests the depth of hockey nations, their ability to overcome not having their best but still managing to come out on top.

Canada aint a landslide from Russia/ Soviet. But i would say there nr one.

 

[Hockeyisl1fe]

WJC is more entertaining and full of interesting prospects to get a look on. Casual fans don't care about these things and thus the WHC is more popular, I don't really care that much about it. I legit cheered for Denmark in the last game because I was tired of the hype lol, they're full of meaningless games anyway.

 

[Faterson]

I'm not confusing anyone, I decided to reply to you because you mentioned the comment was superb and I disagree with that.

Yup, you're not confusing anyone – you're the one who's confused here. Once again, I never mentioned that any comment was "superb" – that was a different poster.

And, congratulations on those Nagano and Torino "landslides"...

 

[Peiskos]

Yup, you're not confusing anyone – you're the one who's confused here. Once again, I never mentioned that any comment was "superb" – that was a different poster.

And, congratulations on those Nagano and Torino "landslides"...

Perhaps visual aides will help you understand my reasoning behind using the term "landslide". There have been 14 best vs best tournaments in the history of international hockey, bolded are the ones Canada has won.

1. 1972 Summit Series
2. 1976 CC
3. 1981 CC
4. 1984 CC
5. 1987 CC
6. 1991 CC
7. 1996 WCOH
8. 1998 OG
9. 2002 OG
10. 2004 WCOH
11. 2006 OG
12. 2010 OG
13. 2014 OG
14. 2016 WCOH

Canada has won a staggering 71% of all BEST VS BEST hockey tournaments that have ever taken place on this beautiful blue ball we call earth. I don't think there is a more fitting word than LANDSLIDE.

 

[Lepardi]

Canada has won a staggering 71% of all BEST VS BEST hockey tournaments that have ever taken place on this beautiful blue ball we call earth. I don't think there is a more fitting word than LANDSLIDE.

Getting to pick the referees and tell them what to do helped quite a bit in building up that statistic back in the day. Nowadays that's not really needed anymore.

 

[Faterson]

Perhaps visual aides will help you understand my reasoning behind using the term "landslide".

You've got to be kidding. 1972 was a series of exhibition games between 2 countries – neither a tournament, nor "best-on-best". Considering it significant on any other than symbolic, Cold War-tinged level, is almost as clueless as Americans calling their domestic baseball league "World Series".

The same with the 2016 Gimmick Cup. You're not seriously suggesting that travesty of an exhibition pre-season tournament, a glorified All Stars weekend prolonged to last over a week, with Europe Leftovers playing in the finals, should count for anything at all???

 

[Peiskos]

Getting to pick the referees and tell them what to do helped quite a bit in building up that statistic back in the day. Nowadays that's not really needed anymore.

Hahaha the old tired "referee" excuse. Tell me do you actually genuinely believe this or is the overwhelming physical proof that Canada has the most depth/skill of anyone still not enough for you to admit Canada is legitimately the most successful hockey nation in history?

I mean Canada has a 21 year old who is already the best player in the world (McDavid) for the past 2 straight years with back to back Art Ross trophies and 100+ point seasons in the NHL. No other country produces these kinds of generational superstars..at least not lately. Canada has already produced two of them within a 10 year span (Crosby 2005 draft) and McDavid (2015 draft) and you already know with certainty that another is on the way.

But you're right, its totally the refs that are totally responsible for Canada's hockey prowess.

 

[Peiskos]

You've got to be kidding. 1972 was a series of exhibition games between 2 countries – neither a tournament, nor "best-on-best". Considering it significant on any other than symbolic, Cold War-tinged level, is almost as clueless as Americans calling their domestic baseball league "World Series".

The same with the 2016 Gimmick Cup. You're not seriously suggesting that travesty of an exhibition pre-season tournament, a glorified All Stars weekend prolonged to last over a week, with Europe Leftovers playing in the finals, should count for anything at all???

I obviously don't agree with you and clearly you have a certain narrative you want to write so its not even worth the time to argue with you about that. But for arguments sake I'll go ahead and subtract that for ya. We can look at the Olympics since 1998, best vs best? fair enough for you?

1998 OG
2002 OG
2006 OG
2010 OG
2014 OG

That's still 60% of all best vs best tournaments dating back 2 decades.. and thus still a landslide. Lol.

 

[Lepardi]

Hahaha the old tired "referee" excuse. Tell me do you actually genuinely believe this or is the overwhelming physical proof that Canada has the most depth/skill of anyone still not enough for you to admit Canada is legitimately the most successful hockey nation in history?

Canada is definitely the most successful hockey nation in history, and after the collapse of the Soviet Union they haven't needed the help of referees anymore.

 

[Peiskos]

Canada is definitely the most successful hockey nation in history, and after the collapse of the Soviet Union they haven't needed the help of referees anymore.

Except for the fact that when Canada's best got to play the Soviets we beat them 90% of the time...you're making zero sense right now.

If you want to see biased officiating you can clearly watch the Summit Series games that Canada played in the USSR from the Soviet paid refs. The Soviets even stole Canada's meat they flew in from Canada, just went missing, the team also kept getting mysterious phone calls late at night in their hotel in attempts to disturb their sleep.

Please if you want to play this game go learn your hockey history.

 

[Faterson]

That's still 60% of all best vs best tournaments dating back 2 decades.. and thus still a landslide.

Of course it's not a landslide. Consult a dictionary, please. Winning 3 out of 5 is barely a majority, and one of those 3 was a pretty lucky overtime win.

 

[Peiskos]

Of course it's not a landslide. Consult a dictionary, please. Winning 3 out of 5 is barely a majority, and one of those 3 was a pretty lucky overtime win.

Lol but don't you see you're saying 3 of 5 is barely a majority but you continually fail to realize that no other country has ever won more than 1 best vs best tournament.

What was wrong with the 2004 WCOH? you're just cherry picking because you want this to go your way. Hilarious.

 

[Lepardi]

If you want to see biased officiating you can clearly watch the Summit Series games that Canada played in the USSR

Very true. And if I want to see biased officiating, I can also watch the Canda Cup games played in North America in the 80s. I'm not saying it's wrong Alan Eagleson rigged the games, because the West was fighting a horrible system that absolutely deserved to crumble. And I certainly don't believe the officiating would have been any less biased had the Soviets picked the refs. Quite the opposite. They showed in the Moscow Olympics in 1980 that they were more than willing to cheat blatantly.

 

[Albatros]

In Europe the World Cup of Hockey is just another forgettable NHL event, not really a part of the international calendar at all.

 

[Faterson]

you continually fail to realize that no other country has ever won more than 1 best vs best tournament.

Which doesn't negate the fact that winning 3 out of 5 is anything but a landslide – it's barely eking out a majority. And, Canada had major luck in Vancouver, not just in the finals. (If anyone remembers the final moments of the semifinal game, us Slovaks do.)

Most of all, your protestations don't seem to relate to the subject of this thread, which is comparing the significance of the juniors and the men's tourney from the perspective of Europeans. Winning most best-on-best tourneys hardly gives Canada the licence to sabotage top-level international events year after year... while proclaiming the juniors tournament to be equally or even more important than the men's tournament – that can only be done for the domestic TV public. No one in Europe will buy that.

 

[Lepardi]

while proclaiming the juniors tournament to be equally or even more important than the men's tournament – that can only be done for the domestic TV public. No one in Europe will buy that.

There are plenty of people in Finland who think the WJC is more important than the men's tournament. It's a way of differentiating yourself from the "stupid masses" who become hockey enthusiasts for two weeks every May. There are also many people in Finland who root for the opposing team when Finland plays in the men's WC. We already saw a Finnish guy in this thread who told us he was happy when Denmark beat Finland on Wednesday. Rooting for Finland's opponents is particularly common among football fans. They think people who follow hockey are really stupid because it's such a small sport globally compared to football. They also think it's asinine to celebrate achievements in such a minuscule sport as if they mean something.

 

[Peiskos]

Which doesn't negate the fact that winning 3 out of 5 is anything but a landslide – it's barely eking out a majority. And, Canada had major luck in Vancouver, not just in the finals. (If anyone remembers the final moments of the semifinal game, us Slovaks do.)

Most of all, your protestations don't seem to relate to the subject of this thread, which is comparing the significance of the juniors and the men's tourney from the perspective of Europeans. Winning most best-on-best tourneys hardly gives Canada the licence to sabotage top-level international events year after year... while proclaiming the juniors tournament to be equally or even more important than the men's tournament – that can only be done for the domestic TV public. No one in Europe will buy that.

Winning more than 1 best vs best tournament is clearly something every nation apart from Canada is incapable of so the fact that Canada has won 3 allows for the term landslide. Also yet again you continue on with this fantasy of Canada "sabotaging top-level international events year after year" you've yet to actually give real concrete examples of this even means. Utter nonsensical delusion.

 

[Faterson]

There are also many people in Finland who root for the opposing team when Finland plays in the men's WC.

Of course. There are also people who commit suicides. I was talking about sane people. There are also no doubt many Canadians who root for the opposing team whenever Canada plays, just to "be different from the crowd". But these are the HF Boards and the talk is about hockey fans.