World Cup of Hockey 2028

[joelef]

That’s a dumb method, if mlb does that.

They did it so it would be competitive and non baseball countries could have access to higher level playets

 

[GKJ]

At the 2012 Barcelona Hockey Forum they discussed two issues:

1) European competition (NHL/KHL model vs UEFA CL model)

2) International schedule with Olympics, NHL World Cup & IIHF Worlds. The KHL´s propsosal looked like

year 1 - Olympics
year 2 - IIHF Worlds
year 3 - NHL World Cup
year 4 - IIHF Worlds
year 5 - Olympics
year 6 - IIHF Worlds
year 7 - NHL World Cup
year 8 - IIHF Worlds

The NHL was willing to pause their season in February for Olympcis & NHL World Cup. The KHL as well. The ideal scenario would be if the IIHF Worlds take place in February as well. But, the IIHF & Euros refused that proposal. IIHF´s argument was money, they claim the organisation would lose money with Worlds happening every second year.

Afterwards, in the upcoming years the NHL & KHL discussed the topic, they negotiated about a club tournament/match-up as well. It is clear the NHL & KHL reached an agreement, the current NHL´s steps are a proof.

The KHL proposed this model to fix league´s scheduling. The KHL plays much more games in regular season than any other Euro league. But the KHL had to finish the season, playoffs, before May´s IIHF Worlds. So, the KHL wanted to agree with IIHF on a new dates for IIHF Worlds. In February. It is not a problem for the KHL to pause a season in February if they can prolong the playoffs into May. The proposal was refused, but the IIHF solved that KHL´s issue now the KHL is not under IIHF jurisdiction, so they can play Gagarin Cup in May. That making the IIHF´s position much weaker in case of any future talks on international schedule (with NHL as well).

Current status quo is NOT beneficial for all major European hockey leagues as well. They can not prolong their season due to May´s IIHF Worlds, even if they wanted. So, they can not develop their business. And, the most important. As a result of that Hockey Forum, the Champions Hockey League was started in 2014. That competition plays their games in current international breaks, aka EuroHockeyTour pauses. Earlier Czech clubs complained, now I hear about Swiss clubs complaining. They do not want to release their players for EHT tournaments .... so, the CHL as proclaimed top compeition in Europe is the biggest victime of the current IIHF schedulling. If the IIHF & others agreed on a new model (as 2012 proposal), the Champions Hockey League would be a big winner of that agreement ....

You wrote " But 2012 is a lifetime ago at this point."

Agree, it is many years ago ... one would say it is not relevant now what happened then back in 2012. But, it is still relevant! The problems discussed in 2012 has not been solved till today! Moreover, one or two more problem/s (Champions Hockey League & KHL separated from IIHF) have appeared here.

It is maybe because of that in 2012 that they finally got to this point, which is basically as you have it, just leaving out the Worlds taking place in February on the off-years. Having a best-on-best every year feels like a bit too much really. Also, the NHL doesn’t really have any investment in the Champions Hockey League to listen to that. We know it takes the NHL forever to do anything though.

 

[vorky]

It is maybe because of that in 2012 that they finally got to this point, which is basically as you have it, just leaving out the Worlds taking place in February on the off-years. Having a best-on-best every year feels like a bit too much really. Also, the NHL doesn’t really have any investment in the Champions Hockey League to listen to that. We know it takes the NHL forever to do anything though.

Yeah. I mentioned the Champions Hockey League for a context, That 2012 proposal would be beneficial for the CHL, European leagues (SHL, Liiga etc) as well, not only for KHL (longer season into May) & NHL (having NHL World Cup). But, the conservative organisation like IIHF refused.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yeah. I mentioned the Champions Hockey League for a context, That 2012 proposal would be beneficial for the CHL, European leagues (SHL, Liiga etc) as well, not only for KHL (longer season into May) & NHL (having NHL World Cup). But, the conservative organisation like IIHF refused.

The IHHF already has the world championships in May, been like that forever.

 

[GKJ]

Yeah. I mentioned the Champions Hockey League for a context, That 2012 proposal would be beneficial for the CHL, European leagues (SHL, Liiga etc) as well, not only for KHL (longer season into May) & NHL (having NHL World Cup). But, the conservative organisation like IIHF refused.

I think IIHF might like the way it is, or the way it would be with Russia, to have the worlds not have as many NHL players so that it keeps other teams more competitive.

 

[Edenjung]

Just my two cents:

Ain't gonna happen.

No european league (I don't count the KHL as european, as it also spans into Asia) would release players so close to the playoffs.
And no, money does not solve this at all.

They do not benefit from this at all. Players are ripped from their teams in the most busy part of the season, can get injured and impact the teams performance a lot. Money cannot offset this at all.
The teams also lose revenue from attendance, which is their biggest money maker. A DEL team for example does not make much money besides that (merch and sponsors are not that much), they don't make much in terms of profit. So every team would need to be compensated significantly. And not only DEL teams. but teams from all leagues. That is a lot of money, because they would not go for scraps. I doubt the NHL would like to fork over 50%+ in revenue to the leagues.

And the teams don't benefit from such a tournament in the long term. If its played in europe they might. But if its in NA, then only hardcore fans will watch. And their regular fans will be alienated because they cannot see their team play during the regular season. So you don't get new fans for the teams and even worse, you might lose some of your existing ones. That is just bad economically and nobody with an ounce of economic knowledge would agree to something like that.

Overall this would be a huge minus for the european leagues, the lose revenue, they might lose players and thus have worse results in the league (lose revenue again, might even be relegated), the schedule gets fcked and so on.

And blaming the IIHF and the european leagues just shows that the view is way to NA centric. You have to put yourself into the shoes of the IIHF and the european leagues. They don't win shit, they only lose if they accept what the NHL wants.

Personally, I would not consent to this. Ice-hockey does not only revolve around the NHL and KHL.

Add to that the fact that the worldchampionship has way bigger relevance for Europe and their leagues and you see again why nobody would do this.
And nobody really cares about the 4 nations tournament. I have not seen anybody talk about or seen media cover it. Maybe in Sweden or Finland.

 

[vorky]

Just my two cents:

Ain't gonna happen.

No european league (I don't count the KHL as european, as it also spans into Asia) would release players so close to the playoffs.
And no, money does not solve this at all.

They do not benefit from this at all. Players are ripped from their teams in the most busy part of the season, can get injured and impact the teams performance a lot. Money cannot offset this at all.
The teams also lose revenue from attendance, which is their biggest money maker. A DEL team for example does not make much money besides that (merch and sponsors are not that much), they don't make much in terms of profit. So every team would need to be compensated significantly. And not only DEL teams. but teams from all leagues. That is a lot of money, because they would not go for scraps. I doubt the NHL would like to fork over 50%+ in revenue to the leagues.

And the teams don't benefit from such a tournament in the long term. If its played in europe they might. But if its in NA, then only hardcore fans will watch. And their regular fans will be alienated because they cannot see their team play during the regular season. So you don't get new fans for the teams and even worse, you might lose some of your existing ones. That is just bad economically and nobody with an ounce of economic knowledge would agree to something like that.

Overall this would be a huge minus for the european leagues, the lose revenue, they might lose players and thus have worse results in the league (lose revenue again, might even be relegated), the schedule gets fcked and so on.

And blaming the IIHF and the european leagues just shows that the view is way to NA centric. You have to put yourself into the shoes of the IIHF and the european leagues. They don't win shit, they only lose if they accept what the NHL wants.

Personally, I would not consent to this. Ice-hockey does not only revolve around the NHL and KHL.

Add to that the fact that the worldchampionship has way bigger relevance for Europe and their leagues and you see again why nobody would do this.
And nobody really cares about the 4 nations tournament. I have not seen anybody talk about or seen media cover it. Maybe in Sweden or Finland.

Thank you for a proof of my words.

You wrote: "You have to put yourself into the shoes of the IIHF and the european leagues." OK, I will do it.

1.The NHL will do its World Cup even if IIHF/Euros disagree. That is just up to the NHL. Euros can not do anything with it.

2.Taking #1 into consideration, Euro leagues (& Champions Hockey League) will be played during the 2028 World Cup. Even worse scenario () for Euros is if euro teams release their players.

3.How will the IIHF Worlds in 2028 be affected by February´s NHL World Cup? I mean NHLers coming to IIHF Worlds, fans interest? You know ...

Yes, it would be the best scenario for IIHF/Euro leagues if no World Cup to be played in February. But, the reality is different. So, my question is ... is it worth if? would not be better to agree on new international schedule?

WHY?

1.European hockey calendar is packed. Leagues play much less games than NHL or KHL, but for example Finns (Liiga) play a bit more games with more flexible schedule. Plus, you have the Champions Hockey League which needs to be played during the EHT breaks - conflict between National Teams & CHL. They had to put CHL game days into EHT breaks, because there is no other option due to IIHF Worlds in May! If we want the CHL to be more prestigous, we need to fix their game days. With status quo, we can not fix it, no dates are available. One solution is to abandon the CHL.

2.What if Liiga, SHL etc wanted to expand their schedule (more regular season games) for ... they can not, no dates available.

3.Yes, IIHF Worlds bring money to all global hockey. Needs to be every year - they say. Perhaps, it is time to consider other model.... I do not know other global sport where the top event (World Championship) is played with players who are free from their league/s. Even FIFA is able to relocate the FIFA World Cup to benefit all (2022 Qatar, 2034 Saudi?). Yes, NHL will not pause every year in February, so problem for February´s IIHF Worlds. Some solution needs to be find.

Conclusion: the IIHF will be forced to rethink their position ... if not, the global (especially european) hockey will suffer.

 

[Tawnos]

I should clear up, the CAN/SWE game did a quarter better than the CAN/USA game did in 2016.

I think they reached a point where if they’re willing to shut down the season for the Olympics, they should be willing to do it when they’re going to benefit more from it in a World Cup, that’s always going to be played in North America. I question though how they intend on having European markets more involved. They did talk about qualifying tournaments, which would probably still have to be in August or September.

I think this is an understated part of all of this. All of the things that the NHL has done to increase revenue give them far more leeway to shut things down for a couple of weeks. The new TV deals, digital board ads, jersey and helmet ads, and yes… sports betting revenue. Yeah, there’s no doubt they still suck at marketing on a league-wide level and could be increasing revenue even more.

On a visceral level, I dislike some of that stuff. But there’s no real doubt that it gives the league some space and flexibility to do stuff like this.

 

[Flukeshot]

As a North American NHL fan, who does enjoy best on best, I have a hard time trusting the NHL and/or the IIHF to give us fans the tournament we all really want to see.

The NHL's World Cups have been poor formats, and are openly focused on revenue more than anything. Anyone paying attention to the 2016 World Cup knows it was a flop, and revenue estimate for it was $110m. This 4-Nations is expected to be less than that. Is it better than an all-star event? Absolutely.

Then if I'm reading the financial reporting correctly, the IIHF basically runs a deficit through a full year (all events).

So the NHL is needed for the $, but the IIHF is needed to secure the players and format to give the legitimacy even North American fans want.

The NHL schedule needs to take priority but the European federations and leagues need to be paid out enough to make it worth them entirely ruining their schedules.

Whay really what is the ideal tournament to everyone? For me I'd love to see at least 12 countries but would be fine if the big 6 or so had byes to the main event in North America with the next 6 to 10 countries playing a quick preliminary round.

 

[Edenjung]

@Flukeshot
Why does the NHL schedule need to take priority?

Again the world does not revolve around the NHL and should never revolve around it. Having any singular company (and nothing else is the NHL really) be in charge is bad for any sport. And yes organizations like the MaFIFA, IOC, FIS or WA are not great either. But that does not mean that a sport should have to act on the ideas of a company. International sport should try to get everybody in a boat and be above one league itself.
To come to a compromise that works for the majority of bodies of a sport.
And so far this is not given. With the majority of bodies of the sport rejecting the ideas of 2 bodies that are not even part of the over arching organisation, it is not up to these to adhere to what the other entities want.

What is right is that the NHL would need to pay. And pay big time. Because they would basically destroy the product of the bigger organization (bigger in terms of member count) and jeopardize their members finanical and time schedule for nothing (not even a bag of pucks). In addition any tournament that is held in N.A does not contribute to the majority of IIHF members, because the fans and potential fans will not turn in (time zones). So it is not beneficial for the IIHF to roll on their back and let the NHL step on them. Similarily they will also consider the current political climate and what their members will do in terms of this. And while I know the majority of people like to pretend that sports are apolitical, they are not. In fact international games and best on best tournaments are highly political. So this will always play a role as long as different countries exist and even states in a country.

So I don't see any way that both the NHL and IIHF will come to an agreement that satisfies both sides. And even if the NHL tries to invite other teams, I think these teams will decline to participate, because it does not benefit them in the long term. As I have pointed out before, the financial burden for european leagues is huge as it is and they can survive the olympics because its every 4 years. But more than that is not possible. And it ain't cheap to compensate a whole league for missing games, fans, attendance and possible injuries.

And the NHL does not want to change their schedule. Which is fair, but then they should not complain when the rest of the hockey world (except Russia and belarus) does not play ball with them, because they have their own schedule. Again the world of hockey does not revolve only around the NHL, with all other leagues being nothing more than vassals that have to entertain their lord whenever they want.

 

[Flukeshot]

@Edenjung I think you've captured the problem very well and it is why we haven't seen a World Cup of Hockey with an ideal format.

I'm not trying to be overly Pro North American but merely assessing the situation.

Truly the existing IIHF World Championship each year is the best available format. I'd personally rather see that tournament used as the best on best format every four years. But the NHL won't pause their schedule in April before their playoffs. Would the IIHF consider a different time? If so that's why the NHL schedule is more important. No NHL players mean much less revenue. We all know the NHL is just after the $, they aren't doing this to "advance the game on a global scale".

I could see the NHL for 2028 go with CAN, RUS, USA, FIN, SWE, CZE filled with NHL, AHL and a handful of Euro based players if needed. Then they can go "bribe" 2 other Hockey Federations and their domestic league to halt their seasons to participate.

If you got the DEL and NLA you get two qualified countries to get to 8 total. You get their North American based players, and their Domestic league players. If some of the best German or Swiss players are in other Euro leagues and won't be available, I'm sure the NHL wouldn't care.

 

[vorky]

@Edenjung I think you've captured the problem very well and it is why we haven't seen a World Cup of Hockey with an ideal format.

I'm not trying to be overly Pro North American but merely assessing the situation.

Truly the existing IIHF World Championship each year is the best available format. I'd personally rather see that tournament used as the best on best format every four years. But the NHL won't pause their schedule in April before their playoffs. Would the IIHF consider a different time? If so that's why the NHL schedule is more important. No NHL players mean much less revenue. We all know the NHL is just after the $, they aren't doing this to "advance the game on a global scale".

I could see the NHL for 2028 go with CAN, RUS, USA, FIN, SWE, CZE filled with NHL, AHL and a handful of Euro based players if needed. Then they can go "bribe" 2 other Hockey Federations and their domestic league to halt their seasons to participate.

If you got the DEL and NLA you get two qualified countries to get to 8 total. You get their North American based players, and their Domestic league players. If some of the best German or Swiss players are in other Euro leagues and won't be available, I'm sure the NHL wouldn't care.

@Flukeshot
Why does the NHL schedule need to take priority?

Again the world does not revolve around the NHL and should never revolve around it. Having any singular company (and nothing else is the NHL really) be in charge is bad for any sport. And yes organizations like the MaFIFA, IOC, FIS or WA are not great either. But that does not mean that a sport should have to act on the ideas of a company. International sport should try to get everybody in a boat and be above one league itself.
To come to a compromise that works for the majority of bodies of a sport.
And so far this is not given. With the majority of bodies of the sport rejecting the ideas of 2 bodies that are not even part of the over arching organisation, it is not up to these to adhere to what the other entities want.

What is right is that the NHL would need to pay. And pay big time. Because they would basically destroy the product of the bigger organization (bigger in terms of member count) and jeopardize their members finanical and time schedule for nothing (not even a bag of pucks). In addition any tournament that is held in N.A does not contribute to the majority of IIHF members, because the fans and potential fans will not turn in (time zones). So it is not beneficial for the IIHF to roll on their back and let the NHL step on them. Similarily they will also consider the current political climate and what their members will do in terms of this. And while I know the majority of people like to pretend that sports are apolitical, they are not. In fact international games and best on best tournaments are highly political. So this will always play a role as long as different countries exist and even states in a country.

So I don't see any way that both the NHL and IIHF will come to an agreement that satisfies both sides. And even if the NHL tries to invite other teams, I think these teams will decline to participate, because it does not benefit them in the long term. As I have pointed out before, the financial burden for european leagues is huge as it is and they can survive the olympics because its every 4 years. But more than that is not possible. And it ain't cheap to compensate a whole league for missing games, fans, attendance and possible injuries.

And the NHL does not want to change their schedule. Which is fair, but then they should not complain when the rest of the hockey world (except Russia and belarus) does not play ball with them, because they have their own schedule. Again the world of hockey does not revolve only around the NHL, with all other leagues being nothing more than vassals that have to entertain their lord whenever they want.

I do agree, no private league should take priority (schedule) over international sports governing body. The question is if current IIHF calendar (IIHF Worlds in May) benefits the IIHF as organisation (& global hockey community) and European hockey leagues, who are under IIHF jurisdiction? Every era of mankind has its specifical issues & solutions. If something worked some 20-40 years ago, it does not mean it should work today.

Look at hockey history. Look when the IIHF Worlds took place in 1960s, 1970s & 1980s. Yes, it is tradition to organise the IIHF Worlds after the European leagues finish their seasons. For example, 1978-1978 season top Euro leagues finished at the end of March (or April 2-4), while the IIHF Worlds started at the end oF April. Meaning, NTs had a week or two for training camps. The same happened in 1986-1987 season, the leagues finished in mid March, while the IIHF Worlds started one month later. We can see the NTs had time to prepare for IIHF Worlds. That was a main principle, which is still working today in soccer as example. It does not work anymore in hockey. The argument to host the IIHF Worlds after leagues´ finish their season is not valid anymore. Plus, today we live in other era, different reality. In 1970s & 1980s top Swedes, Finns, Czechoslovaks or Soviets played in Europe, not NHL. The NTs coaches did not need to wait how the Stanley Cup was going, which Swedes/Soviets/Germans will join NT at IIHF Worlds.

That being said, the pre-1990 hockey model continued in 1990s & afterwards with one important issue - more & more Euros, top Euros, moving to the NHL. But the IIHF Worlds continued to be held in April-May like nothing changed, while everyone knew that top Euros will not attend the IIHF Worlds anymore. Like they did before +/- 1990. Name me team sports whose world championship is dependant on a private league like hockey. I mean in participation of top players .... Today, NTs are heavily dependant on a fact who is eliminated from NHL playoffs. Does not THIS degrade the idea of world hockey championship? Yes, the May´s hockey worlds had a reason before 1990 when all top players attended it (now I do not discuss why NHLers did not join Canada/USA, that is another issue). Is it still worth today?

European leagues were not oriented on business in 1970s, 1980s. Guessing, they would like to be today. Yes, even today, their schedule is similar to 1980s with specifical game-days. Is it good for their business? The KHL took different path with games days every day of a week, like NHL. The KHL plays much more regular season games than any Euro league, with longer playoffs than other Euros. Because of a bussiness. Therefore the KHL came with the idea to re-schedule the IIHF Worlds with obligatory February break, but no IIHF Worlds after season in May. European hockey nations wanted some type of the UEFA Champions League, so they launched the Champions Hockey League (CHL) in 2014. Read what I wrote in previous days in different threads. But, there has not been any free game days for the CHL. So they did the simpliest thing - they added the CHL games into current international breaks during season. These breaks are here for NTs games - EuroHockeyTour (EHT). But, problem occured. Clubs playing the CHL did not want to release their players for EHT tournaments. Or other extreme, NTs took players so clubs played with much weaker roster in CHL. Evident conflict which is here till today, latest I heard about NL (Switzerland) having problems with releasing players for recent EHT in Sweden. Btw, how will Swedes organise the EHT tournament in Feb 2028? So, the CHL has not brought some bussiness opportunities to European clubs, but the burden. As well as to NTs. I am asking, is it good for a hockey, European hockey? If the IIHF Worlds (& Olympics, NHL World Cup) took place in February, this European scheduling issue would be solved. You know, new era, we do not live in 1980s anymore. Yes, the IIHF Worlds may suffer. But with status quo, the IIHF Worlds as well as European leagues have been suffering.

Let us look at reality. The NHL will organise its World Cup in February. Like it or not. The KHL will support the NHL with it & pause a season for February. As you know, the KHL extended their season into May, when the IIHF Worlds take place. When all is back again, the IIHF Worlds will have not just NHL, but also KHL with many NTs candidates who will not be able to join NTs at IIHF Worlds in May. Let us ask yourself - will the IIHF & global hockey benefit from it?

 

[Fjorden]

NHL and NHLPA would like to start planning on event. IIHF currently in negotiations with organization they work with to put these events on.

NHL and NHLPA willing to go it allow if needed.

Why not just keep it as 4 nations tournament?
It worked well, it was not a huge difference between the teams with mostly close games.

It should not be named "world cup" though as it is not open for every team to qualify and participate.
Maybe something like "World Hockey Tour" would be suitable, inspired by the EHT, Euro hockey tour a tournament based on an invitation, and not on qualifications and performance.

 

[Noldo]

Why not just keep it as 4 nations tournament?
It worked well, it was not a huge difference between the teams with mostly close games.

It should not be named "world cup" though as it is not open for every team to qualify and participate.
Maybe something like "World Hockey Tour" would be suitable, inspired by the EHT, Euro hockey tour a tournament based on an invitation, and not on qualifications and performance.

Short answer is the League wants to have Russia in - and four nations format is not really suitable for that.