Blue Jays Discussion: WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo!!!!!!!!!! (avatars: posts 1-4)

[HamiltonNHL]

What distracted both the ump and Martin here ?

Maybe 2 strikes ... and a quick check to see if he went around ?
hmmm

EDIT: there were 2 strikes, but the batter didnt swing.

 

[theaub]

is a team that manufactures runs a harder opponent for the Jays pitchers?

seems that way to me but I dont' remember the jays struggling against them. I remember them sweeping the Royals like they were nothing. Not sure that happened but it's what I remember.

The Jays have three pitchers (Estrada/Price/Dickey) that are above average to elite at stopping the run game, one of the best defensive catchers in the league and overall have above average defenders at every position except the corner outfield spots.

The Royals are an absolutely fantastic matchup for us, but as always the playoffs are a crapshoot theory overrides it.

 

[BertCorbeau]

is a team that manufactures runs a harder opponent for the Jays pitchers?

seems that way to me but I dont' remember the jays struggling against them. I remember them sweeping the Royals like they were nothing. Not sure that happened but it's what I remember.

Jays wont the season series this year but by only 1 game IIRC

I don't think so .. The Jays have excellent defense that plays to their advantage, plus pitchers like Estrada/Dickey that aren't strikeout guys and are fly ball pitchers.. Stro and Price are quite good so it doesn't really matter what type of line up they face they'll get K's and induce weak contact.

 

[BertCorbeau]

What distracted both the ump and Martin here ?

Maybe 2 strikes ... and a quick check to see if he went around ?
hmmm

EDIT: there were 2 strikes.

Odor was on third, Martin was looking to see if he was cheating off the base .. The ump was doing the same in case Martin tried to throw to third

 

[Ovate]

Where does it not say that ?

If batters mess around with throws back to the mound ... it messes everything up.

Pitchers throws
Catcher catches the ball.
The next play from here is the catcher has to throw the ball back.
The batter needs to *MOVE OUT OF THE WAY*.
He didn't.

The main problem here is the rule.
The rules need fixing.

The rule needs to be unintentional interference makes the ball dead.
The fact that there is no such rule is plain wrong.
This situation proved it.

My guess is that such a rule is implemented. But until then ... batters should practice advancing the runners via "unintentionally getting in the way" of the throw back to the mound.

I think it's odd there is no good rule for this situation. It must have happened many times. Especially with batters sticking their bat out oddly like that.

To me ... Choo purposefully put his arm out. It is his arm. His bat clearly interfered with the play. He was at fault. And next time he should get out of the way.

The batter being in the batter box is reasonably moving out of the way.

I'm glad you've gone from "intentional interference" to "can't prove it wasn't intentional", to "unintentional but the batter's fault", to "the rules need to be changed". Shows that when literally everyone disagrees with you, you're willing to concede a point.

 

[Longshot]

is a team that manufactures runs a harder opponent for the Jays pitchers?

seems that way to me but I dont' remember the jays struggling against them. I remember them sweeping the Royals like they were nothing. Not sure that happened but it's what I remember.

You need to better define what "manufactures" means.

Every team manufactures runs, they just take different approaches.

The Jays have an extremely patient and powerful line up. They try and get people on base and drive them home with their surplus of extra base power.

KC doesn't have the power the Jays have and play more of a contact game, using their speed.

 

[TF97]

I still laugh every time I see Alcides Escobar's name penciled in the leadoff spot

 

[TootooTrain]

Fans serenade jays bus on it's way to the airport.

https://instagram.com/p/83QIxsTZ5J/?taken-by=latroyhawkins32

 

[Silver91]

That looks reasonable, but my thoughts are that I want to get Stro and Price two starts no matter what - so using either out of the pen isn't a great idea unless it's in an elimination type scenario.

That means you need 3 starts from Dickey/Estrada. I'd lean towards starting Dickey in game 1, and if he falters (maybe give him a short leash) Estrada is a good option to come out of the bullpen as a long man to eat innings. In this case, Dickey would not have thrown many pitches and would be good to start game 4 on short rest (even if he had a good game, he could still start on short rest given his throwing style). Estrada would be good for game 5 then as pitching Friday would give him normal rest between those appearances.

The thing is, Dickey pitching gm 1 is short rest as well, in which case you may as well go with Price. Also, I'd rather have Price and Stroman on normal rest for games 2/3 and then 6 and 7 than pushing them to go early in games 1/2 or 5/6, especially when Estrada's earned his spot in the rotation already and we'd already be pushing 1 guy back in Dickey.

The way I see it, the only way I want to push these guys up is if we're down 3-1, then I go with Price in 5 and Stroman in 6 with the ability to throw Price out of the pen in game 7 again if needed. Otherwise, everyone but Price (and he's Price so you give him his regular spot) pitched well enough against Texas that there's no need to really mess with the rotation unless times get desperate.

 

[Longshot]

Why is it Price can't pitch game one?

He pitched on Sunday. That gives him Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday as rest days.

Is that not normal rest for starting pitchers?

 

[Suntouchable13]

Why is it Price can't pitch game one?

He pitched on Sunday. That gives him Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday as rest days.

Is that not normal rest for starting pitchers?

Didn't he pitch on Thanksgiving Monday?

 

[Muston Atthews]

What distracted both the ump and Martin here ?

Maybe 2 strikes ... and a quick check to see if he went around ?
hmmm

EDIT: there were 2 strikes, but the batter didnt swing.

What are you on about now? The grassy knoll ?

 

[Sokil]

Well if they did say 'stop throwing stuff or there will be a forfeit' people would've stopped

Also this paragraph from the Grantland review pretty much 100% speaks to why I didn't even care that people threw stuff

Sure, throwing stuff onto the field isn’t going to accomplish anything, and when you consider how much it probably hurts to get hit on the head with a beer can thrown from the upper deck, it’s also more than a little unsafe. But despite being warned against it, and being aware of the futility and the danger of it — to say nothing of the fact that we’re conditioned from childhood not to literally throw things when we’re upset — hundreds or even thousands of fans threw things onto the field.

We’re supposed to have evolved beyond displays of incoherent rage. We’ve suppressed that instinct in ourselves and covered our world in rules to try to prevent that rage from bubbling to the surface, but from time to time, we’re confronted with an outside stimulus so bizarre, so unexpected, and so enraging that it seems like societal order shouldn’t allow it. But bizarre (and, frankly, unfair) as it seemed at the time, it happened anyway, and there was nothing anyone could do about it. Civilization failed us, and when civilization fails us, a civilized response just isn’t enough. It wasn’t right, or smart, to throw things, but it was the most human thing to do.

:applaud:

 

[rojac]

Why is it Price can't pitch game one?

He pitched on Sunday. That gives him Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday as rest days.

Is that not normal rest for starting pitchers?

Price pitched Monday.

 

[Longshot]

Didn't he pitch on Thanksgiving Monday?

Yeah, that's right. I was mixing up my games. My bad.

I was home watching during the afternoon and it felt like a Sunday.

 

[Bad News Benning]

Fans serenade jays bus on it's way to the airport.

https://instagram.com/p/83QIxsTZ5J/?taken-by=latroyhawkins32

"Where's the ****!?" lol. anyone know who said that?

 

[Eb]

I'm completely fine with Estrada starting on Friday. Think I would rather that actually and give Price the extra day.

 

[King Mapes]

Exactly.

If you can't hit the ball being pitched to you ... take another swipe at it as the catcher throws it back. Smart move ... just like Choo shrewdly did.

The correct call is to give Choo a warning for intentionally interfering with the ball and that further rule violations could result in his ejection.

So they should have made up their own rules?

Look they have to follow the rule book. He's in the batters box.

 

[Discoverer]

Where does it not say that ?

If batters mess around with throws back to the mound ... it messes everything up.

Pitchers throws
Catcher catches the ball.
The next play from here is the catcher has to throw the ball back.
The batter needs to *MOVE OUT OF THE WAY*.
He didn't.

The main problem here is the rule.
The rules need fixing.

The rule needs to be unintentional interference makes the ball dead.
The fact that there is no such rule is plain wrong.
This situation proved it.

My guess is that such a rule is implemented. But until then ... batters should practice advancing the runners via "unintentionally getting in the way" of the throw back to the mound.

I think it's odd there is no good rule for this situation. It must have happened many times. Especially with batters sticking their bat out oddly like that.

To me ... Choo purposefully put his arm out. It is his arm. His bat clearly interfered with the play. He was at fault. And next time he should get out of the way.

I don't think most of us even know what you're arguing anymore. What happened to issuing a warning to the batter for unsportsmanlike conduct?

It was unintentional and he stayed within the batter's box. Everyone but you can see that.

 

[Dough72]

"Where's the ****!?" lol. anyone know who said that?

I am sure you misheard, a jays player would never say that

must have been one of the catchers asking "where's the mitts"

 

[theaub]

I am sure you misheard, a jays player would never say that

must have been one of the catchers asking "where's the mitts"

five to? check my clock!

 

[TF97]

five to? check my clock!

Speaking of Mike Butcher. He was fired today.

 

[goleafsgo88]

pro

if u put price in game 1 u get the 3 start option OR 2 minimum starts + g7 out of the pen (since cecil is out and i don't trust loup in high leverage situations)

con

price is not known to be a short rest pitcher
price has also struggled in the postseason

conclusion

tough choice

 

[HamiltonNHL]

It really is a Rules problem.
It'll be interesting to see if MLB adds a new rule.
Clearly one is needed.

But that leaves the undeniably unfair situation.
What would I have done as an umpire ?

To me, it's not Martin's fault Choo left his bat there.
Choo interfered with the play ... with his bat.
It was intentional .. because it was his arm and his bat and he put the bat where it should not have been.
And under the rules he is out.

I think it was crafty of Martin to get the out by demonstrating he was interfering with play. Batters should be more aware of where their bat is and get out of the way of the play of the game.
To me, he was intentionally holding the play up with his bat where it should not have been.
Catchers are allowed to throw the ball back unobstructed as soon as they want.
If the batter is in the way ... tough luck for the batter.

What rule states that batters should be allowed to obstruct the catcher's required next move of throwing the ball back to the pitcher when the ball is live ?

Isn't baseball slow enough ? ... now catchers have to wait to throw the ball back because a cheeky batter is settling into the box *BEFORE* the catcher can throw the ball back ? The hitter messes up the order of play and it's the catcher's fault ?

FYI ... I think Martin lost grip of the ball and probably did screw up. I'd have to see how he normally throws the ball back to the pitcher to confirm that suspicion.

I think the Ump knew what was the fair outcome ... but there were no rules to support him.

I was just trying to figure out if it was possible to "FIX" the unfair situation within the rules. I don't think I accomplished that. However, I learned from the journey (ie. what I think is a fair rule change to rectify this problem).

 

[Eb]

Now you're saying Choo did it intentionally? After all of that there is no proof talk.

This is nuts,