Post-Game Talk: Winnipeg Jets win in season finale [asterisk]

[Whileee]

um yeah I can. Under Flaherty all of our goalies other than Helle regressed or stagnated. Pavelec never grew, never changed, never showed any significant development over his long tenure here....I place that on the coach. I'm not expecting miracles...but I'd like to have seen some form of development.

Even Helle had started to slide and changed his management and started to work with Adam Francilia at which point he began his accent to his perennial Veznia candidate status we have today...what more do I need to say?

If you are a coach and the very people you are responsible for coaching have to go pay out of pocket for another man to do your job.....What exactly is it that you bring to the table?

Hutch was a flash in the pan who I might add began to decline as he was working with Flats. Broissoit is Helle's training partner, another client of Adam Francilia .

So BOTH WINNIPEG GOALIES ARE PAYING PERSONAL MONEY FOR A PRIVATE GOALIE COACH.... not exactly a ringing endorsement of Flats.

I don't consider this the same as Schief using Roberts or Adam Oats....because the coaches and trainers are responsible for 20+ other players as well and cannot drill down on one guy to the extent maybe a guy like Schief wants/needs....Flats has what 4 guys at max to focus on in both teams and Two guys who who he's supposed to focus 80-90% on......

If I thought you had real knowledge about what the Jets goalie coaches do, or how they work with skills trainers, I'd be more interested in your theories. Plenty of goalies pay for personal coaching. Francilla also works with Dell, Reimer, Dubnyk and others.

Hellebuyck has said himself that Flaherty did a lot of work on improving his glove hand positioning, which was a big problem early in Hellebuyck's career. Here's an article. Hellebuyck's changes pay off in major way

Also, Francilla (Hellebuyck's goalie guru) has said specifically that Flaherty has an important role in Hellebuyck's development. Here are quotes from Francilla about Flaherty... Personal trainer's client list includes Winnipeg Jets Connor Hellebuyck and Laurent Brossoit

In Winnipeg, he's developed a strong personal and professional bond with Jets goaltending coach Wade Flaherty.
"It's always a continuation of what we work on, but the cool thing is Wade Flaherty is such a tremendous guy and coach and he's been so key for those guys," said Francilia.

"He doesn't get enough credit. He's taken a little bit of criticism but having gotten to know Flats, and just how he handles the person as well as the goaltender, he does not get enough credit. He's been so easy to collaborate with."

By the way, Francilla also worked for the San Jose Sharks in the past few years. Over the past 3 seasons...

Jets save % 0.914 (#3 in the NHL)
Sharks save % 0.898 (#29 in the NHL)

 

[Skidooboy]

If I thought you had real knowledge about what the Jets goalie coaches do, or how they work with skills trainers, I'd be more interested in your theories. Plenty of goalies pay for personal coaching. Francilla also works with Dell, Reimer, Dubnyk and others.

Hellebuyck has said himself that Flaherty did a lot of work on improving his glove hand positioning, which was a big problem early in Hellebuyck's career. Here's an article. Hellebuyck's changes pay off in major way

Also, Francilla (Hellebuyck's goalie guru) has said specifically that Flaherty has an important role in Hellebuyck's development. Here are quotes from Francilla about Flaherty... Personal trainer's client list includes Winnipeg Jets Connor Hellebuyck and Laurent Brossoit



By the way, Francilla also worked for the San Jose Sharks in the past few years. Over the past 3 seasons...

Jets save % 0.914 (#3 in the NHL)
Sharks save % 0.898 (#29 in the NHL)

I don't care what people read or say in the papers. Blahblahblah canned quotes and congratulatory glad-handing. No-one is going to say "Yeah, Wade is pretty ineffective and we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things so I went out and found a better guy" to the press.
Hell! If I listened to everything on TV or the newspapers I'd probably think Bittetto was a really god NHL defencman. Every night he's in the lineup Sawyer raves about him and his "calming veteran presence". Remember how Flaherty raved about Pavelec and his excellent play in his preseason interviews? or Pomo talked about how great Pavs played on a given night? Quotes and media stories mean less than nothing to me. The proof is in the play. Helle was starting to regress and then he changed his routine, hired a new "consultant" and suddenly he was better....... that's what the actual record shows. That same record shows a group of goalies with declining performance over their time spent under Flats.

Francilla's work with SanJose is a bit harder to dismiss...to my eye It looks like Jones is just a bad goalie who is at best an AHL type guy..or maybe he and Francilla don't mesh...

Are you a player or NHLer? Do you have some special insight into what Happens with NHL goalie coaches and their jobs? I'm seriously asking because for all I know you have excellent inside info I don't know about....I have no idea what or who you know...

I just go by what I see on the ice....I have no knowledge of Flats or his methods aside from that. What I saw on the ice was a string of goalies who couldn't get it done, never seemed to show any signs of development or improving and a lot of media talk about what a great job they and Flats were doing...........

 

[Whileee]

I don't care what people read or say in the papers. Blahblahblah canned quotes and congratulatory glad-handing. No-one is going to say "Yeah, Wade is pretty ineffective and we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things so I went out and found a better guy" to the press.
Hell! If I listened to everything on TV or the newspapers I'd probably think Bittetto was a really god NHL defencman. Every night he's in the lineup Sawyer raves about him and his "calming veteran presence". Remember how Flaherty raved about Pavelec and his excellent play in his preseason interviews? or Pomo talked about how great Pavs played on a given night? Quotes and media stories mean less than nothing to me. The proof is in the play. Helle was starting to regress and then he changed his routine, hired a new "consultant" and suddenly he was better....... that's what the actual record shows. That same record shows a group of goalies with declining performance over their time spent under Flats.

Francilla's work with SanJose is a bit harder to dismiss...to my eye It looks like Jones is just a bad goalie who is at best an AHL type guy..or maybe he and Francilla don't mesh...

Are you a player or NHLer? Do you have some special insight into what Happens with NHL goalie coaches and their jobs? I'm seriously asking because for all I know you have excellent inside info I don't know about....I have no idea what or who you know...

I just go by what I see on the ice....I have no knowledge of Flats or his methods aside from that. What I saw on the ice was a string of goalies who couldn't get it done, never seemed to show any signs of development or improving and a lot of media talk about what a great job they and Flats were doing...........

I'm sorry, but I find your arguments completely inconsistent. You claim that Francilla might not have succeeded with SJ because the goalies were bad, but blame Flaherty for Pavs, who was worse.

I guess you want to completely ignore the information that I cited about how Flaherty worked on Hellebuyck's glove hand, which was an obvious problem when he first got to the NHL, and improving that was an important key to his improved performance.

I don't claim to have any inside knowledge on the role of Flaherty or others. I'm going by what people involved actually say.

In the end, the Jets goalies have been top end over the past 3 seasons. I think that argues against the notion that the goalie coach deserves to be fired. Your arguments haven't persuaded me otherwise, and a bit more digging on my part has strengthened my view. Let's leave our discussion at that, shall we?

 

[Skidooboy]

I'm sorry, but I find your arguments completely inconsistent. You claim that Francilla might not have succeeded with SJ because the goalies were bad, but blame Flaherty for Pavs, who was worse.

I guess you want to completely ignore the information that I cited about how Flaherty worked on Hellebuyck's glove hand, which was an obvious problem when he first got to the NHL, and improving that was an important key to his improved performance.

I don't claim to have any inside knowledge on the role of Flaherty or others. I'm going by what people involved actually say.

In the end, the Jets goalies have been top end over the past 3 seasons. I think that argues against the notion that the goalie coach deserves to be fired. Your arguments haven't persuaded me otherwise, and a bit more digging on my part has strengthened my view. Let's leave our discussion at that, shall we?

I acknowledged that your SJ evidence was difficult to overlook.
A team I don’t follow don’t care about and don’t know a lot about. I can not address that with
Any kind of certainty.
I am totally unaware of the finer points of SJ and their goalie struggles. Maybe they have a crappy goalie coach as well.

But your argument is as confused as mine.
According to your argument Francilla has a net negative impact on goalies because of what happens in SJ. Yet he helps Helle??


What I can say, is that aside from Our current goalies I never saw any sign
of improvement from any of our goalies over a span of several years. In fact I saw regression and decline. A trend which Helle himself seemed to be on until he went out and hired Francilla.

Again I have no knowledge. Just what I see on the ice.

You don’t have an argument against that other than pointing to a team Francilla wasn’t successful with...and some media story. Member when
Evander Kane said in the papers he loved Winnipeg? Yeah athlete quotes in newspapers are infallible.

As I stated maybe the San Jose goalies don’t work well with Francilla, maybe the management views it is an outsider meddling and in there is strife between the various coaches and Francilla, maybe the goalies just not very good. Maybe he isn’t as driven to follow Francilla’s instructions and training regime...maybe he has a horrible performance anxiety and no one can help him I don’t know. I don’t care Could be any one if a thousand different scenarios.

As for Pavs.... is he worse or better than both of SJ’s tenders? I don’t really know how you compare... maybe if He’d had a better coach Pavs would be even worse than he was...who knows.

What I do know is that here in Winnipeg since 2011 season by season as I’ve watched all 82 games per year...... Flarity’s goalies all regressed under his tutelage. Including Helle. And since Helle started using Francilla as an advisor he’s gotten better.

 

[Whileee]

I acknowledged that your SJ evidence was difficult to overlook.
A team I don’t follow don’t care about and don’t know a lot about. I can not address that with
Any kind of certainty.
I am totally unaware of the finer points of SJ and their goalie struggles. Maybe they have a crappy goalie coach as well.

But your argument is as confused as mine.
According to your argument Francilla has a net negative impact on goalies because of what happens in SJ. Yet he helps Helle??


What I can say, is that aside from Our current goalies I never saw any sign
of improvement from any of our goalies over a span of several years. In fact I saw regression and decline. A trend which Helle himself seemed to be on until he went out and hired Francilla.

Again I have no knowledge. Just what I see on the ice.

You don’t have an argument against that other than pointing to a team Francilla wasn’t successful with...and some media story. Member when
Evander Kane said in the papers he loved Winnipeg? Yeah athlete quotes in newspapers are infallible.

As I stated maybe the San Jose goalies don’t work well with Francilla, maybe the management views it is an outsider meddling and in there is strife between the various coaches and Francilla, maybe the goalies just not very good. Maybe he isn’t as driven to follow Francilla’s instructions and training regime...maybe he has a horrible performance anxiety and no one can help him I don’t know. I don’t care Could be any one if a thousand different scenarios.

As for Pavs.... is he worse or better than both of SJ’s tenders? I don’t really know how you compare... maybe if He’d had a better coach Pavs would be even worse than he was...who knows.

What I do know is that here in Winnipeg since 2011 season by season as I’ve watched all 82 games per year...... Flarity’s goalies all regressed under his tutelage. Including Helle. And since Helle started using Francilla as an advisor he’s gotten better.

Helle improved, and Flaherty was credited with improving his glove hand. In watch the Jets, too, and that was a huge improvement.

You've still provided nothing to persuade me that indicates the goalie coach should be fired. Firing a goalie coach when your team has been #3 in the NHL in save % over the past 3 years is a strange suggestion.

I'm finished with this discussion, since we won't agree.

 

[bennylundholm]

Helle improved, and Flaherty was credited with improving his glove hand. In watch the Jets, too, and that was a huge improvement.

You've still provided nothing to persuade me that indicates the goalie coach should be fired. Firing a goalie coach when your team has been #3 in the NHL in save % over the past 3 years is a strange suggestion.

I'm finished with this discussion, since we won't agree.

entertaining

 

[Skidooboy]

Helle improved, and Flaherty was credited with improving his glove hand. In watch the Jets, too, and that was a huge improvement.

You've still provided nothing to persuade me that indicates the goalie coach should be fired. Firing a goalie coach when your team has been #3 in the NHL in save % over the past 3 years is a strange suggestion.

I'm finished with this discussion, since we won't agree.

Ok.... be done with the discussion.....


I still don’t understand what your argument is.



Flats maybe helped help bucky with his glove hand.....
But he has been unable to help all of the past jets goalies....so we have to only look at the last three years evidence as valid when our goaltending has been good.... ....even though our goalies in those three years have been seeing Francilla.....who is bad because he couldn’t help San Jose goalies...... And we have to ignore the previous seven years of his work...which looked pretty bad..... because Flarety is a great coach?


What?

 

[tntkid]

He doesn't go to Kelowna during the season.

In the past Hellebuyck did outsource training in BC.

Winnipeg Jets’ Hellebuyck, Brossoit make big strides in off-season Okanagan training camp

 

[John Agar]

Goalies are voodoo....

 

[tbcwpg]

In the past Hellebuyck did outsource training in BC.

Winnipeg Jets’ Hellebuyck, Brossoit make big strides in off-season Okanagan training camp

Yep, the offseason, between June and August. He's not going there during the season, yet still playing well. Or does coaching not matter as long as you have a good offseason training program?

 

[Jets 31]

The NHL and all sports for that matter .

 

[ps241]

Predictions are 30-60% of the world will experience Coronavirus, up to 70% on the high end. We are at the early stages of this pandemic. This will accelerate quickly. It will be an interesting test of many of our human inventions like our modern economic model, banking systems, supply chains which are not designed to be able to adapt to a rapid contraction in global commerce and economic activity. The current economic system is exceedingly flawed and rife with debt levels never seen before. Economic collapse to some level is not out of the question and should be expected to some level in my opinion.

the very big picture economically is interesting. How does it work when People just freeze otherwise healthy preforming businesses in place, shutter them, quit paying rent, the bank, any vendors, staff, and just unthaws them 3 or 4 months from now and picks up where They left off today. Many Individuals most likely can’t pay their mortgages and car payments etc?

I am sure France and Italy are working through this so our governments in North America will have working models to study.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

And if there's one person we want to be in charge of firing people, it's the person who doesn't even know what they do.

Wade Flaherty's sin, it seems, is that when the Jets didn't have good goalies...their goalies weren't good.

I confess, at 1 point I wanted to see Flaherty fired. That was simply out of desperation.

Now, it is not so much that he has been rehabilitated as it is that we have good goaltending. Whether any credit goes to him or not doesn't matter. There is no reason to fire him. It looks like there never was.