Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

voyageur

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Somehow this board is becoming defined by stan vs heinola... its insane.
It started as Connor vs. Ehlers, lest we forget. Halfway through the season it's picking apart the reason why the 2nd line can't outscore the 3rd line.

Stanley vs. Heinola has been more silent of late. Hard to say Stan isn't playing better than Heinola.

What happens if Miller is out for awhile? Still no word? When Samberg and Fleury come back, does it become Stanley-Fleury, since Fleury is a better PKer than Stan? And Heinola? Or is Coghlan in the mix now, if Miller is out? A lot of folks like his game, and he's had one on his natural side this year.
 
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Adam da bomb

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I'd also point out some posters, especially one in particular, keeps exploiting this, constantly changing positions, gaining undeserved equity playing one group off the other.

I'm okay with people's opinions evolving, but it's okay to dig in a little, for an extended period too..
And the majority of your posts are just about complaining about me.
 

WolfHouse

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Oct 4, 2020
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It started as Connor vs. Ehlers, lest we forget. Halfway through the season it's picking apart the reason why the 2nd line can't outscore the 3rd line.

Stanley vs. Heinola has been more silent of late. Hard to say Stan isn't playing better than Heinola.

What happens if Miller is out for awhile? Still no word? When Samberg and Fleury come back, does it become Stanley-Fleury, since Fleury is a better PKer than Stan? And Heinola? Or is Coghlan in the mix now, if Miller is out? A lot of folks like his game, and he's had one on his natural side this year.
I dont remember kfc v ehlers at all this season... mostly just griping about advanced stats versus eye test haha
 
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gojetsgo

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was hoping samberg would be back tomorrow night but since we didn't practice the past 2 days I doubt it's happening
 

voyageur

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Still no word on Miller? That was a scary incident and you can see players caught between watching the play on the ice and what's happening in the tunnel. Arniel's reaction was shock, 2 in one game.

I hope Colin Miller is ok, he's been solid all year. I had my larynx fractured, I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
 

gojetsgo

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Still no word on Miller? That was a scary incident and you can see players caught between watching the play on the ice and what's happening in the tunnel. Arniel's reaction was shock, 2 in one game.

I hope Colin Miller is ok, he's been solid all year. I had my larynx fractured, I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
will find out more at the morning skate, they took b2b days off
 

Crocket

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Jul 14, 2013
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Im on team 'this d core needs at least 2 additions'.

That's with Samberg coming back to his top 4 role.

A top pair RH d and a bottom pair LH d (who is physical AND capable).

Morrissey - new RH D
Samberg - Pionk
new LH D - DeMelo
Fluery can play that 3L spot. But agreed we need to replace DeMelo. I'd rather have Miller, Coghlan or Sallomonson out there on 3Rd then DeMelo. We need some grit for the playoffs up front too.

Teams can just crush out small defense with a heavy forecheck like the avs did.

Morrissey New guy
Samberg Pionk
Fluery Bauer
 

mogambomoroo

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Sharks fan coming with friendly intentions.
How valuable do Jets fans see Neal Pionk cap space wise? How long of a term do you see him getting in Winnipeg if he re-signs?
I'm not sure if he makes it to Free Agency, but there is a lot of teams probably interested.
 
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Jet

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Ville Heinola knows what he has to do to maintain his spot on the Jets roster…
-KEN WIEBE
VILLE Heinola realizes his stat line is rather inconspicuous. Although the sample size is relatively small with only 12 games played this season, Heinola knows the heat is on for him to do more as the jockeying for position on the Winnipeg Jets defensive depth chart continues.
"I don't have any points or anything, so now I feel like I have to start doing something (offensively) if I want to play and want to stay in the lineup," said Heinola. "But the first thing for me is taking care of the D-zone."
Heinola has been taking care of that part of the equation, as he's been on the ice for six goals for and just one against during five-on-five since he returned from an ankle issue that emerged on the first day of training camp in September.
After missing nearly half of last season, being sidelined right out of the gate wasn't exactly a recipe for success for someone trying to establish himself as an NHL regular. Heinola worked hard during rehab and is finally starting to feel like himself again.
"The body feels better every day. It finally feels like I'm finally getting the game shape back and the legs underneath me," said Heinola. "I didn't even play since last May, so it takes a little time to get used to all of the things and the biggest thing for me is that when I do stuff on the ice, I don't have to think about it. It comes naturally and the last couple of games it's been better. But I feel like inside of me there's a lot more that I can give. I just have to find ways to produce more. You have to be patient with it."
After the Jets held an optional workout Friday, assistant coach Dean Chynoweth was asked about patience and how much of it is required when it comes to expectations for a prospect such as Heinola, who was chosen 20th overall in the 2019 NHL Draft.
"Wow, that's a good question," said Chynoweth, who runs the defence. "I would say that every team goes through injuries like this, so depending on the depth of your minor league team ... We're in a situation where we have veteran NHL players that are the depth guys, so that made that transition probably easier, to bring those guys in and out that have NHL experience, than bringing up a young guy from the Moose that hasn't played yet or is just starting out with it. But patience, that's your call. I've got lots of patience."
The same hasn't been said for the fan base when it comes to Heinola's development.
Because he made the Jets unexpectedly out of training camp in the fall of 2019 as an 18 year old and suited up for eight NHL games before he was sent to the Manitoba Moose and eventually returned to play the rest of the season in Finland, Heinola's timeline got skewed.
Then the combination of the pandemic and the original ankle injury he suffered in the final pre-season game in 2023 set things back further.
Although he's still only 23 years old, it feels like Heinola should have established himself as an NHL regular by now.
That's not really relevant to how this chapter of the story will unfold.
Even with Dylan Samberg (broken foot) and Haydn Fleury (lower body) sidelined with injuries, Heinola is trying to show he deserves more ice time and to be in the lineup regularly.
"I know my role on the third pairing. We don't want to get scored on," said Heinola, who has 47 games of NHL experience on his resume. "We'll try to help as much as we can on the offensive side of things. You just have to make the right reads, as to when to play offence and when to maybe not jump or take the extra risk. You just have to know when is the right time to do that."
This isn't an easy balance to strike for any defenceman, especially an offensive one who has thrived on the power play at previous levels, but isn't seeing any special-teams duty now.
"It's hard. If you do too much, it's probably going to cost you," said Heinola. "When you know you can do it, it's a green light to do it. It's just finding the right time to do it and that's probably the learning experience for me."
No doubt that learning will continue, though Heinola knows there's a level of urgency attached to his situation when you consider Samberg is inching closer to returning to the lineup. Once that happens, there's one fewer spot in the regular rotation available to him.
"When you're injured as a young guy, you lose that development time, and you've got to find a way to get it back," said Chynoweth. "We have to do a good job in trying to prepare him and get him ready for those situations. So he's been in and out at different times. There's been stretches that have been good, and other stretches where I'm sure he'd like to be better. But that's part of the learning process, especially when you miss that amount of time."
When it comes to trying to make up for lost time, Dylan Coghlan did a great job of jumping back into the Jets' lineup earlier this week when he suited up in consecutive NHL games for the first time this season.
"I honestly felt like my game was right where it needed to be and I'm trying to show (coach Arniel) that I can do it every night," said Coghlan. "I just trust myself and trust the people around me. That's huge too, to be able to trust your teammates and having them know that I'm going to make that play and me knowing that they're going to be in the right area for me to be able to make the play."
Good to see the kid has awareness of his situation and what he needs to do, and is starting to feel better.

It's easy to forget just how much hockey he has missed and how a serious lower leg injury can really derail your training and development.

My gut still tells me that the Jets isn't the place he's going to find his game - but I am still crossing my fingers that it happens.
 
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Jet

I stan for Stan
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Still no word on Miller? That was a scary incident and you can see players caught between watching the play on the ice and what's happening in the tunnel. Arniel's reaction was shock, 2 in one game.

I hope Colin Miller is ok, he's been solid all year. I had my larynx fractured, I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
Hey! we're larynx fracture buddies!

Sharks fan coming with friendly intentions.
How valuable do Jets fans see Neal Pionk cap space wise? How long of a term do you see him getting in Winnipeg if he re-signs?
I'm not sure if he makes it to Free Agency, but there is a lot of teams probably interested.
I think both the Jets and Pionk are happy with each other, and I feel like he will likely be re-signed.

Most longer term Jets re-sign if the team is interested.

I think he will get a modest raise, something like 6.5X6, though I do think he could get more on the open market.
 
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voyageur

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Going to need him against L.A and Colorado.

Probably rushed a little more because of standings and opponents, combined with Miller injury.

But you read that Athletic article you can tell he and Pionk are tough hockey players.
 
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Mortimer Snerd

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I'd also point out some posters, especially one in particular, keeps exploiting this, constantly changing positions, gaining undeserved equity playing one group off the other.

I'm okay with people's opinions evolving, but it's okay to dig in a little, for an extended period too.

People's opinions evolve. So do players performances. The controversy around the Scheif & KC combination is a good example. That pair has markedly improved their play this year so the controversy has died.

If they had simply started scoring more without addressing the weaknesses in their games the controversy would have continued. It was not about their ability to score. It was the off-setting GA that were the problem. And that is what they have improved on. So people's positions have changed but not because their opinions changed. It was the inputs that changed.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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What does this equity actually get them. I have been on team Connor since 2018 if you look at my earlier posts. I am also in team Stanley over Heinola in case my official position needs to be stated. Also, fine with Fleury coming over Stan, but, not Heinola coming in over Stan.

I can understand Stan over Heinola but I wonder why you are so firm in that position? Heinola can't provide what Stan brings but OTOH, Stan can't provide what Heini brings. Stan is pretty much a known quantity. He may still improve a bit here and there, but basically he is what he will be. Heini still has quite a lot of potential to improve.

Heinola has actually been pretty good defensively. Not great, but probably quite a bit better than some here have expected. What if he starts to add offense to that? How much does he need to add, how much does he need to improve to bump Stan in your opinion?
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Somehow this board is becoming defined by stan vs heinola... its insane.

Is it really?

I see it more as Stan vs somebody better. That could be Heinola, or Fleury, or someone else.

The Stan supporters like his size, his occasional physicality and his willingness to drop the gloves. So to satisfy that segment the someone else needs to have more of those attributes than either Heini or Fleury. Heinola would need to start scoring quite a bit to overcome his physicality deficiencies. Fleury has the size. He would need to start using it quite a bit more to satisfy the Stan supporters. If he would do that he has enough of an edge everywhere else that he could be that guy. Probably not likely though if he hasn't done that by this stage of his career.

The alternative is someone else altogether. We don't have that someone in the system. Drafting him would take too long. So we need to sign an FA or trade for someone. A competent 3rd pair D with a little physicality shouldn't be so hard to acquire.
 

Adam da bomb

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I can understand Stan over Heinola but I wonder why you are so firm in that position? Heinola can't provide what Stan brings but OTOH, Stan can't provide what Heini brings. Stan is pretty much a known quantity. He may still improve a bit here and there, but basically he is what he will be. Heini still has quite a lot of potential to improve.

Heinola has actually been pretty good defensively. Not great, but probably quite a bit better than some here have expected. What if he starts to add offense to that? How much does he need to add, how much does he need to improve to bump Stan in your opinion?
I wrote out a whole long thing which got deleted when i had to refresh screen.

I think Heinola needs a lot of games to reach that potential. Team is not interested in giving him those games. They are more interested in winning now. As things stand Heinola just has potential and in my mind is weaker than the 4 defensively. The other 4 includes Cog.

We say old dogs can't learn new tricks. Kc learnt to play D.
Stan learnt to stop taking so many penalties. I have seen more offense out of Stan than I have from Heinola. He set up Villardi's goal. He came down and hit a cross bar. What offense have we seen from Heinola.
I think ive seen more of what Heinola is supposed to bring from Stan than what Stan does from Heinola. We haven't seen this offense from Stan in the past. New wrinkle.
 

BarnabyJones PI

I'd kindly settle for a tall glass of milk.
People's opinions evolve. So do players performances. The controversy around the Scheif & KC combination is a good example. That pair has markedly improved their play this year so the controversy has died.

If they had simply started scoring more without addressing the weaknesses in their games the controversy would have continued. It was not about their ability to score. It was the off-setting GA that were the problem. And that is what they have improved on. So people's positions have changed but not because their opinions changed. It was the inputs that changed.

Sure, I agree.

I'm all for evolving opinion, or stances. Where's the personal growth if you don't question yourself, and be open to difference of opinion?

I'm talking about people who constantly change their opinions faster than the wind changes direction. You can't evolve moment by moment. A person posts one thing in a thread, and moments later, in a separate thread, completely contradicts what they had just said. And does this repeatedly.

I don't equate you with a person that's acting like they're in perpetual free-agency, getting all of the perks, but never committing to anything.
 
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Mortimer Snerd

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It started as Connor vs. Ehlers, lest we forget. Halfway through the season it's picking apart the reason why the 2nd line can't outscore the 3rd line.

Stanley vs. Heinola has been more silent of late. Hard to say Stan isn't playing better than Heinola.

What happens if Miller is out for awhile? Still no word? When Samberg and Fleury come back, does it become Stanley-Fleury, since Fleury is a better PKer than Stan? And Heinola? Or is Coghlan in the mix now, if Miller is out? A lot of folks like his game, and he's had one on his natural side this year.

There will always be these supporters of one player over another.

Coghlan has looked pretty good in his very limited play. As long as Miller is out I would like to see more of him.
 
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WolfHouse

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Is it really?

I see it more as Stan vs somebody better. That could be Heinola, or Fleury, or someone else.

The Stan supporters like his size, his occasional physicality and his willingness to drop the gloves. So to satisfy that segment the someone else needs to have more of those attributes than either Heini or Fleury. Heinola would need to start scoring quite a bit to overcome his physicality deficiencies. Fleury has the size. He would need to start using it quite a bit more to satisfy the Stan supporters. If he would do that he has enough of an edge everywhere else that he could be that guy. Probably not likely though if he hasn't done that by this stage of his career.

The alternative is someone else altogether. We don't have that someone in the system. Drafting him would take too long. So we need to sign an FA or trade for someone. A competent 3rd pair D with a little physicality shouldn't be so hard to acquire.
Lets put it this way.... im 'pretty sure' that we reunite samberg-pionk but not 100% that arniel doesnt keep stan up there... thats the main issue i have with stan - its the irrational amount of chances he gets for the payoff. Someone in the org wagered their career on that pick for sure...

Now if you say anything negative ie. True about stan you are portrayed as being in the heinola camp.... its been a strange evolution
 
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voyageur

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I wrote out a whole long thing which got deleted when i had to refresh screen.

I think Heinola needs a lot of games to reach that potential. Team is not interested in giving him those games. They are more interested in winning now. As things stand Heinola just has potential and in my mind is weaker than the 4 defensively. The other 4 includes Cog.

We say old dogs can't learn new tricks. Kc learnt to play D.
Stan learnt to stop taking so many penalties. I have seen more offense out of Stan than I have from Heinola. He set up Villardi's goal. He came down and hit a cross bar. What offense have we seen from Heinola.
I think ive seen more of what Heinola is supposed to bring from Stan than what Stan does from Heinola. We haven't seen this offense from Stan in the past. New wrinkle.

He did score 2 goals against Carey Price in one game in the playoffs. Clean shots. He's had that shot for awhile. Getting it on net is an asset, especially when you get to the playoffs, looking for that tip ot bounce. Has the outlet passing working for him. Can deliver a punishing hit to create separation. But the issue with Stan is always skating.

Even if he delivers positive 5 on 5 results the skating will be an issue for fans that don't like him.
 

Adam da bomb

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He did score 2 goals against Carey Price in one game in the playoffs. Clean shots. He's had that shot for awhile. Getting it on net is an asset, especially when you get to the playoffs, looking for that tip ot bounce. Has the outlet passing working for him. Can deliver a punishing hit to create separation. But the issue with Stan is always skating.

Even if he delivers positive 5 on 5 results the skating will be an issue for fans that don't like him.
Another reason I like him is I’m a lumbering slow skater. Obviously I’d prefer a guy with a similar game who does it well.
 

WolfHouse

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He did score 2 goals against Carey Price in one game in the playoffs. Clean shots. He's had that shot for awhile. Getting it on net is an asset, especially when you get to the playoffs, looking for that tip ot bounce. Has the outlet passing working for him. Can deliver a punishing hit to create separation. But the issue with Stan is always skating.

Even if he delivers positive 5 on 5 results the skating will be an issue for fans that don't like him.
Its just so weird how one camp frames all critique of stan as 'fans that dont like him'

You look at things this season - yes stan has improved and thats great - but all the things he does - hard shot, pk, body checking - miller performs better and yet hes not on our main pk

We are now calling stan a success because he has become mark stuart... instead of sergei bautin
 

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