Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[Teemusalami204]

Poolman is closing in on josh.

 

[Jet]

Well you are entitled to your opinion, because it's a forum, but I think that's probably more conjecture than truth. He's definitely going through a cold spell though, I'm not going to deny this.

This is precisely the type of post that I take issue with. Beaulieu is probably best served as a PB injury replacement or a bottom pair guy but he's not complete and utter garbage.

 

[Whileee]

This is precisely the type of post that I take issue with. Beaulieu is probably best served as a PB injury replacement or a bottom pair guy but he's not complete and utter garbage.

I think Beaulieu is just a replacement level D, and the Jets have young D as good or better right now.

 

[voyageur]

This is precisely the type of post that I take issue with. Beaulieu is probably best served as a PB injury replacement or a bottom pair guy but he's not complete and utter garbage.

As someone who plays hockey, and understands the game, I always respect your opinion Jet. I'm on your side with this one. I think he is playing his way into the pressbox due to performance, but I'm quite happy to have this kind of player on the team. His PK metrics are still good, probably above average right now. 5 on 5 I think he is struggling, and I almost wonder if there isn't some lingering symptoms from his fights, because he just seems off. When he is on, he's a pretty decent open ice skater, with good gap control. First pass is usually not a turnover. Beaulieu's knock has always been consistency, and where one player falters, it's another player's opportunity, and right now we have some good options to replace him in the lineup, if management chooses to.

 

[Teemusalami204]

I wouldn’t be surprised if we don’t see samburb or henola until next year. Having both of their elcs end and up for new contracts the offseason before the wheeler, helly and sheif contracts end. This year will be the strongest team and should be going for a cup. Can’t afford thinning of the roster

 

[Romang67]

Utter and complete garbage?

There is a case to be made that Beaulieu has been the worst regular D-man on his team for now 4 seasons running, and those teams were the awful 17/18 Sabres, the awful 18/19 Sabres, the defensively awful 19/20 Jets, and the defensively awful 20/21 Jets. On a team with a strong D, e.g. the 2018 Jets, he's probably a #9-10 D-man. If he were, as probably should be the case, 8th or 9th on our depth chart with everyone healthy, that'd be fine.

Utter and complete garbage is relative, I suppose. He's better at hockey than most AHL D-men. But I doubt he's better than at most a handful of regular NHL D-men.

Well you are entitled to your opinion, because it's a forum, but I think that's probably more conjecture than truth. He's definitely going through a cold spell though, I'm not going to deny this.

Define cold spell. Beaulieu's being a bad NHL D-man isn't new. He was bad last season, he was bad for the Sabres before we acquired him, and given that the Sabres got him for a 3rd round pick from the Canadiens, I'm going to guess that the Habs weren't overly impressed with him either. But even if they were, that "cold spell" is on its 4th season now.

 

[voyageur]

I wouldn’t be surprised if we don’t see samburb or henola until next year. Having both of their elcs end and up for new contracts the offseason before the wheeler, helly and sheif contracts end. This year will be the strongest team and should be going for a cup. Can’t afford thinning of the roster

I think it's going to be this year for Samberg. The challenge is to get him up to playing speed, and playing in game situations that he will be called upon as a pro. Samberg's ELC and Heinola's are different because Samberg is already 22, whereas the Jets can play 19 year old Heinola the whole year on the Moose, get him in for only 6 games on the Jets, and still have a 20 year old rookie, poised to get to the next level next year. Sliding his ELC would coincide with all the big contracts coming off the books, and if he is the real deal like we expect, the Jets will have the financial manoeuvring to sign him to a long term contract right out of it, instead of going the bridge route, which could lead him to free agency sooner.

 

[BoneDocUK]

Also there is the fact that he's been a part of this team, and is well respected by teammates, and building a team is a process of integrating individuals. Then there is the expansion draft, where he will not be protected. Then there is the fact he is doing well on the PK. If we waived Niku, would anyone touch him?

I get all that, but how badly do you have to play in order to get benched? I mean, wouldn't all those guys who respect Beaulieu also be a little pissed at his ongoing brutal play? Wouldn't there be a point at which the team makes the call to be better rather than kinder? I get that Beaulieu isn't optimized as a top-pair guy but in a team without top-pair guys, don't you want your 6 decent players to be the most decent?

IDK, but it's frustrating to watch a performance like last night's and come away without wondering what the hell we're trying to do back there.

 

[voyageur]

There is a case to be made that Beaulieu has been the worst regular D-man on his team for now 4 seasons running, and those teams were the awful 17/18 Sabres, the awful 18/19 Sabres, the defensively awful 19/20 Jets, and the defensively awful 20/21 Jets. On a team with a strong D, e.g. the 2018 Jets, he's probably a #9-10 D-man. If he were, as probably should be the case, 8th or 9th on our depth chart with everyone healthy, that'd be fine.

Utter and complete garbage is relative, I suppose. He's better at hockey than most AHL D-men. But I doubt he's better than at most a handful of NHL D-men.


Define cold spell. Beaulieu being a bad NHL D-man isn't new. He was bad last season, he was bad for the Sabres before we acquired him, and given that the Sabres got him for a 3rd round pick from the Canadiens, I'm going to guess that the Habs weren't overly impressed with him either. But even if they were, that "cold spell" is on its 4th season now.

What about last year's +15, or the fact that he is 3rd on the team right now in PK metrics for guys taking regular reps, well ahead of Pionk and Morrissey. I think you have a narrative you want to run, and that's fine. We'll disagree about this player.

Montreal ruined his development, because one they never send promising young players to the minors, second JJ Daigneault was not a very good d-coach. His experience under Housley in Buffalo saw a lot of other good defensemen fall out of favour. One of them went on to win the Cup last year, a player who is actually quite similar to Beaulieu in terms of playing style.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

What about last year's +15, or the fact that he is 3rd on the team right now in PK metrics for guys taking regular reps, well ahead of Pionk and Morrissey. I think you have a narrative you want to run, and that's fine. We'll disagree about this player.

Montreal ruined his development, because one they never send promising young players to the minors, second JJ Daigneault was not a very good d-coach. His experience under Housley in Buffalo saw a lot of other good defensemen fall out of favour. One of them went on to win the Cup last year, a player who is actually quite similar to Beaulieu in terms of playing style.

I think Beaulieu is the "worst" D man 5v5 for the Jets right now. I think he is good on the PP because it suits his playstyle of blocking shots and shooting the puck out instead of making a pass. I also think that playstyle isn't as effective as it once was.

I don't mind him as 5/6 guy playing the PK. I don't mind him when they manage his ice time like they have been lately.

 

[Romang67]

What about last year's +15, or the fact that he is 3rd on the team right now in PK metrics for guys taking regular reps, well ahead of Pionk and Morrissey. I think you have a narrative you want to run, and that's fine. We'll disagree about this player.

Montreal ruined his development, because one they never send promising young players to the minors, second JJ Daigneault was not a very good d-coach. His experience under Housley in Buffalo saw a lot of other good defensemen fall out of favour. One of them went on to win the Cup last year, a player who is actually quite similar to Beaulieu in terms of playing style.

+/- over a season doesn't tell you much on the best of days. In a season where the team was saved by a ridiculously hot goalie it tells you even less. The sample you're looking at for PKing is so small right now that the he would drop like 4-5 spots in the metrics (I assume you mean GA/60) if the Jets allow a goal on the PK with him on the ice next game. He wasn't among our better PKers last season, and unless you think that he suddenly improved in that area at age 28, I don't think it's a particularly strong argument for his being worth keeping around just for his PK acumen.

I don't need to "run a narrative" for Beaulieu. My eye test says that he's bad, the fact that he's a depth D-man at best on some of the worst D-cores over the past few years reinforce that idea, and the numbers back it up. I don't need to go pick and choose numbers because his numbers are almost invariably bad. If we had a 22 man roster, or D-men who could shoulder a load where Beaulieu can be as sheltered as Stanley 5v5, there could be an argument that we could make him our adequate PK specialist. We don't. Sheltering Beaulieu with our current roster means that someone is playing minutes they shouldn't be. And most of the game is played 5v5, which Beaulieu is provably bad at.

I don't really know what you're trying to say with the Habs claim. It's possible that the Habs ruined him. I don't really care if the Habs ruined him or not. I care about whether he's likely to improve our pitiful defense. But for what it's worth, he spent almost 2 full seasons with the Habs' AHL team before becoming a regular NHL starter. As for the Bogosian comment, he did indeed make it to the Stanley Cup as a #6 D-man. And Bogosian showed that he was significantly better than Beaulieu while they were at the same team, reinforcing the idea that Beaulieu likely should be 8th-10th on the depth chart on a good team.

 

[Jet]

I think Beaulieu is the "worst" D man 5v5 for the Jets right now. I think he is good on the PP because it suits his playstyle of blocking shots and shooting the puck out instead of making a pass. I also think that playstyle isn't as effective as it once was.

I don't mind him as 5/6 guy playing the PK. I don't mind him when they manage his ice time like they have been lately.

See - to me, that is a very fair and agreeable assessment. That's all I'm looking for.

 

[Ducky10]

Poolman is closing in on josh.

Another scorching take....

 

[Ducky10]

The emotional reasoning is strong in this thread

 

[MardyBum]

Oooof.



"At least we're not Vancouver!"

 

[Ducky10]

The only reason to keep Boo Boo is the XD, that’s it, no other reason, not PK, not depth, nothing.

 

[Teemusalami204]

Another scorching take....

Not to far fetched,

 

[Daximus]

Poolman is closing in on josh.

I think it's more like Josh is playing down to Poolman.

 

[Teemusalami204]

I think it's more like Josh is playing down to Poolman.

Meeting in the middle, let’s give poolman some credit lol

 

[voyageur]

+/- over a season doesn't tell you much on the best of days. In a season where the team was saved by a ridiculously hot goalie it tells you even less. The sample you're looking at for PKing is so small right now that the he would drop like 4-5 spots in the metrics (I assume you mean GA/60) if the Jets allow a goal on the PK with him on the ice next game. He wasn't among our better PKers last season, and unless you think that he suddenly improved in that area at age 28, I don't think it's a particularly strong argument for his being worth keeping around just for his PK acumen.

I don't need to "run a narrative" for Beaulieu. My eye test says that he's bad, the fact that he's a depth D-man at best on some of the worst D-cores over the past few years reinforce that idea, and the numbers back it up. I don't need to go pick and choose numbers because his numbers are almost invariably bad. If we had a 22 man roster, or D-men who could shoulder a load where Beaulieu can be as sheltered as Stanley 5v5, there could be an argument that we could make him our adequate PK specialist. We don't. Sheltering Beaulieu with our current roster means that someone is playing minutes they shouldn't be. And most of the game is played 5v5, which Beaulieu is provably bad at.

I don't really know what you're trying to say with the Habs claim. It's possible that the Habs ruined him. I don't really care if the Habs ruined him or not. I care about whether he's likely to improve our pitiful defense. But for what it's worth, he spent almost 2 full seasons with the Habs' AHL team before becoming a regular NHL starter. As for the Bogosian comment, he did indeed make it to the Stanley Cup as a #6 D-man. And Bogosian showed that he was significantly better than Beaulieu while they were at the same team, reinforcing the idea that Beaulieu likely should be 8th-10th on the depth chart on a good team.

Actually you corrected me well. I didn't realize that BooBoo spent so much time in the minors with the Habs, so my old memory served me wrong. I just remember he was a promising prospect right up until they acquired Weber, and he couldn't seize the top 4 job he was expected to. With Buffalo he played behind Mc Cabe and Scandella who are better players, Bogosian was still a top 4 RD man in the rotation. though Gorges was in the mix on both sides. When Dahlin was drafted, Beaulieu fell off the depth charts. Only when the Sabres acquired Montour and Jokiharju did Bogo fall off. They actually have pretty similar career path.

As for +/- last year, you can call it luck, but no one else was that lucky. And there's always the danger of measuring a player on shots against vs. goals against, and take 31 coaches I'm pretty sure which measurement they'll use. As for the PK, he's not bad at it. The team was terrible in general last year, and he was in that mediocre range. This year he has been better, in that aspect. Saying it's possible he could be worse, is speculative, because he's been steadily improving in that department. Regardless it's a moot discussion. I'm all for someone getting ahead of Beaulieu in the lineup if they deserve it. I'd say Stanley is on that path, and we'd be better off in turn with Beaulieu in the 7 spot, who's had some success with players on this roster (Stanley for one) as opposed to Niku, who's potential has not equated to results. Which is the worst place to be as a young player. Once we clear Niku, we could conceivably make room for Samberg, and then it's up to him to earn his stripes, and if he is good enough he'll knock both Stanley and Boo Boo out of the lineup permanently.

 

[Romang67]

Actually you corrected me well. I didn't realize that BooBoo spent so much time in the minors with the Habs, so my old memory served me wrong. I just remember he was a promising prospect right up until they acquired Weber, and he couldn't seize the top 4 job he was expected to. With Buffalo he played behind Mc Cabe and Scandella who are better players, Bogosian was still a top 4 RD man in the rotation. though Gorges was in the mix on both sides. When Dahlin was drafted, Beaulieu fell off the depth charts. Only when the Sabres acquired Montour and Jokiharju did Bogo fall off. They actually have pretty similar career path.

As for +/- last year, you can call it luck, but no one else was that lucky. And there's always the danger of measuring a player on shots against vs. goals against, and take 31 coaches I'm pretty sure which measurement they'll use. As for the PK, he's not bad at it. The team was terrible in general last year, and he was in that mediocre range. This year he has been better, in that aspect. Saying it's possible he could be worse, is speculative, because he's been steadily improving in that department Regardless it's a moot discussion. I'm all for someone getting ahead of Beaulieu in the lineup if they deserve it. I'd say Stanley is on that path, and we'd better off in turn with Beaulieu in the 7 spot, who's had some success with players on this roster (Stanley for one) as opposed to Niku, who's potential has not equated to results. Which is the worst place to be as a young player. Once we clear Niku, we could conceivably make room for Samberg, and then it's up to him to earn his stripes, and if he is good enough he'll knock both Stanley and Boo Boo out of the lineup permanently.

That's why it was luck.

But I agree, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Beaulieu.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

See - to me, that is a very fair and agreeable assessment. That's all I'm looking for.

All your looking for is someone to completely agree with you.

Beaulieu is garbage. Can he be a #7 who steps in for injuries? Sure, but he does not deserve a regular shift in the NHL and having him block guys like Stanley/Samberg/Heinola from playing is malpractice by coaching.

 

[bumblebeeman]

I think Beaulieu is the "worst" D man 5v5 for the Jets right now. I think he is good on the PP because it suits his playstyle of blocking shots and shooting the puck out instead of making a pass. I also think that playstyle isn't as effective as it once was.

I don't mind him as 5/6 guy playing the PK. I don't mind him when they manage his ice time like they have been lately.

I agree with this. Beaulieu isn't the problem, it's the lack of #1RD and #2LD. Poolman and Forbort are doing ok. but it's hard for me to imagine the Jets being a real contender with both of them in the top 4

 

[Gm0ney]

I think I'd define cold spell as what DeMelo's been going through. He has a track record as a decent defenseman and he's not looked great for 11 games = cold spell. Beaulieu's cold spell is more like an ice age...

 

[Atoyot]

Oooof.



"At least we're not Vancouver!"

That about matches what I'm seeing, yeah.