Will Atlanta Get Another Team?

[StreetHawk]

I mean, sure, but that really isn't good or smart for anyone.

The main reason Atlanta remains an attractive possibility is TV MARKET SIZE.
And this would be attempt three at putting down roots in Atlanta. If the NHL does it, it has to work.

And putting the team in the Western Conference is a detriment on the TV side of things. If you want people in Atlanta to watch NHL hockey on TV, road Western Conference games isn't a good way to do it. And neither is "you finally made the playoffs, you open against a Pacific Division Team at 10 pm"


I view it going one of two ways:

1. If the NHL is committed to East/West conferences, they're not going to pursue an unbalanced league that forces an ETZ team into the Western Conference.
2. If the NHL is looking to expand to grab fees and get TV markets and care more about which city they go to than how many teams they have, then they should blow up the concept of West/East Conferences

I think Canadian fans would be happy with an all Canadian division but would require a team in Quebec or another in southern Ontario.

Houston and Atl are the 2 big US markets that the nhl would want to be in. But to add those 2 brings them to 34. 7 current CAD teams so if you get to 36 then you are doing what 4 divisions of 9 or 6 divisions of 6?

would the nhl go Quebec, Toronto, Houston and Atlanta to get to 36?

seriously, we are a decade IMO of seeing another expansion process again.

NHL team can’t survive like the sixers and Celtics can being tenants in ATL to the NBA team who has the arena management agreement. Not enough TV money for them. Nba team would only let an nhl team owned by another entity get revenue from just nhl games and nothing from non hockey events.

 

[KevFu]

I think Canadian fans would be happy with an all Canadian division but would require a team in Quebec or another in southern Ontario.

Houston and Atl are the 2 big US markets that the nhl would want to be in. But to add those 2 brings them to 34. 7 current CAD teams so if you get to 36 then you are doing what 4 divisions of 9 or 6 divisions of 6?

would the nhl go Quebec, Toronto, Houston and Atlanta to get to 36?

seriously, we are a decade IMO of seeing another expansion process again.

NHL team can’t survive like the sixers and Celtics can being tenants in ATL to the NBA team who has the arena management agreement. Not enough TV money for them. Nba team would only let an nhl team owned by another entity get revenue from just nhl games and nothing from non hockey events.

The PRO side of things for a Canadian Division is that the match-ups drive TV, since TOR at VAN has two Canadian teams playing each other, national TV gets two cities watching more than if it's ANA at VAN, one city is watching.

But it's also true that start times for viewers drive TV. More road games in your own time zone means more TV money.

In the other thread about keeping the Canadian division, the topic of schedule/alignment and Home/Away with everyone came up, because all of this stuff is tied together. And I've been talking to other people about baseball being in a very similar predicament when they try to expand to 32.

There's one root cause of the schedule matrix problem and the alignment problem for both leagues. Divide the continent into four even horizontal slices from Vancouver to Boston, and here's the teams in each quad, West to East:

NHL: 9 - 1 - 6 - 16. (MLB: 7 - 1 - 8 - 14)

This is why alignment and schedule is hard.

It's not good for TV business for teams to be playing road games more than 2 time zones away very often. So to make a schedule matrix where that doesn't happen all that often, you need even groups of teams who should be playing each other a lot.


I'm totally all for a Canadian Division increasing revenues for everyone, if it helps solve the issues of giving everyone more games that they want in time zone. I'm also all for Atlanta getting one of the next four teams if the NHL goes to 36 if that makes the most sense. But I don't think you can do all three at the same time because if we take away the Canadian NHL teams from that quad chart:

NHL: 6 - 1 - 5 - 13 as we stand now, but you'd need nine teams in the Western half of the US to pull it off, which means teams 35 and 36 would be like Portland and San Diego and not Houston and Atlanta, even though TV market sizes make you want to pick the opposite.


Now, if the NHL were to expand beyond 36 over time, and get to 40 teams, the solution very well could be:

Canada Conference: The current Canadian 7, plus Quebec, GTA2, Hamilton
Western Conference: The current US 7 of the PTZ/MTZ, plus San Diego, Portland and ????
Wales Conference: MIN, CHI, STL, DET, CBJ, BUF, BOS, CAR, TB, FLA (or something)
Campbell Conference: NSH, DAL, HOU, ATL, WAS, PIT, PHI, NJD, NYR, NYI (or something)

6 vs 7 conference opponents: 42
5 vs 2 conference opponents: 10
1 game vs everyone else: 30

 

[aqib]

And if QC was a viable NHL market NHL would have given them a team already. Lets not play this game.


Maybe he doesn't like hockey as a sport. Maybe he does not have the cash (net worth=/=cash in the bank). You don't know why he doesn't want an NHL team, heck you don't know if he doesn't want an NHL team.

There is a multi-billion dollar corporation ready to put a team in QC. Just like with Winnipeg before the Thrashers moved there, you had a group backed by one of the richest men in the world making moves to be ready to get a team. There is no such movement here outside of a handful of guys on this board.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

There is a multi-billion dollar corporation ready to put a team in QC. Just like with Winnipeg before the Thrashers moved there, you had a group backed by one of the richest men in the world making moves to be ready to get a team. There is no such movement here outside of a handful of guys on this board.

Yet NHL seems hesitant to give them a team. A damning statement about QC.

 

[aqib]

Yet NHL seems hesitant to give them a team. A damning statement about QC.

Yet the fact that no one tried to buy the team in Atlanta and the move from Atlanta was unanimously approved ISN'T a damning statement about the market?

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Yet the fact that no one tried to buy the team in Atlanta and the move from Atlanta was unanimously approved ISN'T a damning statement about the market?

Not really. Because only NHL capable arena is controlled by someone who isn’t actively looking for one.

QC is actively trying to get one and NHL still isn’t interested.

No one is out here saying Atlanta will get a team tomorrow or they are guaranteed to get another team. This is a place we can speculate whether they will get another team or not. I don’t understand why you are so mad about people merely talking about Atlanta.

 

[Yukon Joe]

There is a multi-billion dollar corporation ready to put a team in QC. Just like with Winnipeg before the Thrashers moved there, you had a group backed by one of the richest men in the world making moves to be ready to get a team. There is no such movement here outside of a handful of guys on this board.

Few different thoughts here. First you can't really compare the price Winnipeg paid ($160 mil) with the price the NHL was looking for in expansion ($500 mil, now $650).

You also can't really compare how rich David Thomson is (net worth $45 billion) with Pierre Karl Peladeau (net worth $2 billion).

What went down with the Quebec City expansion bid was... odd. They weren't rejected - they were "put on hold". I think the problem could well have been that $500 mil was simply too rish for Quebecor at the time, and that they're still hoping to get a cut-rate relocation deal at some point.

 

[TheLegend]

There is a multi-billion dollar corporation ready to put a team in QC. Just like with Winnipeg before the Thrashers moved there, you had a group backed by one of the richest men in the world making moves to be ready to get a team. There is no such movement here outside of a handful of guys on this board.

Is this the same multi-billion dollar corporation that was looking for investors back when the expansion was $150 million less than what it is now??? And got NO takers.

Quebecor looking for partners in NHL bid - TSN.ca


So let's drop the notion that PKP and Quebecor are ready. PKP was fawning in the media about bringing back the Nordiques just 2-3 weeks ago. But his comments lead one to believe he's looking for a distressed asset now that somehow could fall into his lap on the cheap.

He's become just another Tillman Fertitta.

 

[Mightygoose]

Is this the same multi-billion dollar corporation that was looking for investors back when the expansion was $150 million less than what it is now??? And got NO takers.

Quebecor looking for partners in NHL bid - TSN.ca


So let's drop the notion that PKP and Quebecor are ready. PKP was fawning in the media about bringing back the Nordiques just 2-3 weeks ago. But his comments lead one to believe he's looking for a distressed asset now that somehow could fall into his lap on the cheap.

He's become just another Tillman Fertitta.

I know this is OT, do you link on this?...even a French one. Haven't heard a peep out of him in ages

 

[TheLegend]

I know this is OT, do you link on this?...even a French one. Haven't heard a peep out of him in ages

Came across it while scanning the #Nordiques hashtag on Twitter. Some of it is interviews French audio so I didn't check them out but here's a brief companion article to one via Google translate.

La LNH à Québec: PKP toujours intéressé aux Nordiques

 

[Mightygoose]

Came across it while scanning the #Nordiques hashtag on Twitter. Some of it is interviews French audio so I didn't check them out but here's a brief companion article to one via Google translate.

La LNH à Québec: PKP toujours intéressé aux Nordiques

Appreciate this.

Doesn't seem to be anything alarming from the league's standpoint IMO.

Simply says they're still interested, appreciates the support of the province. There's no discussions with the league going on at the moment but they believe an 'advantageous solution' compared to others.

So yes a relocation option should there be an opportunity.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread

 

[DaBadGuy7]

This is a big reason why Atlanta will get another shot imo

 

[BKIslandersFan]

This is a big reason why Atlanta will get another shot imo

If there is a willing owner willing to pay up the dough. And either controls State Farm or is willing to build one somewhere else.

NHL definitely would want back in if opportunity arises, but its hard to see when that happens.

 

[Jumptheshark]

This is a big reason why Atlanta will get another shot imo

It was always a big market--did you think it became number 7 over night? It was not like it was in the bottom 3rd of US markets when the Thrashers were there. I have been to Atlanta several times and there is a lot of things to see and do and spend money on.

Arizona is at 11th and it has been nothing but trouble.

simply looking at one stat or figure is using a poor starting reference point, Using your logic, Columbus at 33 should be in trouble then. But I would suggest it has taken a few years and I think it was of the more stable teams in the south

The Thrashers were there for 12 years and barely made a dent in the marker. I was back there a few years ago and the people I know who have lived there their entire life shrugged their shoulders at hockey in general

 

[DaBadGuy7]

It was always a big market--did you think it became number 7 over night? It was not like it was in the bottom 3rd of US markets when the Thrashers were there. I have been to Atlanta several times and there is a lot of things to see and do and spend money on.

Arizona is at 11th and it has been nothing but trouble.

simply looking at one stat or figure is using a poor starting reference point, Using your logic, Columbus at 33 should be in trouble then. But I would suggest it has taken a few years and I think it was of the more stable teams in the south

The Thrashers were there for 12 years and barely made a dent in the marker. I was back there a few years ago and the people I know who have lived there their entire life shrugged their shoulders at hockey in general

You are looking at it the wrong way, from an financial standpoint and TV standpoint the league wants to be in as many big TV markets. Atlanta is a growing metropolitan in the South, the failures of Flames and Thrashers will not prevent that. A stable ownership group willing to make it work and NHL will go back. That isn’t happening immediately, but in 10-20 years perhaps

 

[nhlfan79]

The reality is that the NHL has a giant geographic hole in the southeastern U.S. With apologies to Nashville, Atlanta is the obvious financial engine and cultural hub of this entire quadrant of the country. It's by far the largest city within a 700 mile radius in any direction. There are dozens of Fortune 500 companies headquartered here, and literally millions of transplants who would support a competently run (heck, even one that's simply not adversarial to the fan base would've been an upgrade) NHL team.

It took a historically unprecedented amount of league neglect and ownership malfeasance for the Thrashers to have not thrived here. But it is what it is, and we are where we are. It's a real shame that the league has no goodwill remaining here that could be leveraged to right a grievous wrong. Atlanta has moved on from the NHL as much so, if not more, than the league left in the first place.

 

[GreenHornet]

You are looking at it the wrong way, from an financial standpoint and TV standpoint the league wants to be in as many big TV markets. Atlanta is a growing metropolitan in the South, the failures of Flames and Thrashers will not prevent that. A stable ownership group willing to make it work and NHL will go back. That isn’t happening immediately, but in 10-20 years perhaps

I HOPE it's as soon as 10-20 years, but I fear it may be closer to about 30 years or so (due in no small part to the factors that BKIslandersFan described).

 

[MNNumbers]

Atlanta: Well, I suppose the conversation has to consider the following things:

1- Owner
2- Arena
3- Market

As far as #1, I don't know of an identified potential owner, which doesn't mean there won't be one at some point.
As far as #2, there are conflicting reports about SFA and NHL hockey. Surely the easiest solution is to play there, and that likely requires #1 and #2 to be joint in some way. I'm not sure that works right now.
As far as #3, it's a huge market. The league would absolutely love to be there. However, it is a more challenged market than it was a few years ago because the Soccer team has grabbed the attention of a lot of people. This doesn't mean it's impossible. It's just another potential problem to overcome.

So, like most situations, the answer is: The league would love it, but they can't force it to happen. The right ownership situation is going to very difficult to find. Find someone there who wants a team, and has favorable access to an arena, and you are in in a big hurry. Finding that group is the hard part.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

It was always a big market--did you think it became number 7 over night? It was not like it was in the bottom 3rd of US markets when the Thrashers were there. I have been to Atlanta several times and there is a lot of things to see and do and spend money on.

Arizona is at 11th and it has been nothing but trouble.

simply looking at one stat or figure is using a poor starting reference point, Using your logic, Columbus at 33 should be in trouble then. But I would suggest it has taken a few years and I think it was of the more stable teams in the south

The Thrashers were there for 12 years and barely made a dent in the marker. I was back there a few years ago and the people I know who have lived there their entire life shrugged their shoulders at hockey in general

Geez, put on poor product on ice and people don't care. What a shock.

I have no idea why people expect teams to draw no matter how terrible the team is. Why is this the bar for teams in warm weather climate only?
And even then they outdrew Atlanta Hawks.

 

[chizzler]

3rd times the charm. Not a chance they try a third time. A lot of people don’t know the Atlanta market.

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Geez, put on poor product on ice and people don't care. What a shock.

I have no idea why people expect teams to draw no matter how terrible the team is. Why is this the bar for teams in warm weather climate only?
And even then they outdrew Atlanta Hawks.

There are two ways to analyze a market: Ticket Price and Tickets sold. It's the bar because teams need to make money to be worth the effort to keep them.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Another NHL team in Toronto or Montreal.

Thoughts?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Another NHL team in Toronto or Montreal.

Thoughts?

Thoughts?

Equally ridiculous and off-topic.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

3rd times the charm. Not a chance they try a third time. A lot of people don’t know the Atlanta market.

Win and they show up. Just like everywhere else.

There are two ways to analyze a market: Ticket Price and Tickets sold. It's the bar because teams need to make money to be worth the effort to keep them.

You think average ticket price in Vegas or Tampa are cheaper than badly ran team in cold weather city?

Also what makes teams worth keeping for NHL is determined by NHL owners and NHL owners alone. Not you or what you think matters.

 

[aqib]

It was always a big market--did you think it became number 7 over night? It was not like it was in the bottom 3rd of US markets when the Thrashers were there. I have been to Atlanta several times and there is a lot of things to see and do and spend money on.

Arizona is at 11th and it has been nothing but trouble.

simply looking at one stat or figure is using a poor starting reference point, Using your logic, Columbus at 33 should be in trouble then. But I would suggest it has taken a few years and I think it was of the more stable teams in the south

The Thrashers were there for 12 years and barely made a dent in the marker. I was back there a few years ago and the people I know who have lived there their entire life shrugged their shoulders at hockey in general

I don't know why people are obsessed with the idea that market size automatically means interest in the sport. When it comes to the having plenty of things to do, every city that has a major league team has plenty of stuff to do outside of sports, but in some markets sports are a bigger part of the culture of the community than others. Its why Michigan supports 4 major league teams and 2 powerhouse colleges very well despite stagnant/declining population and a miserable economy or why Philly supports its 4 major league teams only 1 of which has won a title in the last 35 years and a bunch of mid level college basketball teams and Florida teams only draw when they are title contenders.