Will Atlanta Get Another Team?

[Atlantian]

Yeah, the current configuration for the Gwinnett Arena (currently called Infinite Energy Arena, although I think that's about to change, since IE was bought out by another company in recent years) is around 9,000 and expandable to 11,000. There is a lot of of new development in the neighborhood around the arena (and the adjacent Gwinnett Co. Civic and Convention Center), and there had been some brief mention when those plans were initially revealed about possibly expanding and updating luxury boxes, but that would've been only brought capacity to about 14,000. And in any event, that talk was made only in passing and has either been put on the back burner or abandoned altogether, and that was even before the pandemic.

And to MightyGoose's point, local government's involvement would have to be substantial, since I THINK the county owns and operates the arena.

County does own and operate the arena. No box upgrades are happening anytime soon. The Arena currently fits 9119 for hockey, but the Gladiators had planned to quit selling club level seats for the 20-21 season. Development around the Arena is still in full swing, and hopefully will draw larger crowds and thus more money to the arena so they can get some dire upgrades for sports.

 

[GreenHornet]

County does own and operate the arena. No box upgrades are happening anytime soon. The Arena currently fits 9119 for hockey, but the Gladiators had planned to quit selling club level seats for the 20-21 season. Development around the Arena is still in full swing, and hopefully will draw larger crowds and thus more money to the arena so they can get some dire upgrades for sports.

It kind of blows my mind to think that the arena itself will turn 20 years old in about another year or two, I believe. Seems like only yesterday that it opened.

 

[robertocarlos]

Yes if we have one more solid year of no fans due to covid.

 

[robertocarlos]

It'd be cool to see the Flames back in Atlanta.

Why not both the Jets and Flames? Call them the Flaming Jets.

 

[oknazevad]

I feel the need to point out that State Farm Arena still has an ice plant. It was not removed in the renovations, which were more about reconfiguring the seating bowl to eliminate the wall of glass-fronted suites along the one side in favor of the mid-level-suites-and-conventional-seats configuration found in most other arenas. The place is still fully capable of hosting an NHL team. It's a matter of the economics, as the arena is controlled by Hawks ownership, and unless they're involved in the ownership of an NHL team, that team won't have the revenue sources that make the team viable. Note that in all other places where an NBA and NHL team share an arena, either the two teams are at least partly co-owned by the same group, or the NBA team is the tenant.

 

[OG6ix]

I actually think that Atlanta could have been a good southern hockey market if the team was decent and had time - similar to a Nashville than a Phoenix. What can you do when the owners of the building didn't want them though? Kinda sucks as a fan of teams.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

I actually think that Atlanta could have been a good southern hockey market if the team was decent and had time - similar to a Nashville than a Phoenix. What can you do when the owners of the building didn't want them though? Kinda sucks as a fan of teams.

Thrashers were doing fine when they were owned by Turner, at some point even outdrawing the Hawks. The problems came only after the team was sold to a group of clowns who had no interest in owning the NHL team.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yet with the Charlotte Hornets collapse, there was immediate interest on both the city and investors part to bring a team back.

NHL efforts to Atlanta 10 years later..still crickets

Charlotte's interest in lining up a replacement team pre-dated the relocation. The city put the arena issue to public referendum, the public said "no", and the team relocated. As a next step, the city overrode the "no" and proceeded to build the new arena anyway, lining up a new owner and soliciting the NBA for an expansion team to go there.

That is not parallel to already having a new arena, and the ownership of that arena pushing the team out the door. In that scenario there is no purpose in trying to line up a new team. If the situation in Charlotte had been like the one in Atlanta, the Hornets would not exist right now. It's that simple.

 

[OG6ix]

Thrashers were doing fine when they were owned by Turner, at some point even outdrawing the Hawks. The problems came only after the team was sold to a group of clowns who had no interest in owning the NHL team.

Yeah I remember watching some Thrashers games in the mid 2000s and then Watching Raptors vs Hawks. There was like no one at the Hawks games.

Atlanta Spirit didn't care about hockey at all it seemed. That's sad... if Turner still owned them and that whole AOL Time warner stuff didn't happen he would have kept them (and WCW Nitro).

 

[Mightygoose]

Charlotte's interest in lining up a replacement team pre-dated the relocation. The city put the arena issue to public referendum, the public said "no", and the team relocated. As a next step, the city overrode the "no" and proceeded to build the new arena anyway, lining up a new owner and soliciting the NBA for an expansion team to go there.

That is not parallel to already having a new arena, and the ownership of that arena pushing the team out the door. In that scenario there is no purpose in trying to line up a new team. If the situation in Charlotte had been like the one in Atlanta, the Hornets would not exist right now. It's that simple.

I do agree the city had a solution before the relocation took place and the political will was there in keeping it an NBA market. Will also agree the reason why the Hornets left are not the same as why the Thrasher left, but the desire to bring one back...somewhere in the market by someone/group...is not the same either. St. Paul agreed to build a new arena to bring the NHL back despite a another modern building being not that far away in Minny.

By many people here the writing on the wall was as soon as soon as ASG bought the team 7 years before the relocation. In that case it's been 17 years in the need of a local solution including present and future. Perhaps, other parties did look behind the scenes at something that offered a better business model and during that time and since and saw it's not viable and there's a lack of will to make it happen.

 

[GreenHornet]

Yeah I remember watching some Thrashers games in the mid 2000s and then Watching Raptors vs Hawks. There was like no one at the Hawks games.

Atlanta Spirit didn't care about hockey at all it seemed. That's sad... if Turner still owned them and that whole AOL Time warner stuff didn't happen he would have kept them (and WCW Nitro).

Or, as I mentioned in the other recent Atlanta thread, there's an excellent chance (IMHO) that the Thrashers would still be here if Turner/Time Warner had not screwed over David McDavid and he'd been allowed to buy the whole package (Thrashers/Hawks/Arena management) instead of being passed over for the A$G Septocluster™.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I do agree the city had a solution before the relocation took place and the political will was there in keeping it an NBA market. Will also agree the reason why the Hornets left are not the same as why the Thrasher left, but the desire to bring one back...somewhere in the market by someone/group...is not the same either. St. Paul agreed to build a new arena to bring the NHL back despite a another modern building being not that far away in Minny.

Again -- in Charlotte, the notion of having an NBA franchise (the original or a replacement) was 100% centered around the construction of a new arena. It was not about demand for the NBA. It was about the reality of either having a new building or not.

It's fundamentally different than what happened in Atlanta, where there was no new building and there was never going to be a new building. Nobody is the slightest bit interested in a second NBA/NHL capable facility in the same city where a good one already exists. The only viable venue is controlled by the Hawks, who would be the landlord for whatever ownership group wanted to put an NHL team there. That's a radioactive situation, and not something anyone in their right mind would pay an expansion/relocation fee to experience given what just happened in recent memory.

The other major dissimilarity between this situation and Charlotte/Seattle/whoever is that the city of Atlanta has already gone through the song and dance of "selling itself" on the NHL twice, only to have the league abruptly cut ties after a few years. Again, who in their right mind would want to die on that hill? Either financially from an ownership standpoint, or politically from a civic development standpoint, going back to the NHL with a big sales pitch would be like asking your twice-divorced ex to come over for dinner. The kinds of people who run hedge funds or manage cities tend not to do things which are going to put a big "sucker" sign across their foreheads.

By many people here the writing on the wall was as soon as soon as ASG bought the team 7 years before the relocation.

ASG's intentions were not at all obvious at the time they bought the team. I don't know where you're getting that from.

 

[Mightygoose]

Again -- in Charlotte, the notion of having an NBA franchise (the original or a replacement) was 100% centered around the construction of a new arena. It was not about demand for the NBA. It was about the reality of either having a new building or not.

It's fundamentally different than what happened in Atlanta, where there was no new building and there was never going to be a new building. Nobody is the slightest bit interested in a second NBA/NHL capable facility in the same city where a good one already exists. The only viable venue is controlled by the Hawks, who would be the landlord for whatever ownership group wanted to put an NHL team there. That's a radioactive situation, and not something anyone in their right mind would pay an expansion/relocation fee to experience given what just happened in recent memory.

The other major dissimilarity between this situation and Charlotte/Seattle/whoever is that the city of Atlanta has already gone through the song and dance of "selling itself" on the NHL twice, only to have the league abruptly cut ties after a few years. Again, who in their right mind would want to die on that hill? Either financially from an ownership standpoint, or politically from a civic development standpoint, going back to the NHL with a big sales pitch would be like asking your twice-divorced ex to come over for dinner. The kinds of people who run hedge funds or manage cities tend not to do things which are going to put a big "sucker" sign across their foreheads.



ASG's intentions were not at all obvious at the time they bought the team. I don't know where you're getting that from.

According to many on this site, it seemed the fix was the moment ASG bought the team.

As far as other places that built 2nd buildings, true the city itself would not build one. it was done Minneapolis-St. Paul to bring the NHL back. In Phoenix, a second one was built to prevent the Coyotes from moving when they needed a new home so precedence does exists.

If a new arena was built with the NHL team as the operator, this would be a different business model from being dependent on the NBA owner and what happened to the Flames and Thrashers wouldn't happen again. If the NHL team was the main tenant, why would the league bolt at the first sign of trouble? That would be a very different business model than the first two.

Would no city want to invest despite the past. Ottawa lost 2 CFL teams in the span of 10 years. The city still invested when new ownership surfaced...2 years after the Renegades died.

I do agree every city/team has different circumstances that's unique to it's own. The common thing is there was a will either politically and/or private to move forward, at some point it would need to happen here.

 

[GreenHornet]

According to many on this site, it seemed the fix was the moment ASG bought the team.

The fix was, indeed, in as soon as the Septocluster™ bought the team. HOWEVER, they never really revealed their true intentions until all the lawsuits and internal squabbling started a few years after the sale was completed and they had the keys to everything. It was eventually confirmed in legal briefs involving one of the lawsuits (I believe the one in which they sued their own lawyers for botching (in their minds) the suit against one of their own (Steve Belkin)).

 

[tarheelhockey]

According to many on this site, it seemed the fix was the moment ASG bought the team.

I can't speak for everyone's perspective on this, but I think what they're saying is the fix was in because ASG bought the team with a hidden agenda to liquidate the Thrashers as a cash grab. We know now that they intended to do this all along, but it was not obvious until long after they purchased the team.

A lot of the picture was filled in during the process of relocation (major smoking gun when they structured the "local ownership search" to deliberately chase away potential bidders) and then when dirty laundry got aired as ASG slowly imploded.

If a new arena was built with the NHL team as the operator, this would be a different business model from being dependent on the NBA owner and what happened to the Flames and Thrashers wouldn't happen again. If the NHL team was the main tenant, why would the league bolt at the first sign of trouble? That would be a very different business model than the first two.

Yes that model would work out far better, but nobody wants a new arena in Atlanta. These facilities cost upwards of half a billion dollars and require public subsidies. There's no economic argument for public subsidies when there's already a modern, recently-renovated arena in place.

To be clear, without public subsidies we are talking about someone spending something like $800M on the arena + $650M for the franchise = near $1.5 billion to have an NHL franchise. That's simply not going to happen and isn't even worth speculating about.

In regard to the Wild and Coyotes -- Minneapolis was replacing the 1973 building which cost them the North Stars, so using that opportunity to attract an expansion franchise made logical sense. What's going on in Arizona often makes a lot less logical sense, but at least the "we really need a new arena" factor is in place there.

Would no city want to invest despite the past. Ottawa lost 2 CFL teams in the span of 10 years. The city still invested when new ownership surfaced...2 years after the Renegades died.

And what brought the RedBlacks back to Ottawa? The need to replace Frank Clair Stadium with a modern facility, which gave the new ownership a platform for attracting an expansion team. This fits the same pattern that we saw with the Wild and the Jets, and then attempted in Quebec City.

I do agree every city/team has different circumstances that's unique to it's own. The common thing is there was a will either politically and/or private to move forward, at some point it would need to happen here.

I don't disagree with this, it's just that we have to recognize that the situation in Atlanta cuts off any political or private effort at the knees. At this point, trying to bring an expansion team to that city would be tilting at windmills even if you had a billionaire owner and 20,000 season ticket applications lined up.

 

[Dale Gribble]

I wouldn't doubt that if it was solely up to the NHL, along with a willing owner and a new arena was built in Atlanta for Hockey and the NBA (two arena's fighting for dates will hurt one of them) we'd see the NHL back in Atlanta. I also don't doubt that if Atlanta and Portland were ready now, that we'd see the NHL go to 34 teams. Money talks, and... you know the rest.

 

[Peiskos]

Personally I don't see how Atlanta would be ahead of Québec City in terms of getting an NHL team.

There's a brand new 18,259 seat arena just sitting empty in QC. When it comes to expansion/relocation in the east its Québec City at #1 right now.

I believe its not a question of if, but simply when.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Personally I don't see how Atlanta would be ahead of Québec City in terms of getting an NHL team.

Easy.

More corporate money.

New arena means nothing if they don't have the dough.

 

[dkitson16]

I posted this previously in a different Atlanta thread. Thought I'd repost it here.

A short history of the Atlanta Thrashers ownership - or why the Thrashers never had a fighting chance:

2000 - AOL/Time Warner merger – Ted Turner was the driving force bringing hockey in, without him in command, the new company had little interest in sports

2002 – Dot.com bubble bursts and AOL in serious trouble and writes off a $99 billion debt- they have to sell off assets

2003 – Time Warner reneges on deal to sell Arena and teams to David McDavid, former part owner of the Dallas Mavericks

2003 – Time Warner sells Arena and NHL and NBA teams to the Atlanta Spirit Group, that includes Ted Turner’s son and son in law (But daddy, I want the basketball team!) - only two of Atlanta Spirit have any background in hockey as co-owners of Washington NBA and NHL

2004 – NBA and NHL finally approve sale to Atlanta Spirit after about 6 months

2005 – McDavid sues Time Warner for reneging on deal and revealing confidential information to Atlanta Spirit Group

2005 – Atlanta Spirit divided – Steve Belkin takes rest of group to court to prevent his ouster as NBA governor over a dispute over an NBA trade he didn’t like – Note that Belkin was brought in late to bring in some much needed money for the purchase and the rest of the Group wanted him out as soon as possible

2005 – Agreement reached to buy out Steve Belkin – and Atlanta Spirit seek to sell NHL team

2006 – Belkin sues rest of Atlanta Spirit for reneging on deal – a dispute has arisen over the pricing and the ownership agreement didn’t address the issue

2008 – David McDavid wins $316 million lawsuit against Turner Sports (Time Warner)

2009 – Atlanta Spirit hired agency to find buyer for Thrashers – denies they will move

2010 – McDavid wins in Court of Appeal – of note the Court relies on Forbes valuation of the NHL and NBA teams

2010 – Atlanta Spirit and Belkin settle their issues and agree to an undisclosed price –

2011 – Atlanta Spirit sue their lawyers King & Spalding for malpractice and losses associated with Thrashers, who they have been trying to sell since 2005 – King & Spalding had messed up the agreement with Belkin, specifically the process to resolve disputes in evaluating the franchises

2011 – sell Thrashers to True North

2011 - Atlanta Spirit then attempts to sell NBA and Arena management rights to Alex Meruelo, but the NBA rejects him

So from 2002-2011 the Thrashers owners had deep financial troubles and/or were involved in significant lawsuits

 

[nhlfan79]

It's the ten-year anniversary of the Thrashers' relocation to Winnipeg, and the AJC wrote a good article about how it all went down, both from the players' perspective, as told by Chris Thorburn, as well as from the fans.

This is all on ASG. F--- them. I'm still quite bitter.

10 years later: A void in Atlanta after loss of Thrashers

 

[GreenHornet]

It's the ten-year anniversary of the Thrashers' relocation to Winnipeg, and the AJC wrote a good article about how it all went down, both from the players' perspective, as told by Chris Thorburn, as well as from the fans.

This is all on ASG. F--- them. I'm still quite bitter.

10 years later: A void in Atlanta after loss of Thrashers

My only issue with Bill Tiller's comments in this story his use of the antiquated term "octa-cluster" to refer to A$G. It was updated to "Septo-cluster"™ when Steve Belkin left the group by suing the other seven tentacles. Other than that, I'm with him. I'm also with you, nhlfan79. I'm also still bitter.

 

[BruinDust]

I'm going to say yes, Atlanta will get another NHL team. Now it may be 15-20 years from now, I think they will need another building built, but I think they'll get another crack. They are the 10th largest TV market in the US. I believe that the NHL will attempt another round of expansion likely sometime in the 2030s. They have to continue to grow the talent pool, mostly by increased participation at the amateur level in the US and in particular non-traditional hockey markets producing more NHL players.

There is too much money at stack not to expand again. I think they'll aim for 4 more teams. I think the NHL desperately wants to be a fixture in the largests TV markets. So Atlanta at 10, and also Houston at #8. With a team going into Seattle, the NHL will have teams in 15 of the 17 biggest US TV markets.

I also think long-term the NHL has their eyes on Cleveland (#19) and Portland (#22). Put 4 teams in Atlanta/Houston/Cleveland/Portland and you now have teams in 21 of the 24 largest US TV markets, ignoring only Orlando (#18), Sacramento (#20) and Charlotte (#21) as I don't think there is enough demand given those 3 markets proximity to other non-tradtional markets.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I also think long-term the NHL has their eyes on Cleveland (#19) and Portland (#22). Put 4 teams in Atlanta/Houston/Cleveland/Portland and you now have teams in 21 of the 24 largest US TV markets, ignoring only Orlando (#18), Sacramento (#20) and Charlotte (#21) as I don't think there is enough demand given those 3 markets proximity to other non-tradtional markets.

Nope. Cleveland is not happening. Columbus exist to serve the entire Ohio market as a whole.

 

[CanadianCoyote]

The four markets I think the NHL has the most interest in are Houston/Austin, Atlanta, Québec and Hamilton/GTA2. Cleveland's not happening because they have the Blue Jackets covering Ohio already, and Portland won't either unless someone actually bothers to step up in that market.

Houston's self-explanatory, the NHL has wanted that market for decades at this point, and I think really regrets not letting the Aeros in during the WHA merger. Atlanta's a big market with a lot of corporate investors and a diverse economy, it's pretty well perfect as an NHL city if you find the right brains to run the darn team.

Québec is the biggest market left in Canada without an NHL franchise of any kind, and there's so much money to be made in having a second GTA team that I'd be surprised if it never happens.

 

[BruinDust]

Nope. Cleveland is not happening. Columbus exist to serve the entire Ohio market as a whole.

You are right I forgot about Columbus.