That's concerning. Iowa isn't stacked at forward or anything.
Prospect Info: Wild Prospect Thread 2023-2024
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BagHead
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So strange to see Zidlicky in a Wild sweater again, after how it ended last time.
I'll have to give the article a read in a bit. Thanks for posting it!
- Dec 10, 2012
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Minnesota isn't stacked at center and Rossi only played on the fourth line during the first month of the season last year. Sometimes the more concerning part is the coach's decision.
What this comes down to for me, if you guys got the choice to go develop in Nizhnekamsk Russia or Kansas City Missouri, and you actually got more ice time in Kansas City, which one would you choose? I'd be more concerned if he didn't go put up 26 points in 47 games in the KHL in his first pro season.
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A little bit different of a situation. Rossi had 1st line duties across the board in Iowa, as he should in a development style league. In Minnesota, he didn't look like he belonged at all. Guys like Tyson Jost and Sam Steel looked better than him. Rossi definitely did not "only play(ed) on the fourth line" during the first month. 1/3 of his ice time was with Boldy and he had zero production with him.
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Should Firstov get inside track on top six wing duties in Iowa over journeymen for similar reasons?
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Right, exactly, so why would he stay here if he's not going to be given the same top six minutes other prospects get in a development style league, when he can go play 5 hours from home and get more playing time?
There pros of going back to Russia, for him, far outweigh the cons. Doesn't mean he's a bust and doesn't mean he doesn't want to play in Minnesota.
He also played three years in Connecticut, signed his ELC in March and then decided to go back in October. He could have gone back to CT for one more year and then ended up anywhere he wanted. Why would he sign that ELC if he didn't want to be back at some point? Maybe he'd just prefer to play in Nizhny Novgorod over Des Moines? And I've been to Des Moines enough to not begrudge him for that. I've never even been to Russia but I might rather play in Nizhny Novgorod than Des Moines for 2-3 years.
This just feels like any excuse to make it okay for why he bailed.
If he wanted to play in the KHL, he should have made that clear before the start of the year.
If being so close to home was that important, why did he play three years at Connecticut with no problem?
If he wanted more ice time, why didn’t he work harder to take it? His competition was Beckman and… Shaw? This guy is so weak willed he couldn’t give it more than a game to beat those guys out for ice time? Really?
I could see a reasonable argument that if he gave it a good 10-15 game try, like NHL teams do with the 9 game stint, and things were not improving then he might have a point of developing better in Russia.
This just feels like pouting from a 10 year old.
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Doesn't feel like that at all, but we can agree to disagree
Circulartheory
Registered User
Its pouting but from a professional athlete, not a 10yr old and it comes with the territory. I worked in a different industry but on the agency side and talent/employer will disagree on what's best for the person. It just part of the business.
I disagree and feel if he wants to be taken seriously as a Wild prospect, he will need to commit to the development process but again, it is what it is, its part of the business. Likely, he will not see a minute with the Wild and if he does develop, likely be used as a trade asset.
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Sounds like that would be pouting from Wild management by the same standards Firstov's being held to
Minnewildsota
He who laughs last thinks slowest
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For all we know, something could have come up health wise with his family, it something similar. I’m not going to begrudge anybody for wanting to play closer to home.
He could develop in Iowa, closer to the organization. Ice time unknown.
Or ice could play in Russia, closer to home. Ice time unknown.
He could just be home sick. Who knows.
He could develop in Iowa, closer to the organization. Ice time unknown.
Or ice could play in Russia, closer to home. Ice time unknown.
He could just be home sick. Who knows.
Circulartheory
Registered User
Both sides are pouting as both sides disagree on the correct route. Again, all conjecture at this point but it sounds like any dispute any team has with any player - my guess is Firstov's party want vote of confidence that he will give significant minutes and coaching staff is not going to give that until he works his way up.
From the Wild point on view, I can why they are unwilling to give him the security as he hasn't proven anything yet on the NA rink (NCAA and stats were average) and only had one season of 26 points in 47 KHL games - that is only 8th on his team. If I were them, I want to see him develop and prove his worth.
From Firstov's and agents pov, I can see why KHL is better. Instead of spending a year on North American ice were there is a chance he'll produce just okay - he can go to the KHL where they pay better, play closer to home, and then perhaps position as a premium KHL player where he can skip the AHL process and jump into the NHL when one comes calling.
To me, its just part of the biz, not really a situation where blame need to assigned. Not saying you are as I haven't read that far in the thread but just saying in general.
Wasn't Firstov buried in the AHL and fighting for ice time? Walker, Beckman, Swaney, and Chaffee were ahead of him. Then it was a couple of vet plugs, Milne, Firstov, and some AHL contracts all fighting for the same ice time.
To me he was the prime candidate for the ECHL so he could get bigger playing time while waiting for injuries and called back up to the AHL. The KHL seemed like a better option than the AHL/ECHL fringe to me.
To me he was the prime candidate for the ECHL so he could get bigger playing time while waiting for injuries and called back up to the AHL. The KHL seemed like a better option than the AHL/ECHL fringe to me.
Walker and Swaney are right wingers. Chaffee played 10 total games for Iowa.
I think it's more telling if he couldn't beat these players out for an AHL spot. How do we expect this guy to ever be considered for an NHL spot if he's afraid of competition.
Minnewildsota
He who laughs last thinks slowest
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Probably not. That’s why I’m not getting worked up about it. He was a long shot to make the NHL to begin with, who cares if he plays in the AHL or KHL
Firstov didn’t play many games for Iowa, but he by no means looked special in those games. As mentioned above, Beckman, Chaffee, Walker, Petan,, Shaw and maybe Swaney were rightfully ahead of him. Old pros like Fogarty, and Cramarossa were also better.
He jumped ship, then Shaw got called up, Chaffee injured for the season, and Hentges/Shaw missing large parts of it. Cramarossa asked for his release early on so he could play in Germany. If Firstov had stuck around maybe he would’ve gotten an opportunity, IF he worked hard and didn’t turn his nose up at 4th line TOI like Milne and Giroux played. Milne made the most of limited TOI early on, and eventually, IMO became one of the top forwards on the team, getting PP TOI. That only happened because he stuck around, worked his ass off, even if he had limited minutes in bottom six situations.
Firstov had some decent hands, but looked sluggish, hesitant, and not physical when he played. Nothing wrong with that as a newcomer coming into a tough league, but if he was demanding top minutes over what there was on the roster then he had an ego problem. You put in the work first, get the reward second, not the other way around.
Having said all that, maybe he had some other compelling personal reason to go back home that we don’t know about. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me that he would find North .America, or Iowa, to be a problem, as he had spent a year in the USHL with Waterloo, and three more at UConn. He should’ve known the lay of the land.
If it was about money you think he would’ve known that before the beginning of the season?
He jumped ship, then Shaw got called up, Chaffee injured for the season, and Hentges/Shaw missing large parts of it. Cramarossa asked for his release early on so he could play in Germany. If Firstov had stuck around maybe he would’ve gotten an opportunity, IF he worked hard and didn’t turn his nose up at 4th line TOI like Milne and Giroux played. Milne made the most of limited TOI early on, and eventually, IMO became one of the top forwards on the team, getting PP TOI. That only happened because he stuck around, worked his ass off, even if he had limited minutes in bottom six situations.
Firstov had some decent hands, but looked sluggish, hesitant, and not physical when he played. Nothing wrong with that as a newcomer coming into a tough league, but if he was demanding top minutes over what there was on the roster then he had an ego problem. You put in the work first, get the reward second, not the other way around.
Having said all that, maybe he had some other compelling personal reason to go back home that we don’t know about. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me that he would find North .America, or Iowa, to be a problem, as he had spent a year in the USHL with Waterloo, and three more at UConn. He should’ve known the lay of the land.
If it was about money you think he would’ve known that before the beginning of the season?
Circulartheory
Registered User
I have the same amount of care that I had when we traded away Brennan Menell for future considerations bc while KHL is a strong league, its not comparable to the NHL. You need to stick out in the KHL as a top player or a shiny youngster if you want to jump into the NHL (looking at Kaprizov and even Khusnutdinov). Firstov and Menell are neither.
It sucks that it looks like he's on a path as a bust for a 2nd rounder but it happens and we move it. We can chalk one tick in the loss column for BG/Judd on their draft history but its a minor loss.
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Why should he have to put his head down and grind out 4th line/healthy scratch minutes when he can go to the KHL, get more playing time, and develop there? It's not like Iowa is a top of the line development program. That team has sucked. If he can get more playing time in the KHL and we can keep giving minutes to Fogarty, Petan and Swaney, isn't that a win-win for everyone? He shouldn't be sitting in the press box or playing 8 minutes a night just because "you've gotta earn it", that doesn't make any sense. you want him playing.
This doesn't have to be a "you either develop in Iowa the hard way or you're against us" thing. It is OKAY for him to go play in Russia for a few years and then come back. We have no problem with Khusnutdinov and Yurov developing in Russia, we have no problem with Ohgren developing in Sweden, and in theory we have no problem with Kumpulainen developing in Finland if he wants to, but we have a problem with Firstov going back to the KHL for a couple years? Why? As long as he's working on getting better and trying to make the team down the line, why does it matter if it's in Iowa or Russia?
I'm still confused as to why going back to Russia for a couple years = bust.
Imagine saying Firstov would be a 4th liner on Iowa and then immediately turning around and saying that Iowa sucks.
So who sucks more, Firstov or Iowa?
Edit: I think most would prefer that Khusnutdinov, Yurov and Ohgren were here pushing for a chance to make the NHL squad.
So who sucks more, Firstov or Iowa?
Edit: I think most would prefer that Khusnutdinov, Yurov and Ohgren were here pushing for a chance to make the NHL squad.
Circulartheory
Registered User
Again - grain of salt because purely stat watching and reading comments from others. Not on own viewings. But in his post draft year, he has:
2019-20 - NCAA - 23 points in 34 games (3rd on his team)
2020-21 - NCAA - 12 points in 13 games (if prorated, he is 3rd on his team), 0 pints in 5 games for Russia WJC U20
2021-22 - NCAA - 23 points in 35 games (3rd on his team)
2022-23 - KHL - 26 points in 47 games (8th on his team)
Theses stats on their own don't seem very impressive. Good, but not impressive. And for a prospect who's known for more his skill than a checking or defensive game, there is not much sign he is changing his game to be more like Dewar. Nor does he have the size or hitting game to be like a Duhaime/Greenway. And his stats don't back his offensive skillset.
If I remember correctly, I don't really remember him ever standing out in our camps. So that is why I see his trajectory as a bust. He can go to the KHL but unless he gains an extra gear offensive, I don't see him making the NHL and if he wants to remake his game into a checking forward, you learn that in Iowa.
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Again, Firstov did not look impressive in his brief time in Iowa.
How are coaches then going to assess TOI? Are they supposed to say, “ Sorry, Mr. Chaffee/Walker/ Beckman/Cramarossa/ Fogarty/ Swaney/etc., but Firstov is going to go back to Russia if he doesn’t get top line/PP TOI so we’ll have him take your spot, even though you are a better player scoring at a greater rate than him.”
I would bet that Milne gets to the NHL and has a better career there than Firstov will ever have. He did nothing but work hard early on, and BE USEFUL, which is what grown ups do. Sure enough, he was on the PP at year’s end, and flashed some nice hands, as well as showing off his NHL quality speed and motor, which Firstov can only dream of.
How are coaches then going to assess TOI? Are they supposed to say, “ Sorry, Mr. Chaffee/Walker/ Beckman/Cramarossa/ Fogarty/ Swaney/etc., but Firstov is going to go back to Russia if he doesn’t get top line/PP TOI so we’ll have him take your spot, even though you are a better player scoring at a greater rate than him.”
I would bet that Milne gets to the NHL and has a better career there than Firstov will ever have. He did nothing but work hard early on, and BE USEFUL, which is what grown ups do. Sure enough, he was on the PP at year’s end, and flashed some nice hands, as well as showing off his NHL quality speed and motor, which Firstov can only dream of.
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Why would I want him to be a Duhaime or Dewar type player lol. That's silly. Those are fourth line grinders. Firstov has more skill and IQ than that. His all around game is perfectly fine for a middle six caliber winger, I want him focusing on offense, because, as you said, he's more of a skill player than a checking player. So what's the problem with playing top 6 in the KHL?
When was the last time Iowa developed anything but fourth liners?
So why would I want Firstov there if my hope is that he becomes more than a fourth liner?
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