Why will this team not go all in?

[HockeyVirus]

This is the best roster the Leafs have had in decades. We have several stars in their primes. I get the initial plan was to draft well and contend for years, but we are at a point where this plan doesn't matter anymore because people will be fired and players traded by new management. It feels like this front office is more focused on sticking to the plan than anything else.

Shanny said

The challenge here in Toronto is not to come up with the plan. The challenge in Toronto is to stick to it. That's the hard part.

However the 5 year plan has come and gone. This is an elite team who just needs to be put over the top, but management won't do it. They are happy to exchange depth pieces and hope next year is different. Why not go all in and go and get someone, ANYONE, who gives this team a real chance even if it is only for a year or two? I fear when looking back on this era what will overshadow any potential this team had will be management being happy to sit on their hands for most of it.

This is not a trade Nylander thread.
This is not a fire Dubas or Keefe thread
This is a what good is Robertson going to do for us in 2 years when Matthews, Nylander, and Marner can walk without us ever having success? Why do we move our firsts to dump capspace but will never use them to upgrade the team in a meaningful way?

According to this we have the 11th best prospect pool. While that is awesome, WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE CONTENDING. Why will management not move some of these guys and bring in a J.T Miller, a Chychrun, literally anything that improves the roster? We are all upset because we know the team is THIS close and they keep falling short. Isn't it managements job to give them what they need to get it done?

I don't care we have 4 forwards at 40M, what is done is done. What is clear is this team, in elimination games, needs scoring help. When will the Leafs go out and acquire someone who makes a difference, not move a first for Foligno. Instead we will continue to add depth pieces and spin our tires.

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[Fogelhund]

Miller and Chychrun have been on the market since well before the trade deadline last year. Both have reasonable contracts many teams could fit in. 30 other GM are unwilling to meet the trade demands of Arizona and Vancouver. Doesn’t that tell you something?

 

[as Pure as Evil]

The 5 year plan had much more pain involved we were fortunate cursed to have such a quick turn around after drafting.mathews. could have been able to draft the next few waves but we returned to form a year after being one of the worst.

5 year plan had us as a fringe bubble team at year 5 not 4 years near the top of the league

If we dont make the playoffs vs the caps how much capital would we have reeped trading all the pending ufas that season alone

Always will be buts and ifs but this is.where we are now

 

[HockeyVirus]

The 5 year plan had much more pain involved we were fortunate cursed to have such a quick turn around after drafting.mathews. could have been able to draft the next few waves but we returned to form a year after being one of the worst.

5 year plan had us as a fringe bubble team at year 5 not 4 years near the top of the league

If we dont make the playoffs vs the caps how much capital would we have reeped trading all the pending ufas that season alone

Always will be buts and ifs but this is.where we are now

Well next season is going to be year 8 of the plan. At this point in elimination games 2020 onwards (after their ELC's)

7 GF
18 GA

It's a clear pattern we just can't score. And almost every time, things are very even until something happens and the team can't recover from it and it snowballs.

I like many others thought the solution is to go get a top goalie. Ok, he doesn't do that, instead gambles on some boom or bust projects. Ok, I get it, I get the logic. We don't want to do that in goal, instead you think you have something here.

THEN UPGRADE ELSEWHERE. We either need more scoring (IMO this is it) or we need to prevent more goals. Management is happy with our defense and goaltending. So we need more scoring. We need another top line winger to give this team more depth and someone else who can shift the tide for us.

But no, we'll prioritize elc contracts for players who will be playing depth roles for us, when we've already proven we can get these league min players to fill the same roles.

 

[barilko05]

I think because we've done it the recent past (the Mats era) when we traded the future for the Nolan's, the Leetch's, the Housley's, the Francis's, etc. Then what happened? We fell just short, and then were doggie dirt for a decade. This management team, even though it wasn't them, is still painfully aware of that and perhaps are gun shy to pull the trigger and sink the franchise for another 10 years if it doesn't work.

Then again, maybe they just don't think it's necessary to bring in a big gun. Maybe they have confidence this group will finally figure it out on their own. Mine is growing smaller every year, unfortunately. I hope they're right.

 

[Fogelhund]

Noting, it's July 22nd. There will still be changes before October when we play games. Then there will be 3-5 roster changes between October, and when we enter the playoffs. But people lack patience, and want everything done today.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

This team did go all in in 2021, but Dubas in his infinite wisdom targeted the wrong forward for a trade. This season I suppose he figured our offence would be enough without help and prioritized Giordano to shore up the defence. Also we couldn’t go too hard with trading futures given how many we blew through last season.

Leafs didn’t go all in this season but it almost worked. A couple bad calls away but that’s of no solace to anyone given how “close” we’ve been the past 5 playoffs.

This season I suppose we’ll see where the team is at and if he figures it’s worth it to go all in. Too many variables to know for sure if we’ll need scoring help or not, or if assets should be spent on a goalie if Murray and Samsonov turn out to be duds. Robertson could prove to be a reliable goal scorer and the need for another sniping winger drops.

 

[Racer88]

Noting, it's July 22nd. There will still be changes before October when we play games. Then there will be 3-5 roster changes between October, and when we enter the playoffs. But people lack patience, and want everything done today.

Anyone of us that have watched the last 40 years of Leafs let alone the last 6 years of 1st round failure has patience as far as I’m concerned. Lol

 

[HockeyVirus]

This team did go all in in 2021, but Dubas in his infinite wisdom targeted the wrong forward for a trade. This season I suppose he figured our offence would be enough without help and prioritized Giordano to shore up the defence. Also we couldn’t go too hard with trading futures given how many we blew through last season.

Leafs didn’t go all in this season but it almost worked. A couple bad calls away but that’s of no solace to anyone given how “close” we’ve been the past 5 playoffs.

This season I suppose we’ll see where the team is at and if he figures it’s worth it to go all in. Too many variables to know for sure if we’ll need scoring help or not, or if assets should be spent on a goalie if Murray and Samsonov turn out to be duds. Robertson could prove to be a reliable goal scorer and the need for another sniping winger drops.

I don't think that was all in. A first and a 3rd wasn't it? And then a late pick. That's not what I mean. I mean trading Robertson + 1st + for an impact player in their primes

 

[A1LeafNation]

They went all in 2021 and shit the bed against the worst team in the playoffs.

Why go all in on a team that can't get out of the first round?

 

[Prominence]

There’s a lot of inconsistencies in the op.

We had the worst rebuild in history. Usually in a rebuild, a team accumulates picks and tries to draft players who actually make it. They capitalize on picks after the 1st round. Chicago had byfuglien, keith, bickell, crawford, hjalmarsson, etc. Pittsburgh got letang in the 3rd, murray, sheary in the 3rd. Toronto drafted travis dermott that’s it.

They didn’t even stick to the plan. If they did, they wouldn’t have traded a 2nd for brian boyle and another 2nd for tomas plekanec.

They went “all in” by wasting a lot of picks on ben hutton, foligno, riley nash and rittich.

Believe it or not, the management has addressed issues over the years. One year we needed defence, so we got muzzin and then brodie. The next we needed “toughness and leadership.” So they signed simmonds, thornton and then traded for foligno. They also had size in galchenyuk as well. They had bogosian for one year to address veteranship and experience.

The leafs may not have the 11th best prospect pool. Those are just opinions from a scouting service and that one guy. They have certainly been efficient with their picks however.

 

[Buds17]

Is it reasonable to expect Miller and/or Chychrun to do what the Core 5 (and others) apparently cannot? Cap space is also at a premium right now and the prospect/pick capital will take a further hit if the intention is to require retention.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I don't think that was all in. A first and a 3rd wasn't it? And then a late pick. That's not what I mean. I mean trading Robertson + 1st + for an impact player in their primes

Really depends on the player we’re acquiring and which prospect we’re trading. Line of succession needs to be clear and we’ve got key players getting older and on expiring contracts that need to be replaced with young and cheap talent. Robertson I think is the most expendable of our near ready prospects given his size and injury history, but our Swedish defence duo and Knies should be held given the formers positions and the latter’s unique play style.

 

[Racer88]

How do they acquire anyone of any significance with the cap structure they have…….this is it for the next 3 years at least

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Dubas isn't that guy. Even when he "goes for it", it's just some safe player like a Foligno. He's good at keeping the Leafs as a high floor team, but he's been here since 2018 and the team is still just waiting to take the same step forward as when he got here

 

[Madap]

Dubas’ philosophy as always been to be good now and in the future. He’s said that himself. He really doesn’t seem to be the guy to go all in, however he has shown some willingness to make moves.

If he becomes more confident that our team can make it out of the first round, he’ll do it. This also likely has more to do with the teams in our division rather than his confidence in our teams ability. We’ve never been first in our division - if we are maybe he’ll make a big splash. Very well could be this year.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Dubas isn't that guy. Even when he "goes for it", it's just some safe player like a Foligno. He's good at keeping the Leafs as a high floor team, but he's been here since 2018 and the team is still just waiting to take the same step forward as when he got here

Yes. I understand we took a step back to retool the defense and have Keefe come in and get a chance to establish his system. But in the process we bled all of our depth. Now we have a good defense and a good top 5. Goaltending and depth forwards are all gambles. If that is what we want to do, then fine I get it. But then we need to go all in with this plan, add another top end forward and use cheap players on our bottom pairing if needed too.

Look just today a top 6 two way winger went for a 3rd and 4th. How much would that improve our team? If we moved someone like Muzzin, sign Sandin for him and then, trade Holl, it all works and our defense is really the same as it was.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Price too high to go all in last year. Going all in isn't even the problem. Dubas doesn't know how to build around the core. What makes it more concerning is his finger print not on the core either besides the contracts he gave. You can take your worst enemy on this place and make him GM for one specific day only and still have full confidence John Tavares signs here.

So what can we truly trust him with wholeheartedly? You can't trust him with trades because no argument exist to say he has high odds to win the trade. Can't trust him to build properly around the core. A core who can carry a franchise to record setting points. Has no idea how to offset the fact his no.1 defenceman isn't really that good at defence. We can't clear the crease or box out around the net.

Point of post: So do you even trust him going all in? I don't. Let's see what we have in these prospects. It might be only thing good he leaves us when it's all said and done and development kick in since they do have nice profiles post draft.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Dubas’ philosophy as always been to be good now and in the future. He’s said that himself. He really doesn’t seem to be the guy to go all in, however he has shown some willingness to make moves.

If he becomes more confident that our team can make it out of the first round, he’ll do it. This also likely has more to do with the teams in our division rather than his confidence in our teams ability. We’ve never been first in our division - if we are maybe he’ll make a big splash. Very well could be this year.

My only hope if we do nothing is we go into the year with cap space and by the TDL we have enough to add a significant piece. But then it is only for a few months, which is why I feel it's better to just do it now and get the full season and then at the TDL we can add depth and not the other way around.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Anyone of us that have watched the last 40 years of Leafs let alone the last 6 years of 1st round failure has patience as far as I’m concerned. Lol

They should have patience. We can't do anything about the team anyway. We should just enjoy the games as they come. The more games, the better.

 

[Apotheosis]

The team is flawed and Dubas is conservative while sticking way too much to analytics. The Leafs should have never thought they were better than they were in 2017 and 2018. They weren't done drafting IMO. They still lack a true number 1 D which literally every recent cup winner has/had. Rielly is not that guy and we could have drafted one in the past 5 years if they didn't think they were magically a contender just because of an overachieving year which made them think that signing an 11 million dollar a year albatross contract to someone who couldn't skate was a good idea.

 

[HockeyVirus]

The team is flawed and Dubas is conservative while sticking way too much to analytics. The Leafs should have never thought they were better than they were in 2017 and 2018. They weren't done drafting IMO. They still lack a true number 1 D which literally every recent cup winner has/had. Rielly is not that guy and we could have drafted one in the past 5 years if they didn't think they were magically a contender just because of an overachieving year which made them think that signing an 11 million dollar a year albatross contract to someone who couldn't skate was a good idea.

WTF is this take. Did you want the GM to actively tank and trade players while we were in a playoff spot? You think that would make our core players happy who we want to sign with us?

Are you forgetting that at that time, we were 1 year removed from being a laughing stock bottom feeder who couldn't sniff the playoffs by March for a decade? And after all the work the franchise did in clearing out losers from management and rebuilding the roster, which was finally a playoff team, you wanted to tank to get who exactly? Because even if we dealt all our pending UFA's we would not be bottom 5. We'd be drafting 10-15.

What a horrid take from you, uncharacistically so.

 

[Apotheosis]

WTF is this take. Did you want the GM to actively tank and trade players while we were in a playoff spot? You think that would make our core players happy who we want to sign with us?

Are you forgetting that at that time, we were 1 year removed from being a laughing stock bottom feeder who couldn't sniff the playoffs by March? And after all the work the franchise did in clearing out losers from management and rebuilding the roster, which was finally a playoff team, you wanted to tank to get who exactly? Because even if we dealt all our pending UFA's we would not be bottom 5. We'd be drafting 10-15.

What a horrid take from you, uncharacistically so.

No, I did not want to actively tank at that point. It would have been way too blatant. But as currently constructed, the team is flawed. Top heavy with no true number 1. Unironically our biggest strength (graduating Nylander-Marner-Matthews in the same season) was the same reason why the team is in the position it is now. Bad cap management (Tavares signing) and still no number 1 D.

 

[Havoc]

We already went all in when we got Tavares for free.

Still waiting to see if Dubas can close. He gets a huge fat grade of F from me I honestly have no idea what we can claim as great from Dubas.

I mean how more spoiled do you need to be inheriting matthews marner nylander then having to give up ZERO draft capital when "going all in" for Tavares.

 

[Madap]

My only hope if we do nothing is we go into the year with cap space and by the TDL we have enough to add a significant piece. But then it is only for a few months, which is why I feel it's better to just do it now and get the full season and then at the TDL we can add depth and not the other way around.

Yeah I get that too, but i think it’s time we give a shot to one of our young guns (Robertson likely). Hopefully they run with it. If doesn’t work then we can add at the deadline.