Why Russia can not win the all-star tournament in 1981?

[NyQuil]

This is not patriotism, this is pure bull***t, or just trolling. I suspect trolling.
But! This is not really far from general opinion about WC's in Russia, and that must be one of the problems of Russian hockey nowadays.
Where one might see victories (not even dominating ones) in a second-rate tournament with the best roster availible, Russia's hockey officials see signs of "Soviet red machine coming back". And what's worse - this outrageous lie is spoon-fed to masses.
Without realization, that our team is not by a long shot a competitor at Olympics, there will be no progress.
Sure, team Russia has names. But names don't win, teams do.

I absolutely love Tarasenko,Kuznetsov, Panarin, I think that Bob is a pretty good goalie, but I just can't see Russia competing, not right now. What this team needs is coaching, real NHL-caliber coaching. So far, professional coaching in all of Russian team sports is a big problem.

As for Kovalchuk -
Ahh, Kovalchuk! An ideal example of a name playing, not a player. A man long past his prime, who somehow manages not only to show on roster, but actually hold a C badge. And you know why? Because of those two goals at 2008th WC finals against Canada.

Sorry for a long post. Tl;dr - Rus has great players, doesn't have a team right now.

It's nice to see that some people are looking at the underlying issues.

 

[xxxx]

Russia needs better defensemen, but what was the problem against Finland in Sochi? Surprisingly, offence. Russian superstars scored all together only one goal in the most important game.

In my opinion, Russia shouldn't want to win 1-0, but rather 6-4.

 

[Jussi]

Russia needs better defensemen, but what was the problem against Finland in Sochi? Surprisingly, offence. Russian superstars scored all together only one goal in the most important game.

In my opinion, Russia shouldn't want to win 1-0, but rather 6-4.

That's because Bilyaletdinov didn't have any tactical answers for our system. For the last ~5 years we've known that Russia lives off of having the puck. When you deny them of that, they don't know what to do. In today's international hockey, it doesn't require elite level defensemen to play puck possession hockey. As long as all on-ice units know how to place themselves or players make themselves playable, it can be done with even EHT level defensemen.

 

[Jussi]

As mr. Yakushev72 here is my compatriot, let me apologize for his passive-agressive behaviour and delusions of grandeour:

This is not patriotism, this is pure bull***t, or just trolling. I suspect trolling.
But! This is not really far from general opinion about WC's in Russia, and that must be one of the problems of Russian hockey nowadays.
Where one might see victories (not even dominating ones) in a second-rate tournament with the best roster availible, Russia's hockey officials see signs of "Soviet red machine coming back". And what's worse - this outrageous lie is spoon-fed to masses.
Without realization, that our team is not by a long shot a competitor at Olympics, there will be no progress.
Sure, team Russia has names. But names don't win, teams do.

I absolutely love Tarasenko,Kuznetsov, Panarin, I think that Bob is a pretty good goalie, but I just can't see Russia competing, not right now. What this team needs is coaching, real NHL-caliber coaching. So far, professional coaching in all of Russian team sports is a big problem.

As for Kovalchuk -
Ahh, Kovalchuk! An ideal example of a name playing, not a player. A man long past his prime, who somehow manages not only to show on roster, but actually hold a C badge. And you know why? Because of those two goals at 2008th WC finals against Canada.

Sorry for a long post. Tl;dr - Rus has great players, doesn't have a team right now.

Great post.

About the bolded part, how come only the basketball fed has had the guts to use a foreign/NA coach? I won't bring Capello into this, everyone knew he was a bad choice.

 

[NyQuil]

What's interesting is that Bragin appears to be a great coach of the Junior team.

 

[ViD]

As mr. Yakushev72 here is my compatriot, let me apologize for his passive-agressive behaviour and delusions of grandeour:

This is not patriotism, this is pure bull***t, or just trolling. I suspect trolling.
But! This is not really far from general opinion about WC's in Russia, and that must be one of the problems of Russian hockey nowadays.
Where one might see victories (not even dominating ones) in a second-rate tournament with the best roster availible, Russia's hockey officials see signs of "Soviet red machine coming back". And what's worse - this outrageous lie is spoon-fed to masses.
Without realization, that our team is not by a long shot a competitor at Olympics, there will be no progress.
Sure, team Russia has names. But names don't win, teams do.

I absolutely love Tarasenko,Kuznetsov, Panarin, I think that Bob is a pretty good goalie, but I just can't see Russia competing, not right now. What this team needs is coaching, real NHL-caliber coaching. So far, professional coaching in all of Russian team sports is a big problem.

As for Kovalchuk -
Ahh, Kovalchuk! An ideal example of a name playing, not a player. A man long past his prime, who somehow manages not only to show on roster, but actually hold a C badge. And you know why? Because of those two goals at 2008th WC finals against Canada.

Sorry for a long post. Tl;dr - Rus has great players, doesn't have a team right now.

Well, we also need to keep in mind that Olympics is an incredibly short tournament, where players have absolutely no time to develop chemistry, it needs to be there at get-go.

So, in my opinion, Russia definitely has players to win the Olympic medal, but there's two things that are needed from the coaching staff - smart team play and motivation. This is the most important in those short tourneys.

 

[ViD]

Great post.

About the bolded part, how come only the basketball fed has had the guts to use a foreign/NA coach? I won't bring Capello into this, everyone knew he was a bad choice.

Russia has had success with foreign coaches in soccer - Hiddink and Advocaat to a degree.

 

[Valdiz]

Great post.

About the bolded part, how come only the basketball fed has had the guts to use a foreign/NA coach? I won't bring Capello into this, everyone knew he was a bad choice.

I guess there is not much pressure on the basketball federation, therefore, they are free to do the right thing. I may be wrong. What I do know,is that in "important" team sports, e.g. hockey, the fed does whatever the Big Cheese says (usually it's mr. Mutko, the "let me speak from my heart" guy, or Tretiak), meaning that there is no system, that the choice is biased, etc.

What's interesting is that Bragin appears to be a great coach of the Junior team.

Its a shame that he, for whatever reason, cannot succed with older teams. In the span of last ten years he got fired twice, hasn't really achieved anything in KHL, at least yet.
But when he coaches the juniors, man, his team is disciplined, has cojones, and knows exactly what to do.

 

[Valdiz]

Well, we also need to keep in mind that Olympics is an incredibly short tournament, where players have absolutely no time to develop chemistry, it needs to be there at get-go.

So, in my opinion, Russia definitely has players to win the Olympic medal, but there's two things that are needed from the coaching staff - smart team play and motivation. This is the most important in those short tourneys.

Absolutely agree about the motivation part, it was certainly lacking in Sochi.
And team play too.

 

[Khomutov]

I dont believe somebody in russian hockey federation didnt make any serious analysis of that blowouts against Canada.

You should believe that. Because the federation is a bunch of non-professionals.

 

[Khomutov]

As for Kovalchuk -
Ahh, Kovalchuk! An ideal example of a name playing, not a player. A man long past his prime, who somehow manages not only to show on roster, but actually hold a C badge. And you know why? Because of those two goals at 2008th WC finals against Canada.

What? He was the best player at the WC 09, had a great NHL career, lead the Devils to the SCF in 2012. Last year he won the Gagarin Cup as the captain of SKA.

I mean sure he is past his prime, and maybe not a top 6 forward in the National Team. But i think he still can be a important part of Team Russia.

 

[Zine]

The issue isn't talent. Even with our thin defense we ought to regularly compete for gold, and win one here and there.

The problem is our Federation's reluctance to change. They value conviction over common sense. They'd rather drive the program off a cliff by doing it the 'Russian way' than make any meaningful liberal changes to the system and, god forbid, win a best on best in the process.

 

[Khomutov]

The issue isn't talent. Even with our thin defense we ought to regularly compete for gold, and win one here and there.

The problem is our Federation's reluctance to change. They value conviction over common sense. They'd rather drive the program off a cliff by doing it the 'Russian way' than make any meaningful liberal changes to the system and, god forbid, win a best on best in the process.

This and bad coaching. It´s just depressing.

Ovechkin, Malkin and Kovalchuk maybe will end their career without a Olympic Gold or even a medal.

Hoping for our next generation with Kuznetsov and Tarasenko.

 

[Zine]

This and bad coaching. It´s just depressing.

Ovechkin, Malkin and Kovalchuk maybe will end their career without a Olympic Gold or even a medal.

Hoping for our next generation with Kuznetsov and Tarasenko.

Bad coaching is just a symptom of the Federation's overall reluctance to change and/or learn from other countries.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I would put Namestnikov with Kucherov and keep Mozyakin away.

As a Canadian who respects the Russians' offensive capabilities, I would agree with both of these things.

Mozyakin best player in the KHL right now

Mozyakin is usually weak internationally, whenever I see him play. He looked pretty bad when I saw him live at the WC in Canada years ago, which was in his prime, after his career best year in the KHL. On small North American ice at age 35, I doubt he will be very useful.

 

[WMT]

Different reasons. In my opinion, 1987 Canada Cup was the best hockey ever played and we had the best team in history with Gretzky and Lemieux and still USSR had the game on their stick in the first overtime of game 2. They decided to be too fancy. Larionov could have scored, instead he gave the puck to Krutov and he couldn't put it behind Fuhr.

If we look at recent Olympics I would say Russia couldn't create a team. In Torino they thought they won it all after they beat Canada and got Finland in the semis, and as a result they couldn't even get bronze.

In Vancouver Canada was just too good and in Sochi coach seemed to be the issue. His style didn't work and he refused to make changes during the tournament.

 

[Jablkon]

Russia is very top-heavy when it comes to offensive talent. Their top line of forwards can play with (and perhaps even outplay) any top line in the world. The problem with this though is that it makes them a bit easier to deal with. Canada can counter with an equal top line, but have a better defensive pairing, forcing the talented Russians to play in their own end for much of the time. Or Canada can put out a suffocating checking line that limits their good scoring chances. When Canada concentrates on total team defence like they did in 2014, and they have a net-minder like Price, it'll be hard for any team to get more than 2 goals on them.

Sure, but I still bet they have to be certain that guys like Perry, Tavares etc are able to handle bottom six roles and follow tactics. Otherwise they would rather pick some role players there. On the other side, I see Kovalchuk in russian third line, god knows, what he is doing there etc....Not saying that Russia would beat Canada, but I dont see any options and flexibility in their game. Have to add they often look unconcetrate....

 

[Jussi]

I guess there is not much pressure on the basketball federation, therefore, they are free to do the right thing. I may be wrong. What I do know,is that in "important" team sports, e.g. hockey, the fed does whatever the Big Cheese says (usually it's mr. Mutko, the "let me speak from my heart" guy, or Tretiak), meaning that there is no system, that the choice is biased, etc.


Its a shame that he, for whatever reason, cannot succed with older teams. In the span of last ten years he got fired twice, hasn't really achieved anything in KHL, at least yet.
But when he coaches the juniors, man, his team is disciplined, has cojones, and knows exactly what to do.

Has he ever been an assistant with the senior national team?

 

[Yakushev72]

As mr. Yakushev72 here is my compatriot, let me apologize for his passive-agressive behaviour and delusions of grandeour:

This is not patriotism, this is pure bull***t, or just trolling. I suspect trolling.
But! This is not really far from general opinion about WC's in Russia, and that must be one of the problems of Russian hockey nowadays.
Where one might see victories (not even dominating ones) in a second-rate tournament with the best roster availible, Russia's hockey officials see signs of "Soviet red machine coming back". And what's worse - this outrageous lie is spoon-fed to masses.
Without realization, that our team is not by a long shot a competitor at Olympics, there will be no progress.
Sure, team Russia has names. But names don't win, teams do.

I absolutely love Tarasenko,Kuznetsov, Panarin, I think that Bob is a pretty good goalie, but I just can't see Russia competing, not right now. What this team needs is coaching, real NHL-caliber coaching. So far, professional coaching in all of Russian team sports is a big problem.

As for Kovalchuk -
Ahh, Kovalchuk! An ideal example of a name playing, not a player. A man long past his prime, who somehow manages not only to show on roster, but actually hold a C badge. And you know why? Because of those two goals at 2008th WC finals against Canada.

Sorry for a long post. Tl;dr - Rus has great players, doesn't have a team right now.

Please go back to my original statements, which were that the Russian hockey program experienced a sudden and severe decline after 1991, bordering on a total collapse, but that some signs of renewal are evident in: (1) the fact that, after failing to win a World Championship from 1993-2008, Russia has since won 4 of the last 8 (not delusional, pure fact - check the records), and (2) in the current decade of 2011-20, the Russian U20 national team has performed better than any other national team with 1 Gold Medal, 3 Silver Medals, and 2 Bronze Medals. Again, pure fact.

My factual comments erupted a storm from the usual critics of Russia, Jack Slater and Jussi, who don't appreciate it when some positive comments about Russia are made. The problem with your post is that you obviously looked at the last 2 or 3 comments and made a mistaken judgment about the nature of the discussion. Can you really see into the future and accurately proclaim that there is no hope that Russia will ever recover and challenge for championships because you declare it to be true? Do you really think that the only thing separating Russia and world hockey dominance is a good coach? If so, that seems like a pretty shallow analysis!

 

[JackSlater]

Please go back to my original statements, which were that the Russian hockey program experienced a sudden and severe decline after 1991, bordering on a total collapse, but that some signs of renewal are evident in: (1) the fact that, after failing to win a World Championship from 1993-2008, Russia has since won 4 of the last 8 (not delusional, pure fact - check the records), and (2) in the current decade of 2011-20, the Russian U20 national team has performed better than any other national team with 1 Gold Medal, 3 Silver Medals, and 2 Bronze Medals. Again, pure fact.

My factual comments erupted a storm from the usual critics of Russia, Jack Slater and Jussi, who don't appreciate it when some positive comments about Russia are made. The problem with your post is that you obviously looked at the last 2 or 3 comments and made a mistaken judgment about the nature of the discussion. Can you really see into the future and accurately proclaim that there is no hope that Russia will ever recover and challenge for championships because you declare it to be true? Do you really think that the only thing separating Russia and world hockey dominance is a good coach? If so, that seems like a pretty shallow analysis!

No one disagreed that Russia won those tournaments, you should probably re-read the statements. I, and most others in the thread seemingly, disagree with you about the significance of those wins, given the fact that Russia gets a significantly higher percentage of its best players at that tournament than do Canada/USA/Sweden/Finland. I also disagreed with the patently absurd rationalization you've created to soothe yourself after Canada beat Russia in the 2015 WC - that the 2015 Canadian team was more than half of Canada's best possible roster.

If, as has been suggested by some Russian posters in this very thread, the Russian officials share the views of Yakushev72, then we can see one of Russia's problems with regard to best on best competition. Namely, an inability to accurately assess the state of Russian hockey relative to other countries. Russia of course is still capable of winning a tournament when the best players actually participate, but it isn't particularly close to being a favourite.

 

[Yakushev72]

No one disagreed that Russia won those tournaments, you should probably re-read the statements. I, and most others in the thread seemingly, disagree with you about the significance of those wins, given the fact that Russia gets a significantly higher percentage of its best players at that tournament than do Canada/USA/Sweden/Finland. I also disagreed with the patently absurd rationalization you've created to soothe yourself after Canada beat Russia in the 2015 WC - that the 2015 Canadian team was more than half of Canada's best possible roster.

If, as has been suggested by some Russian posters in this very thread, the Russian officials share the views of Yakushev72, then we can see one of Russia's problems with regard to best on best competition. Namely, an inability to accurately assess the state of Russian hockey relative to other countries. Russia of course is still capable of winning a tournament when the best players actually participate, but it isn't particularly close to being a favourite.

Of course Russian officials are realistic about the country's ability to compete with Canada, for instance. Canada has an overwhelming numerical advantage in every aspect of hockey resources - for example, Canada overwhelms Russia 8-1 in the number of hockey players, and 6-1 in the number of indoor ice rinks. So, comparatively speaking, Russia has very few guys that play hockey, and there is almost no place for them to skate if they want to. Comparatively, Russia is an impoverished nation in comparison to Canada, the U.S., Sweden and Finland, and the economic future looks even more bleak than the past. It would be completely irresponsible to invest resources in hockey when they are drastically needed in more important areas. Russian hockey officials are all too well aware of these facts!

They may be far behind Canada and the US in the basic ability to compete, but Russia is about at the same level as Sweden and Finland in the numerical terms of fundamental hockey resources. Being No. 1 in the world is better than being No. 1 in Europe, but continued incremental improvement could legitimately lead to Russia overtaking Sweden and Finland within the next 5 to 10 years. That would be a very good goal to achieve, and much more realistic as well.

 

[vorky]

I wrote it in another thread and will repeat myself here. It is too early to judge, but it seems russian hockey federation is serious about improvement of hockey development. They want to learn from other countries and CCCP hockey system. Tretyak is still president, too bad, but IMO real head is Arkadi Rotenberg and his guys. They want to change methodics for developing hockey players, educate refs and coaches, build new rinks etc. Hoping for results in 5-10 years... as I said, too early to judge, but I can see positive movement in russian hockey federation.

 

[Yakushev72]

I wrote it in another thread and will repeat myself here. It is too early to judge, but it seems russian hockey federation is serious about improvement of hockey development. They want to learn from other countries and CCCP hockey system. Tretyak is still president, too bad, but IMO real head is Arkadi Rotenberg and his guys. They want to change methodics for developing hockey players, educate refs and coaches, build new rinks etc. Hoping for results in 5-10 years... as I said, too early to judge, but I can see positive movement in russian hockey federation.

I agree with you! There is some evidence of more positive push from others like Rotenberg who say that Tretiak has sat on his hands and dwelled in the past for far too long. For the KHL to maintain, and ultimately grow, there is no other alternative to increased development of players from within the member nations, and that means that Russia has to greatly increase production. Luckily, participations levels now are so low that triple or quadruple the levels are realistic over time. Few other existing hockey nations can say the same.

 

[Jussi]

I agree with you! There is some evidence of more positive push from others like Rotenberg who say that Tretiak has sat on his hands and dwelled in the past for far too long. For the KHL to maintain, and ultimately grow, there is no other alternative to increased development of players from within the member nations, and that means that Russia has to greatly increase production. Luckily, participations levels now are so low that triple or quadruple the levels are realistic over time. Few other existing hockey nations can say the same.

You have clearly the most players (differences in registering players included) in Europe and the clear 3rd behind Canada and US...

 

[Yakushev72]

Different reasons. In my opinion, 1987 Canada Cup was the best hockey ever played and we had the best team in history with Gretzky and Lemieux and still USSR had the game on their stick in the first overtime of game 2. They decided to be too fancy. Larionov could have scored, instead he gave the puck to Krutov and he couldn't put it behind Fuhr.

If we look at recent Olympics I would say Russia couldn't create a team. In Torino they thought they won it all after they beat Canada and got Finland in the semis, and as a result they couldn't even get bronze.

In Vancouver Canada was just too good and in Sochi coach seemed to be the issue. His style didn't work and he refused to make changes during the tournament.

Torino was probably the lowest of the low points of Russian hockey. It was a terrible Russian team. Same thing in 2010 and 2014, a few outstanding players, better than 2006, but overall, inadequate depth and quality to compete for a medal. In Vancouver, it was a total breakdown of goaltending, but overall, lack of depth and any form of team cohesion. They came so close to beating the USA in Sochi, and if they had, they might have ended up with a medal.