Why Russia can not win the all-star tournament in 1981?

[Jussi]

What does that mean? I don't know how a "huge roster advantage" should be defined. And after you've explained that, also take us through a "huge reffing advantage." On the surface, that kind of sounds like sour grapes.

Russia had basically all their best NHL players taking part. Compare the rosters between Finland and Russia in 2014. The reffing advantage refers to the non-call on Malkin highstick that should've gotten him ejected.

 

[traffic cone]

I think Russia should try a Finnish coach. They've done pretty well in the KHL in the past.

Someone like Jukka Jalonen, Kari Jalonen or Raimo Summanen.

 

[JackSlater]

In terms of a "roster advantage," Russia clearly had one in the 2012 WC's, with a line of Datsyuk-Ovechkin-Semin, and Malkin on another line. And the 2014 team had Ovechkin and Malkin for the last 3 games, but it is only an advantage if the surrounding group is top-line as well. In 2015, you could say that Canada had a "roster advantage," because they had mostly national team candidates on the team, while Russia, with Malkin and Tarasenko (they had an exhausted Ovechkin for the last 2 games, just 30 hours after skating off the ice in Game 7 of a Stanley Cup semi-final), lost a total of 3 games. Having the offensive skills of Malkin and Ovechkin is of no value if they are playing defense in the defensive zone for 80% of the game. And how does that rebut my point that the performance of the Russians is far better now than in the 1990 and 2000 Decade?

The Russian team in the 2015 IIHF World Championship was closer to the best Russian team than the Canadian team in that tournament was to the best Canadian team. Russia has a higher percentage of its best players than other countries do basically every year. USA is lucky if it gets one Olympic level player in any given year. When Russia didn't get far more of its best players than other countries did (pre-Ovechkin generation) its performance at the WC was not noteworthy.

 

[Fantomas]

This is not complicated. The Soviet Union fell. Russia underwent an economic and spiritual crisis. The hockey system there is still recovering.

The first step here is to figure out how to keep young talent developing at home. Functioning as a farm system for North America is a major problem for Russia.

 

[Yakushev72]

The Russian team in the 2015 IIHF World Championship was closer to the best Russian team than the Canadian team in that tournament was to the best Canadian team. Russia has a higher percentage of its best players than other countries do basically every year. USA is lucky if it gets one Olympic level player in any given year. When Russia didn't get far more of its best players than other countries did (pre-Ovechkin generation) its performance at the WC was not noteworthy.

I'm tired of debating this with you, although your efforts to downplay the ranking of the Canadian 2015 team is laughable! I am certain that at least 60% of the 2015 Canadian roster will represent Canada in the World Cup, and the Olympics, if they show up. But you won't find 60% of the Russian 2015 roster on either team.

 

[jj cale]

Last two though were the result of having a huge roster advantage comapred to other teams/finalists. Last final they also had the reffing advantage.

For a person who fought so hard against claims that the reffing favoured the Finns at this past WJC you should not be resorting to the same tactic and saying that Russian win was due to reffing.

 

[Jussi]

For a person who fought so hard against claims that the reffing favoured the Finns at this past WJC you should not be resorting to the same tactic and saying that Russian win was due to reffing.

I guess you didn't zee ze incident? The Malkin highstick happened verya early in the match and had we gotten a 5 minute powerplay, it could have changed the the entire script for the game. I'm just saying the refs effed up that incident in a major way, not that the whole game was called in favor of Russia.

 

[jj cale]

I guess you didn't zee ze incident? The Malkin highstick happened verya early in the match and had we gotten a 5 minute powerplay, it could have changed the the entire script for the game. I'm just saying the refs effed up that incident in a major way, not that the whole game was called in favor of Russia.

I saw it, but it does not change my point.

 

[Jussi]

I saw it, but it does not change my point.

Then you should understand the difference. Russians posters claim the refs faored Finalnd, were proven wrong. Everyone could see from the video the refs botched the call on Malkin in the 2014 final. Again, what is your major malfunction?

 

[JackSlater]

I'm tired of debating this with you, although your efforts to downplay the ranking of the Canadian 2015 team is laughable! I am certain that at least 60% of the 2015 Canadian roster will represent Canada in the World Cup, and the Olympics, if they show up. But you won't find 60% of the Russian 2015 roster on either team.

I know this is sad to hear, but that Russian team was much closer to Russia's best than the Canadian team was to Canada's best. If we look at the 2014 Olympics, the closest best on best tournament...

Russia: 10 players (Bobrovsky, Medvedev, Belov, Malkin, Ovechkin, Tarasenko, Kulemin, Kovalchuk, Tikhonov, Anisimov)

Canada: 4 players (Smith, Hamhuis, Crosby, Duchene)

Both teams had their number one centres. Russia had its three best players - Canada had one. Russia had its starting goaltender, Canada certainly did not (Smith will never touch a best on best roster again, and did not play for Canada in 2014). Canada had its seventh defenceman (Hamhuis didn't play in every game for Canada in 2014) and its 13th/14th forward (Duchene sat out some games in 2014, until Tavares was injured). These are all facts.

Canada added some Olympic calibre players to that roster in Giroux, Hall, O'Reilly, Seguin and maybe Burns. Russia added an obvious lock in Panarin to the 2015 team. Best case scenario is that Canada uses 7 players from that team at the 2016 World Cup (Crosby, Duchene, O'Reilly, Hall, Giroux, Seguin, Burns). Possibly MacKinnon would make it if there was no idiotic age rule in place. 7/23 is 30% of Canada's A team players, at best. It might hurt, but that Canadian team was still very far from Canada's best. The truth is that Canada getting even 30% of its optimal roster is basically a best case scenario. That's a far cry from what we usually see from Russia, which once again isn't an unfair advantage to Russia.

 

[jj cale]

Then you should understand the difference. Russians posters claim the refs faored Finalnd, were proven wrong. Everyone could see from the video the refs botched the call on Malkin in the 2014 final. Again, what is your major malfunction?

There is a million calls over the years where refs could be proven wrong and if you want you can blame the game loss on it, which is what a lot of fans do here.

There is always "a difference" when it goes for or against the team you cheer for. Just look at some, and i do say some, of the Russians fans thoughts on the reffing they claim favored Finland in the gold medal game, they think they can prove bias and show the "difference" also.

Bottom line, if you want to look solid when you argue that reffing didnt favor your team you need to be the kind of fan who doesn't cry foul when reffing doesnt quite go the way you would like it for your team.

If not, it's just biased fluff.

 

[Namba 17]

This is not complicated. The Soviet Union fell. Russia underwent an economic and spiritual crisis. The hockey system there is still recovering.

The first step here is to figure out how to keep young talent developing at home. Functioning as a farm system for North America is a major problem for Russia.

This.
Not only Western, but young Russians don't understand what was going on in Russia in 90th. It was nightmare. It's wonder that we are competitive so far, not that we can't win smth.

 

[Yakushev72]

I know this is sad to hear, but that Russian team was much closer to Russia's best than the Canadian team was to Canada's best. If we look at the 2014 Olympics, the closest best on best tournament...

Russia: 10 players (Bobrovsky, Medvedev, Belov, Malkin, Ovechkin, Tarasenko, Kulemin, Kovalchuk, Tikhonov, Anisimov)

Canada: 4 players (Smith, Hamhuis, Crosby, Duchene)

Both teams had their number one centres. Russia had its three best players - Canada had one. Russia had its starting goaltender, Canada certainly did not (Smith will never touch a best on best roster again, and did not play for Canada in 2014). Canada had its seventh defenceman (Hamhuis didn't play in every game for Canada in 2014) and its 13th/14th forward (Duchene sat out some games in 2014, until Tavares was injured). These are all facts.

Canada added some Olympic calibre players to that roster in Giroux, Hall, O'Reilly, Seguin and maybe Burns. Russia added an obvious lock in Panarin to the 2015 team. Best case scenario is that Canada uses 7 players from that team at the 2016 World Cup (Crosby, Duchene, O'Reilly, Hall, Giroux, Seguin, Burns). Possibly MacKinnon would make it if there was no idiotic age rule in place. 7/23 is 30% of Canada's A team players, at best. It might hurt, but that Canadian team was still very far from Canada's best. The truth is that Canada getting even 30% of its optimal roster is basically a best case scenario. That's a far cry from what we usually see from Russia, which once again isn't an unfair advantage to Russia.

That is pure conjecture on your part. You have to focus on the facts. Currently, 3 of the top 15 goal scorers in the NHL are Canadians. Of the 3 Canadians among the top 15 goal scorers - Benn, Seguin and Taylor Hall - 66% played on the 2015 Canadian WC team. There is conceivably no way that at least 66% of the 2018 Canadian Olympic team won't have been members of the 2015 WC team.

In the end, what is important is what the historians will write 50 years from now: "In the era of 2008-16, Russia dominated the world championships of the sport of ice hockey by winning the World Championships sponsored every year by the governing body of the world sport of ice hockey, the IIHF. The nations of Finland, Sweden and Canada also participated in World Championship tournaments, and won individual championships, respectively, in 2011, 2013 and 2015."

 

[Kshahdoo]

Nowadays it's mentality. I remember our losses to Canadians in 1984 and 1987. It was like a total disaster, the end of the world. To lose to the best possible Team Canada on its ice under its officiating. We were beat like a bush league team by not the best Canada team in the last WHC, and everybody was talking like how it's good that we're the 2nd in the world. It's a big success blah-blah... I hate this 2nd tier team mentality, but it looks like people are ok with it. So we'll never win anything anytime soon.

 

[JackSlater]

That is pure conjecture on your part. You have to focus on the facts. Currently, 3 of the top 15 goal scorers in the NHL are Canadians. Of the 3 Canadians among the top 15 goal scorers - Benn, Seguin and Taylor Hall - 66% played on the 2015 Canadian WC team. There is conceivably no way that at least 66% of the 2018 Canadian Olympic team won't have been members of the 2015 WC team.

This is laughable. I, unlike yourself, focused on facts when I cited the most recent best on best tournament and showed how few Canadians from the 2015 team were there. The second part is indeed speculation, but it's speculation based on having knowledge of the Canadian players, which you clearly do not. No one in their right mind would conclude that the 2015 team had anywhere near 66% of Canada's next Olympic/best on best team. Take a look at any reasonable projection and I guarantee you won't see even 50% of that team, and probably not above 40%.

In the end, what is important is what the historians will write 50 years from now: "In the era of 2008-16, Russia dominated the world championships of the sport of ice hockey by winning the World Championships sponsored every year by the governing body of the world sport of ice hockey, the IIHF. The nations of Finland, Sweden and Canada also participated in World Championship tournaments, and won individual championships, respectively, in 2011, 2013 and 2015."

That will be nice for those who care about those rather hollow results. They might wonder why Russia was unable to come close to winning a tournament featuring the world's best players over that span though. I would hope that most Russians are not satisfied by these achievements. Actually, if those making the decisions in the Russian hockey federation are satisfied with those results, it might partially explain the very topic of this thread.

 

[Canuckistani]

That will be nice for those who care about those rather hollow results. They might wonder why Russia was unable to come close to winning a tournament featuring the world's best players over that span though. I would hope that most Russians are not satisfied by these achievements.

Part of what made the failures in 2010 and 2014 so shocking to Russian fans was the fact that they thought their wins at the WHC signaled a return to Soviet-era dominance.

They badly underestimated the difference in quality between the WHC and the Olympics.

 

[NyQuil]

In the end, what is important is what the Russian historians will write 50 years from now: "In the era of 2008-16, Russia dominated the world championships of the sport of ice hockey by winning the World Championships sponsored every year by the governing body of the world sport of ice hockey, the IIHF. The nations of Finland, Sweden and Canada also participated in World Championship tournaments, and won individual championships, respectively, in 2011, 2013 and 2015."

Now that's adorable.

 

[Canuckistani]

In the end, what is important is what the historians will write 50 years from now: "In the era of 2008-16, Russia dominated the world championships of the sport of ice hockey by winning the World Championships sponsored every year by the governing body of the world sport of ice hockey, the IIHF. The nations of Finland, Sweden and Canada also participated in World Championship tournaments, and won individual championships, respectively, in 2011, 2013 and 2015."

But is that what's important to you and other Russian fans?

 

[Jussi]

Now that's adorable.

Also missed that the Czechs won in 2010...

 

[Jablkon]

Nowadays it's mentality. I remember our losses to Canadians in 1984 and 1987. It was like a total disaster, the end of the world. To lose to the best possible Team Canada on its ice under its officiating. We were beat like a bush league team by not the best Canada team in the last WHC, and everybody was talking like how it's good that we're the 2nd in the world. It's a big success blah-blah... I hate this 2nd tier team mentality, but it looks like people are ok with it. So we'll never win anything anytime soon.

I dont believe somebody in russian hockey federation didnt make any serious analysis of that blowouts against Canada. When czechs can keep it 0:2, I wouldnt be definetely satisfied with 1:6. Sure, that defence issues, but than it should be 4:7. being 2nd at worlds could also mean you are 4th or 5th overal, when USA can not be counted here and Sweden is ussually not that strong. With such offensive firepower, I wouldnt be satisfied with that. Despite that lack of deffensive elite talent I always have a feeling that many things can be done better by that russian teams.

 

[NyQuil]

Also missed that the Czechs won in 2010...

That was quite the upset.

 

[Caser]

Part of what made the failures in 2010 and 2014 so shocking to Russian fans was the fact that they thought their wins at the WHC signaled a return to Soviet-era dominance.

They badly underestimated the difference in quality between the WHC and the Olympics.

No, that's oversimplifying things. We expected to be challengers for medals and, hopefully, gold, nobody thought about the dominance. And the shock came not from the loss itself, but from the way we lost.

 

[Thenameless]

I dont believe somebody in russian hockey federation didnt make any serious analysis of that blowouts against Canada. When czechs can keep it 0:2, I wouldnt be definetely satisfied with 1:6. Sure, that defence issues, but than it should be 4:7. being 2nd at worlds could also mean you are 4th or 5th overal, when USA can not be counted here and Sweden is ussually not that strong. With such offensive firepower, I wouldnt be satisfied with that. Despite that lack of deffensive elite talent I always have a feeling that many things can be done better by that russian teams.

Russia is very top-heavy when it comes to offensive talent. Their top line of forwards can play with (and perhaps even outplay) any top line in the world. The problem with this though is that it makes them a bit easier to deal with. Canada can counter with an equal top line, but have a better defensive pairing, forcing the talented Russians to play in their own end for much of the time. Or Canada can put out a suffocating checking line that limits their good scoring chances. When Canada concentrates on total team defence like they did in 2014, and they have a net-minder like Price, it'll be hard for any team to get more than 2 goals on them.

 

[Valdiz]

As mr. Yakushev72 here is my compatriot, let me apologize for his passive-agressive behaviour and delusions of grandeour:

In the end, what is important is what the historians will write 50 years from now: "In the era of 2008-16, Russia dominated the world championships of the sport of ice hockey by winning the World Championships sponsored every year by the governing body of the world sport of ice hockey, the IIHF. The nations of Finland, Sweden and Canada also participated in World Championship tournaments, and won individual championships, respectively, in 2011, 2013 and 2015."

This is not patriotism, this is pure bull***t, or just trolling. I suspect trolling.
But! This is not really far from general opinion about WC's in Russia, and that must be one of the problems of Russian hockey nowadays.
Where one might see victories (not even dominating ones) in a second-rate tournament with the best roster availible, Russia's hockey officials see signs of "Soviet red machine coming back". And what's worse - this outrageous lie is spoon-fed to masses.
Without realization, that our team is not by a long shot a competitor at Olympics, there will be no progress.
Sure, team Russia has names. But names don't win, teams do.

I absolutely love Tarasenko,Kuznetsov, Panarin, I think that Bob is a pretty good goalie, but I just can't see Russia competing, not right now. What this team needs is coaching, real NHL-caliber coaching. So far, professional coaching in all of Russian team sports is a big problem.

As for Kovalchuk -
Ahh, Kovalchuk! An ideal example of a name playing, not a player. A man long past his prime, who somehow manages not only to show on roster, but actually hold a C badge. And you know why? Because of those two goals at 2008th WC finals against Canada.

Sorry for a long post. Tl;dr - Rus has great players, doesn't have a team right now.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Because they aren't a top 5 hockey nation anymore not only have they not medaled but their pro team hasn't medaled in a tournament that matters since 2002.

If they don't medal in the World Cup then they need to have a summit like we did