Why Mark Messier is Often Regarded the Worst/Most Hated Vancouver Canuck of All Time.

[Jinsell]

Finally, I'm amazed to read that you welcomed his arrival back in the day. For me, as soon as I saw the headlines in summer '97, I predicted it would be a disaster... for Messier (oh and for the Canucks, too).

I was going into sixth grade at the time. To say I was a knowledgeable hockey fan in those days would have been false. With that said, I certainly knew who Mark Messier was and how great he had been for the Edmonton Oilers and New York Rangers.

With that said, I wasn't thrilled at all about the signing. Part of it may have stemmed from my memories of 1994 where Messier was public enemy number one, but a fair bit of time had passed by then. I just remember thinking why and of course I certainly understood he had 18 million reasons to come to Vancouver. The optimist in me hoped he could help turn the ailing club around, but deep down even I knew this was the wrong move for both the Canucks and Messier.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Fair enough. I doubt Messier had anything to do with Gelinas, though, since Messier had sort-of mentored him in Edmonton and won a Stanley Cup with him.

I also agree that as team captain, you have to take credit for the losing as well as the winning. But then you also have to give credit for when the team starts getting better (as the Canucks did, drastically, in 1999-2000, with Messier as captain).

Well, yes... they were technically better. "Drastically" is accurate too, I suppose, considering their epic suck of the year before. They still missed the playoffs, though. They were still, by any measuring stick, a pretty bad team. He can take credit for that, I guess.

 

[The Panther]

They were still, by any measuring stick, a pretty bad team. He can take credit for that, I guess.

"Pretty bad" is a bit hard when they had a winning record. That's a 25-point improvement over the year before, which is remarkable. Messier had the best PPG on the team, and I think was selected as Team MVP.

Now, do I think nearly 40-year-old Messier was the reason the team suddenly improved? Of course not. It had more to do with Marc Crawford and the new identity the team had with new young players coming to the fore. But if you're going to give Messier all the blame for 1997-1999, you have to also give him all the credit for 1999-2000. I mean, you can't have it both ways.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Well, yes... they were technically better. "Drastically" is accurate too, I suppose, considering their epic suck of the year before. They still missed the playoffs, though. They were still, by any measuring stick, a pretty bad team. He can take credit for that, I guess.

It's been mentioned a million times before, but the 1999-00 Canucks were 27-21-11-7 with Messier (pace of 89pts - 7th in West), but just 3-8-4-1 without Messier (pace of 56pts). And one of their losses with Messier came from pulling their goalie in a tie game because they knew they needed 2 points.

 

[The Panther]

It's been mentioned a million times before, but the 1999-00 Canucks were 27-21-11-7 with Messier (pace of 89pts - 7th in West), but just 3-8-4-1 without Messier (pace of 56pts). And one of their losses with Messier came from pulling their goalie in a tie game because they knew they needed 2 points.

You should know by now that facts are not welcome in Canuck-fans' denigration of Messier. Let's extend this thread with Trumpian 'alternative facts', and we'll be back on track.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

You should know by now that facts are not welcome in Canuck-fans' denigration of Messier. Let's extend this thread with Trumpian 'alternative facts', and we'll be back on track.

.

Tell me how calling him a sad shadow of his former self is distorting the facts?

The numbers alone in no way tell the whole story. He was passive and passionless and we would probably have got the same result if we'd signed an aging Craig Janney

 

[kmad]

It's okay, though -- Mess is tougher than the Canucks and can take it.

wat.

 

[Blade Runner]

20 years ago: Messier's only happy moment as Canuck:

 

[BenchBrawl]

For me it's simple, Mark Messier is the greatest Canuck that ever was.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

not that i want to start this pick swinging contest again but to clear up a long-running misconception, here it is out of adrian aucoin's mouth--

keenan "just didn't like" trevor linden, and made him give up the captaincy to messier on the japan trip at the beginning of that year.

Barstool Sports

aucoin, of course, was on that trip to japan.

 

[The Panther]

not that i want to start this pick swinging contest again but to clear up a long-running misconception, here it is out of adrian aucoin's mouth--

keenan "just didn't like" trevor linden, and made him give up the captaincy to messier on the japan trip at the beginning of that year.

Barstool Sports

aucoin, of course, was on that trip to japan.

Well, that makes a lot of sense since Keenan wasn't the Canucks coach when Messier became captain!


P.S. I cannot believe you bumped this thread.

 

[sr edler]

According to the internet Messier did a Reddit AMA a couple years ago where he said he regretted accepting the captaincy from Linden.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

well excuse me for hearing interesting info on a podcast while doing the dishes and thinking it might be nice to share

but i guess it goes to show you can’t believe everything some retired NHLer says

 

[Ofuzz]

If we are talking about overrated leaders I think the list starts with old stevie y.

Not saying Yzerman was bad or anything but Messier is clearly a tier or two above him

Both were great players and good leaders but the thing that gets me is that Messier is often referred to in the press as the "greatest leader in hockey history". I personally don't get it. I know that management has to take a lot of blame but let's just remember that the "greatest leader in hockey history" captained teams his final 7 years in the league and they all missed the playoffs. That's a lot of golf.....

 

[sr edler]

Both were great players and good leaders but the thing that gets me is that Messier is often referred to in the press as the "greatest leader in hockey history". I personally don't get it. I know that management has to take a lot of blame but let's just remember that the "greatest leader in hockey history" captained teams his final 7 years in the league and they all missed the playoffs. That's a lot of golf.....

Messier only led one (type of) team to success, the Edmonton/New York Oilers, and he did it with the same (type of) approach. When a different situation (regarding team dynamics) happened in Vancouver, he didn't have a good answer. So yes, the "he won Cups with different teams" is nonsense. And no, Markus Näslund saying Messier was a good mentor is not a plus because Näslund was a loser. This is reality where we have it.

I find it humorous though that @The Panther are taking shots at Trevor Linden in different threads here on the history board regarding Linden's leadership qualities and likability as a player. Trevor Linden was well liked as a player in Vancouver, Long Island, Montreal and D.C.. When he came to Montreal he didn't try to steal the captaincy from Koivu, they became good friends instead and respected each other.

 

[The Panther]

Messier only led one (type of) team to success, the Edmonton/New York Oilers, and he did it with the same (type of) approach. When a different situation (regarding team dynamics) happened in Vancouver, he didn't have a good answer. So yes, the "he won Cups with different teams" is nonsense. And no, Markus Näslund saying Messier was a good mentor is not a plus because Näslund was a loser. This is reality where we have it.

I find it humorous though that @The Panther are taking shots at Trevor Linden in different threads here on the history board regarding Linden's leadership qualities and likability as a player. Trevor Linden was well liked as a player in Vancouver, Long Island, Montreal and D.C.. When he came to Montreal he didn't try to steal the captaincy from Koivu, they became good friends instead and respected each other.

Sorry, not taking the bait. I think most posters here are aware that your summary of my opinion is inaccurate.

 

[sr edler]

Sorry, not taking the bait. I think most posters here are aware that your summary of my opinion is inaccurate.

I apologies if I misrepresented your views, I just thought it was funny you said in the Näslund thread he learned to carry himself miserable from Linden. It also wasn't bait.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

let's retrofit this thread for something useful... my 10 most hated canucks of "all time"

10. petr nedved
9. linden vey
8. jim sandlak
7. sam gagner
6. dan quinn
5. erik gudbranson
4. brandon sutter
3. ryan miller
2. jim benning

HMs bertuzzi and naslund, april 2003 and after; brandon prust; luca sbisa; dana murzyn

huh, i thought there would be more keenan-era late 90s guys but i guess none of them stuck around long enough to really be memorable enough to be hated

EDIT: need to rethink this. cody hodgson deserves a spot there, maybe need to take out nedved for asking for gretzky to sign a stick while still on the ice after a playoff loss or linden vey for being the coach's son and playing like dan quinn's weaker, less coordinated little brother. also, HM to markus granlund. i remember the day we traded for him: at first i thought he was mikael backlund and was like, okay i can dig it. then i was like, no wait the guy who was awesome for finland in the olympics? when did he get traded to calgary? but bring it on, jimbo. then finally i was like, what? who the FFFFFF is markus granlund? and he turned out to be worse than i could have imagined.

 

[Neutrinos]

Here's a fun one:

Messier insisted on wearing #11 with Vancouver - a number that had been unofficially retired by the team after Wayne Maki's death

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Here's a fun one:

Messier insisted on wearing #11 with Vancouver - a number that had been unofficially retired by the team after Wayne Maki's death

rip terrible ted green?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Here's a fun one:

Messier insisted on wearing #11 with Vancouver - a number that had been unofficially retired by the team after Wayne Maki's death

"We've offered to let Mark wear it for the three years he plays here and then we want them to retire the number again." - Beverly Maki

 

[Neutrinos]

"We've offered to let Mark wear it for the three years he plays here and then we want them to retire the number again." - Beverly Maki

From Maki's Wikipedia page:

The Canucks unofficially retired his number 11 jersey until Mark Messier, who had worn number 11 with the Edmonton Oilers and New York Rangers, joined the team, and insisted on using it over the protest of Maki's family.

 

[quoipourquoi]

From Maki's Wikipedia page:

The Canucks unofficially retired his number 11 jersey until Mark Messier, who had worn number 11 with the Edmonton Oilers and New York Rangers, joined the team, and insisted on using it over the protest of Maki's family.

I mean, that’s Wikipedia. I’m literally quoting The Vancouver Sun.

"They just don't want to accept that the number was retired," said Beverly Maki, who lives in North Vancouver with daughter Stephanie, 26, and son Wayne Jr., 25. "We've offered to let Mark wear it for the three years he plays here and then we want them to retire the number again. All I've been asking for is some acknowledgement. If something could happen, it would be great."

In her most recent conversation with Quinn one week ago, Beverly Maki said she was told the Canucks "wouldn't do anything because the number was never retired."

 

[Neutrinos]

I mean, that’s Wikipedia. I’m literally quoting The Vancouver Sun.

If I had to guess, I'd say that was probably the compromise put forth by the Maki family once they realized the Canucks were going to cave to Messier's insistence on wearing 11

 

[quoipourquoi]

If I had to guess, I'd say that was probably the compromise put forth by the Maki family once they realized the Canucks were going to cave to Messier's insistence on wearing 11

I’m not sure it’s much of a compromise if the Maki family didn’t get the thing they were asking for from the Vancouver Canucks - who would sooner raise a #7 banner.

At any rate, Mark Messier had permission from both the Vancouver Canucks and the Maki family to wear #11, and anyone is welcome to update Wikipedia to reflect that fact. That the Maki family and the Vancouver Canucks disagreed on whether #11 was actually retired (prior to both giving Mark Messier permission to wear it) is another matter entirely.

But holding it against a player for wearing a number that he had permission to wear from both the organization who issued it and the family who that organization did not consult prior to issuing it is a stretch, and the phrasing of the situation on Wikipedia is incomplete at best.