Why did Quebec not get a team?

[JianYang]

No, they are not but if the Montreal owner kicks up a fuss, he is being a prick and hurting Canadian hockey.

The only thing I have against the U.S. and U.S. hockey is the number of folks who are snotty and insufferable about hockey in general and who deeply resent Canada and the amount of money Canadians pour into this game that allowed the growth of the game and people like you to appreciate it.

As I have said MANY times, keep Canadian money (T.V., merch, tickets, advertising dollars) IN Canada.
Expand in the U.S. on your own nickel.

I think molson is on record of saying it would be nice to have the nords back, but he might just be saying that knowing it's a longshot in happening.

Regardless, I'm not sure how much the Habs get out of the QC market. Those two cities don't seem to have alot in common despite being kind of close in proximity.

 

[cowboy82nd]

No current teams. But book it, one day it will happen.
Listen, if a MBL club can move from one place to another à la Oakland IS moving. .... I definitely believe one day it will again happen in the NHL

You really beleive that it will never happen again in the NHL?

Oakland ownership has no money for a new stadium and the city and or county won't pay for one. That is why Oakland is moving.

 

[cowboy82nd]

No they moved the team because it didn't work. NHL did accept a pro team to play in a 5000 seats barn.

Call me when you see this in a Canada Arena...

Smith Entertainment Group Announces $2 and $3 Concession Offerings During All Utah Jazz and Utah Hockey Club Games at Delta Center | Utah Hockey Club

Today, Smith Entertainment Group (SEG) introduced $2 and $3 pricing for select fan-favorite concessions that will be available during all Utah Jazz and Utah Hockey Club games at Delta Center, starting with the Utah Jazz preseason game on Friday, Oct. 4. Five popular items have been significantly...

www.nhl.com

Are you complaining that an American arena sells food cheaper?????

Arthur Blank (the Atlanta Falcons owner) decided to lower concession stand prices to get more people to buy food and drinks. And according to him, he is making more money on concessions with the lower prices then with the higher prices.

 

[cowboy82nd]

They wouldn't be if Canadian revenue stayed in Canada - which is what Rogers/TSN should insist on.

Why are we propping up your teams?

Rogers/TSN can insist on whatever they want, but the league is going to do what is best for the LEAGUE not just part of the league.

 

[cowboy82nd]

Fair enough.

It's a moot point. We're getting screwed by the NHL and we have no one to blame but ourselves. That's why I never spend money to support the league. No other Canadian should either.

If you don't spend money to support the league, do you even watch the NHL? And if so, how?

 

[Bradely]

Oakland ownership has no money for a new stadium and the city and or county won't pay for one. That is why Oakland is moving.

There is always a reason to move a team. Pick in a bucket. Québec did move for the same reason, the Old Colisée was not a NHL barn by the standard in 1995.

 

[Bradely]

Are you complaining that an American arena sells food cheaper?????

Arthur Blank (the Atlanta Falcons owner) decided to lower concession stand prices to get more people to buy food and drinks. And according to him, he is making more money on concessions with the lower prices then with the higher prices.

Complaining.... lol. I am extremely surprise on some Americain folks sensitivity.

I am all on rebate, low prices concession, and if a team could give tickets, I would be happy..... was just pointing out that those lower prices are rarely and/or not present in a Canadian barn....for evidence I hope I don't have to explain.

Question-: Have you been at a game at least once in a Canadian arena, exemple in Montréal? If not, I understand you don't understand what I am saying.

Moreover, have you been once in Canada?

 

[cowboy82nd]

Complaining.... lol. I am extremely surprise on some Americain folks sensitivity.

I am all on rebate, low prices concession, and if a team could give tickets, I would be happy..... was just pointing out that those lower prices are rarely and/or not present in a Canadian barn....for evidence I hope I don't have to explain.

Question-: Have you been at a game at least once in a Canadian arena, exemple in Montréal? If not, I understand you don't understand what I am saying.

Moreover, have you been once in Canada?

What are you talking about sensitivity? I asked if you are complaining about cheap concession prices? I understand that Everybody overcharges for their services, that's why I don't buy anything at the games.

And to answer your question, no the wife and I have not had the privilege to go to a game across the border. It's on my list (I'm trying to go to all NHL stadiums and catch a game). And yes, I have visited Canada a couple of times. How do you think that I got to the Hockey Hall of Fame?

 

[joestevens29]

They wouldn't be if Canadian revenue stayed in Canada - which is what Rogers/TSN should insist on.

Why are we propping up your teams?

We are going that route why should my teams money go to struggling franchises in Canada? Bad enough my taxes prop up Quebec in the first place.

You aren’t…

Have said before, will say again, if Canada wanted to take their ball and go home, their revenue and valuations tank. Like it or not, Canadian franchises benefit immensely from the 25 American markets. It’s why they’re so happy to have us and continue to vote to allow new entrants.

Don't think people realize this. Don't have to look any further than the CFL

 

[dekelikekocur]

They wouldn't be if Canadian revenue stayed in Canada - which is what Rogers/TSN should insist on.

Why are we propping up your teams?

This is such a false narrative. There are 25 teams in the US that the Canadian teams play against. Without those teams, Canadian teams are spinning their wheels. Without the 25 teams, do you think a 7 team "Canadian NHL" would have the salary cap it does? So your mini type league wouldn't have the cap, the players (because lets be real, even Canadian players sign in the US at a much higher rate to avoid Canada), and would die off quite quickly.

Ranked: Which NHL Team Takes Home the Most Revenue?

The Oilers are the second-highest earning team in the NHL and the Panthers are 26th. We show the top teams in the NHL by revenue in 2023.

www.visualcapitalist.com

The revenue from the Canadian teams combine for: 1.498B, US teams combine for: 4934

Avg per team is only 214m vs 197.36m. So for all the whining about the difference in the TV deals, it doesn't reflect in overall revenue being only 17m average difference. So if the Canadian TV deal is average of 50m per team vs the 25m for the us team, american teams on average draw in 172m per vs canadian teams averaging 164m. The only thing keeping the Canadian teams boosted is their TV deal, and the Canadian market is already saturated. The US has so many more TV markets to be expanded\ into, creating a bigger pot as the sport grows.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Oakland ownership has no money for a new stadium and the city and or county won't pay for one. That is why Oakland is moving.

Ownership is incredibly greedy.

Honestly government needs to stop giving teams money it is disgusting.

 

[End on a Hinote]

Folks get bitter when they've been going through this nonsense for years from all comers. When folks - incuding major news outlets! - are so completely devoid of empathy as to be celebrating that possibility of you losing your team in your face while you're mourning the passing of a community giant that made the team possible, it's more than a little difficult to stay "calm and reasonable and balanced" about the subject. To the best of my knowledge, that in particular is a line that's only been crossed by one side in this debate. And while I'm not pointing the finger at you personally, or anyone else in this thread, y'all are still trying to "equal time" that and it's really kind of fundamentally not equal to begin with.

* * *​

That's because that's exactly what was being said, explicitly, for decades. Both of the teams I'm a fan of have been explicitly targeted in the past by that rhetoric. It's not being said out loud anymore, to be sure, but we're not sure to what degree that genuinely is folks being more empathetic versus folks just deciding they're not going to say the quiet part out loud.

* * *​

Again. After years and years and years of being regularly and consistently browbeaten about how you don't deserve to exist as a hockey fan, not just by random fans but by media organizations and industry influencers, people can get really, really bitter. That doesn't justify it (EDIT: and speaking personally I'm none too pleased with Panthers fans who got into that nonsense) but it does go some way towards explaining it.

I don't disagree with anything you say. And I don't doubt that the critical views of Canadian fans towards non-traditional markets are louder and more obnoxious than how some of the US fans are towards the Canadian teams. Why? I don't know. Maybe they fear that grass roots Canadian hockey is being threatened. Maybe when it comes to hockey Canadian fans are just plain old louder (think English soccer hooligans)

Besides, the whole "Make it 7" thing was, iirc, started by Jim Balsille (who nobody liked, anyway). The guy and his push for the NHL in Hamilton is a textbook example of what NOT to do if you want to buy and relocate a sports team. I actually think that TNSE, when pursuing the NHL in Winnipeg watched him and was like, "Yeah, let's not do that." But I digress.

But I can assure you that the critical opinions of markets like Columbus, Nashville and Tampa are long gone. Sure it's probably still out there among some fans, but their idiots and aren't worth a nickels worth of your attention.

I can actually relate in a different way as I used to be a Vancouver Grizzlies basketball fan. And seeing how they were treated by the league and fans and even players, ya it sucks and no fan should have to tolerate that regardless if they are Canadian or American.

Honestly the only true criticism from Canadian fans towards any US based team in recent years has been Arizona, but honestly that's a bit understandable. And even then I think it was more about how they felt the league was "coddling" them. Hell, I think Thrashers fans have a right to be pissed about that, too! Why didn't the league take control of then until they found a new local owner? Atlanta is a major corporate hub, no shortage of potential owners. Was i happy that Winnipeg got their ream back? Of course. Was I happy that it came at the expense of a team that didn't even really struggle with attendance? No way.

As a former Grizzlies fan, I couldn't relate more to Thrashers fans. Very similar, unfortunate situation.

I had nothing against Arizona, but it wasn't working out and I'm glad that they are now in a market that will likely support them, even though it's not in Canada. And I even hope that Arizona can get their shit together and rejoin the league in the next few years with a new downtown arena.

At the end of the day, regardless of where we come from we are all prone to irrational opinions towards other markets, especially on the internet when we are all protected with anonymity. And honestly, if the Canucks can't do it this year, I want the Blue Jackets. Win it for Johnny and Matt!

 

[Lt Dan]

Win it for Johnny

This needs to play before everywhere Columbus home game

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Honestly the only true criticism from Canadian fans towards any US based team in recent years has been Arizona, but honestly that's a bit understandable. And even then I think it was more about how they felt the league was "coddling" them. Hell, I think Thrashers fans have a right to be pissed about that, too! Why didn't the league take control of then until they found a new local owner?

Believe it or not, an owner actually has some legal rights and the NHL did not want to become embroiled in expensive litigation with Meruelo. Essentially, the League kept giving Meruelo rope until he finally hung himself on the lack of a viable stadium deal and they were able to force him to divest.

Meruelo got a cool $1B (after buying it for $425M, not a bad ROI), the League got a $200M relocation fee (and, ultimately, the right to sell a new franchise in Phoenix), and Utah got a team without having to wait four years for an expansion franchise.

Nobody else stepped up to offer the $1.2B that Utah did. Not another Phoenix investment group, not QC, not Hartford, not even Atlanta (which wasn't ready yet).

Not sure why anybody should be butthurt by this deal, unless they unrealistically expected the NHL to gift them a team for free because ..... nostalgia.

 

[Brookbank]

For clarification:

(1) Isn't $1B USD equal to $1.35B CAD?

(2) Do the uber-rich owners of the Jets have an application for an expansion franchise pending? If not, why not?

(3) Are there any current applications for expansion in Canada pending?

(4) Would the Leafs' owners approve a franchise in Hamilton?

(5) Didn't the NHL ultimately receive a $200M relocation fee for the Phoenix-Utah move which was split between all owners?

Thanks in advance!

I have it on authority from John Shannon that the Leafs do NOT have a veto on a Hamilton franchise.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

No, they are not but if the Montreal owner kicks up a fuss, he is being a prick and hurting Canadian hockey.

Geoff Molson is a prick and he’s hurting Canadian hockey??

I didn’t realize a single owner wields that much power over Canadian hockey. You don’t think it’s the BoG that decides these things?

 

[Brookbank]

That is my take. Canadian market don't have alot to grow, while in the US it is. New fans, big numbers, TV rating and money etc...
NHL is going south of the border..... and part of the financial support provided by Canadian fan!

Bettman also uses Canadian cities as the ultimate bailout fund for his failed American ventures.

As he did with Winnepeg. Winnipeg was treated just like Quebec was now until they needed a bailout. A long list of excuses why Winnipeg would never get a team. The exact same excuses as Quebec now. Then suddenly over a few weeks , the Jets were coming back. And Bettman was sad about it.

He likes to keep his bailouts in reserve. One spent is one less that is available.

It looks like the Candian hockey fan is subsidizing food concessions in Utah. Revenue sharing. Gotta love it.

 

[tucker3434]

Bettman also uses Canadian cities as the ultimate bailout fund for his failed American ventures.

As he did with Winnepeg. Winnipeg was treated just like Quebec was now until they needed a bailout. A long list of excuses why Winnipeg would never get a team. The exact same excuses as Quebec now. Then suddenly over a few weeks , the Jets were coming back. And Bettman was sad about it.

He likes to keep his bailouts in reserve. One spent is one less that is available.

TNSE got the Thrashers for $170m, including the relocation fee. We don't live in that world anymore. Utah's relocation fee alone was more than that. Step one in Quebec is finding someone willing to spend $1.2b+, and I don't think that person, or group of people, exits. The Thrashers sale was Quebec's window.

 

[gordiecarlon]

Quebec is given opportunities to show they want a team every year during the preseason and they draw under 10k most of the time.


As @Shwag33 said, not enough corporate money, etc. plenty of reasons Quebec keeps getting left out.

sure , quebec has lots of talents, but Quebec is not big enough to have a NHL team.

 

[ozzie]

Hamilton would be a better choice than Quebec City, better chance of success for sure. I remember going to see the Oilers vs Nords in Quebec City during the Oiler's hay day and it was half empty,

I personally think the NHL stretched itself as far as it was willing to go with the Jets moving back to Canada.

They NHL wouldn't want Quebec and Winnipeg in the league in this econmic enviroment.

 

[Viqsi]

The LEAFS will be worth what they're worth with or without U.S. teams. In fact, the other Canadian teams would be worth MORE if the Canadian teams shared ALL the Canadian revenue.

It's U.S. franchises that would falter when they can't pay the bills. When you have a half dozen U.S. franchises unable to meat payroll, U.S. values will drop like a stone.

Again, don't do us any favours. Canadian teams should keep the money at home. U.S. teams should do the same.

I decided on a whim I wanted to check this assumption. So I went to the Forbes NHL valuations list and plugged the revenue numbers into Excel.

Short version: Canada's 22% of the NHL teams provided 23% of the NHL's revenue last season. With the move of the Coyotes to Utah I suspect that might finish balancing out.

So... is there a difference? Sure. Is it actually a really significant one? No, not really.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that four of the seven Canadian teams are below the league average. Vancouver isn't off by all that much; one could fairly say they're holding their own. But Calgary and especially Winnipeg and Ottawa are arguably being "propped up" by the rest. This suggests that an eighth team in one of the small Canadian markets remaining might not actually be the revenue-generating giant folks like to suggest. The contrast is particularly stark when you look at the two recent expansion teams - Seattle is in the same "technically below but holding their own" category as Vancouver and Vegas is actually among the top teams.

 

[JianYang]

Geoff Molson is a prick and he’s hurting Canadian hockey??

I didn’t realize a single owner wields that much power over Canadian hockey. You don’t think it’s the BoG that decides these things?

In this case, Quebec city falls under the regional broadcasting territory of montreal, so I would think that molson probably has some binding rights that he can utilize if he so chooses.

Similar to how the leafs probably have certain rights in their area which can be disrupted by another regional team. Buffalo also wouldn't be happy with that outcome, but I don't think they would have anything enforceable in that scenario.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

I decided on a whim I wanted to check this assumption. So I went to the Forbes NHL valuations list and plugged the revenue numbers into Excel.

View attachment 911760

Short version: Canada's 22% of the NHL teams provided 23% of the NHL's revenue last season. With the move of the Coyotes to Utah I suspect that might finish balancing out.

So... is there a difference? Sure. Is it actually a really significant one? No, not really.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that four of the seven Canadian teams are below the league average. Vancouver isn't off by all that much; one could fairly say they're holding their own. But Calgary and especially Winnipeg and Ottawa are arguably being "propped up" by the rest. This suggests that an eighth team in one of the small Canadian markets remaining might not actually be the revenue-generating giant folks like to suggest. The contrast is particularly stark when you look at the two recent expansion teams - Seattle is in the same "technically below but holding their own" category as Vancouver and Vegas is actually among the top teams.

Excellent work! Pretty thoroughly busts the common falsehood that Canadian teams are carrying the Americam teams. Are these figures all in USD?

That the two most recent expansion teams are both outperforming three Canadian teams is also quite remarkable.

 

[Viqsi]

Excellent work! Pretty thoroughly busts the common falsehood that Canadian teams are carrying the Americam teams. Are these figures all in USD?

That the two most recent expansion teams are both outperforming three Canadian teams is also quite remarkable.

Yep, all USD.

And yeah, I knew the expansion teams were doing pretty well, but Vegas being that high? I wouldn't have believed it myself. (Some vindictive part of me still doesn't want to... )

 

[crowi]

Dude if the Canes moved to QC they could go 0-82 till the end of time and they'd still sell out forever. Because hockey is in their veins. Not like us.

Dude, you have a poor argument with no basis.