Why did Ken Holland seemingly refuse to use Hakan Andersson/European scouts picks with the highest draft pick?

[GarlicbreadTB]

After seeing Yzerman picking out of Europe every draft he's been here for. I was thinking back how his predecessor Ken Holland never did it. Despite Hakan Andersson hitting big with gems in the late rounds in the late 90s/2000s surely he would've had some big mandate within the organization. Or was the hope he'd continue to get them in later rounds.

Would we possibly be in a better position in the post Zetterberg/Datysuk-era if he would've done this?

 

[Run the Jewels]

I'm not sure how fruitful this conversation is going to be, which is why I've approached it from a different angle. I think it was a combo of Holland knowing he needed to draft high-quality players out of Canada so he errantly allotted his best draft capital towards the guys suggested by his North American amateur scouts, with the idea that Europe would provide depth given he knew Andersson had a track record with drafting NHL caliber talent in the third round and later.

In his mind - theoretically - it would be unconscionable to waste a draft pick on a Euro with a top draft pick who might bust. There was almost surely a Canadian available who would be more of a sure thing. He did draft Nik Kronwall with a first, but that was a very long time ago. It worked so well he never did it again!

Truly understanding his rationale is going to be difficult beyond 'you need to be successful drafting out of the best talent pool in the world so you use your best draft picks on those guys'. The disconnect was not looking at the poor results from his scouting team and then making any changes.

Truly brain dead management.

 

[HoweFan]

Is he following this philosophy in Edmonton? I guess I could get off my lazy ass and look it up

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

WHY DIDN'T MOMMY LOVE ME???

 

[grsbmd]

Or maybe teams don't just give their draft picks to different scouts, but instead compile ranked lists of players and pick whomever is at the top of their list?

Given that 60-80% of the first rounders will come from North America in a typical year, it seems entirely reasonable that Holland picks 10 NA players and 2 Europeans over 22 drafts, while Yzerman selects 2 NA players and 6 Europeans, with both of them just picking the top guy on their list.

Sometimes you get a bunch of heads and sometimes you get a bunch of tails, but it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the coin.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Ras is the only remainder of Holland's shitty picks, so I'd rather just let it go.

 

[19 for president]

This is my theory. So when the Wings were slow rolling guys into the NHL in the latter half of the Wings playoff years I think Holland got turned off somewhat on drafting Euros due to the issue with Jarnkrok, Dick Axelsson, and Ryno. The Wings were unwilling at the time to play unfinished players in the NHL and you had guys leaving because they didn't want to ride the bus for 3 or 4 seasons.

Our euro strategy went towards guys that had already committed to playing in NA as juniors or came from weaker leagues ie not the KHL or SEL where they could make a good living.

Then you had the whole questionable transfer issues with the KHL that turned most of the NHL off of taking Russians high.

It also doesn't help that Sweden, Hakan's back yard, didn't pump out a ton of talent during that period either. After the Z, Kronwall age group you have Hedman, Karlsson, Backstrom and not a ton else up until the emergence of guys like Petterson, Ray, etc.

The only blatant fails in the 1st round vs a nearby euro is really Ras over Necas, Mccollum over Markstron (Hakan doesn't usually push goalies), and Sheahan over Kuznetsov (but there were rumours he'd only come over for Wash).

The bigger fail for Holland was continously trading away first after we fell out of contention and just bad NA drafting period. There are 6 guys taken in the 1st after Ras that I'd rather have and only 1 is a Euro. 4 NA dmen over Zadina.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

This is my theory. So when the Wings were slow rolling guys into the NHL in the latter half of the Wings playoff years I think Holland got turned off somewhat on drafting Euros due to the issue with Jarnkrok, Dick Axelsson, and Ryno. The Wings were unwilling at the time to play unfinished players in the NHL and you had guys leaving because they didn't want to ride the bus for 3 or 4 seasons.

Our euro strategy went towards guys that had already committed to playing in NA as juniors or came from weaker leagues ie not the KHL or SEL where they could make a good living.

Then you had the whole questionable transfer issues with the KHL that turned most of the NHL off of taking Russians high.

It also doesn't help that Sweden, Hakan's back yard, didn't pump out a ton of talent during that period either. After the Z, Kronwall age group you have Hedman, Karlsson, Backstrom and not a ton else up until the emergence of guys like Petterson, Ray, etc.

The only blatant fails in the 1st round vs a nearby euro is really Ras over Necas, Mccollum over Markstron (Hakan doesn't usually push goalies), and Sheahan over Kuznetsov (but there were rumours he'd only come over for Wash).

The bigger fail for Holland was continously trading away first after we fell out of contention and just bad NA drafting period. There are 6 guys taken in the 1st after Ras that I'd rather have and only 1 is a Euro. 4 NA dmen over Zadina.

I think there was more to the Swedes in GR not wanting to ride the bus in the aughts. Axelsson, Ryno, Jarnkrok , Larsson, Grigorenko was a decent crop of prospects that went there. Larsson gave an interview trashing Jim Howard once, and if I remember correctly Grigorenko also didn’t have nice things to say. All went on to have good careers elsewhere and had NHL talent levels as at least bottom 6ers. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was coaching or the GM in GR that made these guys want out.

 

[Frk It]

Replacing Nill with Wright was the issue.

The Holland/Nill combo was good, they just had very limited draft capital to work with.

The Holland/Wright combo was ass, stop making me re-live it please.

 

[FMichael]

Replacing Nill with Wright was the issue.

The Holland/Nill combo was good, they just had very limited draft capital to work with.

The Holland/Wright combo was ass, stop making me re-live it please.

Nill is a primary reason why Dallas has been so good these past several seasons.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

I’d really like to stop talking about Ken holland and his tenure. That was 6 seasons ago already.

 

[Bondurant]

Consistently hitting on European players late means other GM's were consistently sleeping on them. Wise strategy to prioritize NA players knowing you would still have the picks later for the Euro players his competition was ignoring.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Consistently hitting on European players late means other GM's were consistently sleeping on them. Wise strategy to prioritize NA players knowing you would still have the picks later for the Euro players his competition was ignoring.

Holland loved distressed scouting grounds, likely the result of embracing Sweden and Russia in a heavy way when people were apprehensive, but you could see them go to areas that were being ignored. I think that worked out well for him and the Wings in a lot of his early director of amateur days and was how he rose to GM. I think he was slow to evolve to some of the online hockey tools, people weren't avoiding the Czech Republic when we seemed to be taking advantage of it, they were in a down phase with some of their talent.

He also got bled of a lot of organizational talent. It has been a while since Ken Holland was involved with this team, I thank him for 25 wonderful years, 4 cups and 6 finals appearances. He played a massive role in producing a quarter century of having arguably the best team in the league. It didn't end well, we know through Devellano that they told the Ilitch family to blow it up after the Boston series loss. That wasn't ownerships desire, his tendency to lock guys up long-term both in the non-cap era and then early cap era caused major maneuverability issues. I actually remember thinking Joe MacDonald wasn't doing a great job but that certainly changed with Nill in Dallas so that was a very wrong take. Absent assured top picks he was trying to build a big physical team for playoffs but didn't get the right pieces for that. Hard to do where they were picking but certainly a rough bunch of years in the 2010s.

I get him moving on but I do actually really wish he was in an advisory role as was originally announced. I get him leaving but I think he would have been a useful sounding board to Yzerman. Holland always saw the game a little different and I think that instinct helped him a lot on the balance of his career. It helped him in his early scouting days, it helped him zig and zag at times approprietly, but he missed the second rebuild on the fly which was always going to be a daunting task. He tried a lot of the same principals but wasn't getting a bunch of the lucky breaks. There isn't a team that wins without some luck and it certainly smiled on him for a lot of years, but towards the end of his tenure we had too many competing ideas and I don't think we followed through on a lot of things and it increased the tailspin.

Like with the Dumars descent though I will remain removed from the crowd that loves to criticize Holland in Detroit. On the balance he is one of the best things that ever happened in this franchise, I really hope some people at some point can accept the balance of his resume instead of the end at some point.

 

[wingerdinger]

Holland loved distressed scouting grounds, likely the result of embracing Sweden and Russia in a heavy way when people were apprehensive, but you could see them go to areas that were being ignored. I think that worked out well for him and the Wings in a lot of his early director of amateur days and was how he rose to GM. I think he was slow to evolve to some of the online hockey tools, people weren't avoiding the Czech Republic when we seemed to be taking advantage of it, they were in a down phase with some of their talent.

He also got bled of a lot of organizational talent. It has been a while since Ken Holland was involved with this team, I thank him for 25 wonderful years, 4 cups and 6 finals appearances. He played a massive role in producing a quarter century of having arguably the best team in the league. It didn't end well, we know through Devellano that they told the Ilitch family to blow it up after the Boston series loss. That wasn't ownerships desire, his tendency to lock guys up long-term both in the non-cap era and then early cap era caused major maneuverability issues. I actually remember thinking Joe MacDonald wasn't doing a great job but that certainly changed with Nill in Dallas so that was a very wrong take. Absent assured top picks he was trying to build a big physical team for playoffs but didn't get the right pieces for that. Hard to do where they were picking but certainly a rough bunch of years in the 2010s.

I get him moving on but I do actually really wish he was in an advisory role as was originally announced. I get him leaving but I think he would have been a useful sounding board to Yzerman. Holland always saw the game a little different and I think that instinct helped him a lot on the balance of his career. It helped him in his early scouting days, it helped him zig and zag at times approprietly, but he missed the second rebuild on the fly which was always going to be a daunting task. He tried a lot of the same principals but wasn't getting a bunch of the lucky breaks. There isn't a team that wins without some luck and it certainly smiled on him for a lot of years, but towards the end of his tenure we had too many competing ideas and I don't think we followed through on a lot of things and it increased the tailspin.

Like with the Dumars descent though I will remain removed from the crowd that loves to criticize Holland in Detroit. On the balance he is one of the best things that ever happened in this franchise, I really hope some people at some point can accept the balance of his resume instead of the end at some point.

The downfall of the Wings was the owners insistence on prolonging the playoff streak.

I dont blame Holland his hands were tied behind his back and agree with you we should appreciate the good he did in Detroit that vastly outweigh the bad.

 

[deca guard]

i doubt holland listened to nill or hakan on 1st rd pix , as is obvious by how this era euro pix called by hakan are working . and how nill is rocking drafts in texas

 

[SirKillalot]

Or was the hope he'd continue to get them in later rounds.

Would we possibly be in a better position in the post Zetterberg/Datysuk-era if he would've done this?

At least early on and for a good portion of the first half of his years with the Red Wings, other teams weren't as good at scouting certain parts of Europe, as Hakan Andersson mentioned on several occasions, at time only them or one other team with Rockstrom from the Rangers or someone went scouting same places as Detroit.

Thus it made sense drafting those only they knew about in the later rounds than earlier, as they were in there eyes "safe picks" to be able to get them at a later stage. A calculated "get your guy" scenario.

 

[Gniwder]

If you actually look draft by draft at what was available after Kenny's pick, you'd realize it would have actually made things WORSE (at least from 2013)!

Ras is the only remainder of Holland's shitty picks, so I'd rather just let it go.

It was a thin draft, Robertson and Batherson are the only players that would have made a significant difference, and they're not Euros.

THE REAL IRONY HERE?

It's the Euro pick that was really bad. I know Zadina was drafted out of the Q, but he's Euro and Hakan should have been familiar with his game. The correct pick was a NA player, Hughes.

 

[Retire91]

It was putting every ounce of the organizations focus on playoff appearances even after the team clearly had nothing to get past the first round that did the team in. By the time the draft started he was probably skimming the cliffs notes in-between calls to every retiring vet in the NHL trying to convince them to do one more run with the wings.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Why don't the Wings have a draft list like every other team in the NHL?

If the Wings do have a draft list, why would they deviate from it so early in the draft?

Why does everyone think that even if you let Hakan alone make a first round pick, he would necessarily select a Euro with out pick?

In my judgment, the only legitimate question to ask about our European scouting is why haven't we drafted more Russians?

 

[Frk It]

i doubt holland listened to nill or hakan on 1st rd pix , as is obvious by how this era euro pix called by hakan are working . and how nill is rocking drafts in texas

If you guys honestly think Holland didn’t value the opinion of the guy who found him Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Kronwall/Franzen/etc, then I just don’t know what to tell you.

The reality is when you are consistently picking between 20-32 (for an extended period) you are dealing with most shitty options, whether that is NA or Euro.

Why don't the Wings have a draft list like every other team in the NHL?

If the Wings do have a draft list, why would they deviate from it so early in the draft?

Why does everyone think that even if you let Hakan alone make a first round pick, he would necessarily select a Euro with out pick?

In my judgment, the only legitimate question to ask about our European scouting is why haven't we drafted more Russians?

I think there is probably more cross-over scouting now than ever before.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

If you guys honestly think Holland didn’t value the opinion of the guy who found him Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Kronwall/Franzen/etc, then I just don’t know what to tell you.

The reality is when you are consistently picking between 20-32 (for an extended period) you are dealing with most shitty options, whether that is NA or Euro.

No need for this.

I think there is probably more cross-over scouting now than ever before.

Even without express cross-over scouting, there is plenty of international tournament hockey to scout. It is extremely naive to think our scouts have no idea who the best players from other countries are in a given age group. Maybe they don't know the fifth or sixth rounders, but they sure know those projected to go in the first round.

 

[Frk It]

Even without express cross-over scouting, there is plenty of international tournament hockey to scout. It is extremely naive to think our scouts have no idea who the best players from other countries are in a given age group. Maybe they don't know the fifth or sixth rounders, but they sure know those projected to go in the first round.

I would guess Hakan probably watches some NA players and has opinions, and Draper probably watches a lot more of the European players than people on here realize.

Covid and the evolution of InStat has really opened teams up more to the value of video scouting, from everything I have heard or gathered.