Why Anže Kopitar should be front-runner for MVP

[King'sPawn]

Listen, I can't explain to you why Giroux doesn't play the PK other than he's our top guy and they want to cut his minutes in places where he doesn't need to play.

He's definitely better than our other PKing fowards -- seriously. I'm not saying Giroux is better than Kopitar, but using his PK TOI isn't going to accurately assess his performance there. He can only play the minutes he's given for PK. He used to do it a lot more, but Hak cut his usage for some reason.

He was 5th/6th in PK TOI/game among forwards on his team before Hakstol.

I'm not saying Giroux is a bad PKer, but more than one coach has consistently preferred other options over him. Saying he's undoubtedly the best PKer on a team (among the best in the league) based on PK Corsi rel is flawed.

 

[redcard]

Well, I don't think that's a very good argument from you OR him. His TOI for a bad PK isn't enough to say he's better or worse than Kopitar.

The general thesis of the past few pages is that team shot attempts for and against relative to teammates in short handed situations isn't going to accurately assess ones performance on the PK, which is exactly what you're saying with TOI. We're making the same argument, not for or against either player's abilities, but that each stat makes zero sense without context.

 

[Jtown]

He was 5th/6th in PK TOI/game among forwards on his team before Hakstol.

I'm not saying Giroux is a bad PKer, but more than one coach has consistently preferred other options over him. Saying he's undoubtedly the best PKer on a team (among the best in the league) based on PK Corsi rel is flawed.

Lets take a hypothetical situation in which your best pker is also your best pper and best ev player and generally regarded as best player. How would he be used?

you can't play giroux 25 minutes a game so that time is going to have to get cut into from some areas. I am glad Giroux doesn't have to pk as much as he used to, he is needed everywhere but when you have the 2nd highest scoring forward this decade , it makes sense to utilize him on offense as much as possible.

 

[Martyros]

Lets take a hypothetical situation in which your best pker is also your best pper and best ev player and generally regarded as best player. How would he be used?

you can't play giroux 25 minutes a game so that time is going to have to get cut into from some areas. I am glad Giroux doesn't have to pk as much as he used to, he is needed everywhere but when you have the 2nd highest scoring forward this decade , it makes sense to utilize him on offense as much as possible.

Kopitar is all 3, and is used in all situations. So, it's not that far out of reach to understand why your best pker would, you know, play on the pk more often than he does regardless of being the best player on the team.

 

[unicornpig]

giroux better defensively? stupidity getting out of control LOL

 

[King'sPawn]

Lets take a hypothetical situation in which your best pker is also your best pper and best ev player and generally regarded as best player. How would he be used?

you can't play giroux 25 minutes a game so that time is going to have to get cut into from some areas. I am glad Giroux doesn't have to pk as much as he used to, he is needed everywhere but when you have the 2nd highest scoring forward this decade , it makes sense to utilize him on offense as much as possible.

Kopitar is all 3 on the Kings and manages.

As for being glad your "best PKer" isn't being used more to help the 27th ranked PK in the league, I don't know what to tell you.

Seems like he should be used more to help the team prevent powerplay goals against to win.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'm having too much fun laughing at your inability to see your mistake.

You're farting in the bathtub and laughing at everyone else without realizing your own situation.

Lets take a hypothetical situation in which your best pker is also your best pper and best ev player and generally regarded as best player. How would he be used?

you can't play giroux 25 minutes a game so that time is going to have to get cut into from some areas. I am glad Giroux doesn't have to pk as much as he used to, he is needed everywhere but when you have the 2nd highest scoring forward this decade , it makes sense to utilize him on offense as much as possible.

Like Kopitar.

Thanks again for making it easy!

 

[Jtown]

Kopitar is all 3 on the Kings and manages.

As for being glad your "best PKer" isn't being used more to help the 27th ranked PK in the league, I don't know what to tell you.

Seems like he should be used more to help the team prevent powerplay goals against to win.

who do you think would help the flyers more on the pk? datsyuk and Bregeron or a starting caliber nhl goalie.

 

[Martyros]

who do you think would help the flyers more on the pk? datsyuk and Bregeron or a starting caliber nhl goalie.

....Datsyuk and Bergeron. If a player can use his knowledge of the game defensively to his advantage, he'll prevent second chance opportunities at the very least. Considering the team is outnumbered, one of their player will remain open to bang in rebounds. that's just one example as to why it is important to have your actual best defenders on the pk.

 

[King'sPawn]

who do you think would help the flyers more on the pk? datsyuk and Bregeron or a starting caliber nhl goalie.

If you have a goalie who's so bad, don't you want this penalty killing superstar who can suppress shot attempts against the goalie if he's so good at it?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

who do you think would help the flyers more on the pk? datsyuk and Bregeron or a starting caliber nhl goalie.

Given Phi goes from 12th in sv% at even strength to 31st on the PK, I'm gonna go ahead and say that's more a personnel/system problem than a "our goalies are outright terrible" goalie problem. At least, I'm going to say that without watching the games. Is that fair?

 

[redcard]

who do you think would help the flyers more on the pk? datsyuk and Bregeron or a starting caliber nhl goalie.

Bergeron's PK corsi rel is a mere 1.2. Last season he won the selke with a -4.4 PK corsi rel. Much worse the Kopi's current PK corsi rel.

Because its meaningless.

 

[driller1]

i guess stats and facts don't matter.

Stats have no relevancy when they are used out of context. You lose credibility when you claim forwards on the Kings who do not kill penalties are somehow better than Kopitar at the PK. Apparently, things like sample size have no meaning for you.

well. they are based off of statstical analysis. Kopi is a distanced forth in pk ability behind shore rieder and brown. ainec.

So basically, you have no clue what you are talking about. If you use stats, you should 1) know what they mean and 2) understand the importance of sample size. Corsi is not based off of statistical analysis. Nor is relative Corsi. Both of those are simply numbers. They are decidedly not based off of statistical analysis. And small sample size bias (in the case of PK'ers who have very little PK time) make a big difference. I see that you never took basic statistics.

What you are arguing is: On a really, really bad penalty killing team that is ranked 27th out of 31, Giroux is slightly less bad than the average penalty killer who is decidedly bad (as evidenced by their 27th ranking).

 

[redcard]

Based off Jtown's understanding of PK corsi rel, the Bruins would have faired better on the PK without Patrice Bergeron in 2012 (-1.6), 2014 (-1.2), and 2017 (-4.4).

Bergeron won the Selke each of those years. "Advanced" stats.

 

[Jtown]

So basically, you have no clue what you are talking about. If you use stats, you should 1) know what they mean and 2) understand the importance of sample size. Corsi is not based off of statistical analysis. Nor is relative Corsi. Both of those are simply numbers. They are decidedly not based off of statistical analysis. And small sample size bias (in the case of PK'ers who have very little PK time) make a big difference. I see that you never took basic statistics.

What you are arguing is: On a really, really bad penalty killing team that is ranked 27th out of 31, Giroux is slightly less bad than the average penalty killer who is decidedly bad (as evidenced by their 27th ranking).

what if that small sample size is in alignmet with his career pk numbers? still want to criticize then?

so basicaclly you have no clue what you are talking about if you bleivve that a 27th rated pk is the fault of Claude Giroux and not the team that fields the lowest sv percentage short handed of any team in the league.

 

[redcard]

Claude Giroux's PK corsi rel last 3 seasons

2015: -1.3
2016: 2.3
2017: -1.4

"alignment with career pk numbers"

 

[King'sPawn]

what if that small sample size is in alignmet with his career pk numbers? still want to criticize then?

so basicaclly you have no clue what you are talking about if you bleivve that a 27th rated pk is the fault of Claude Giroux and not the team that fields the lowest sv percentage short handed of any team in the league.

You ignored the question. If he's so great in the PK, and the goalies are so bad, why isn't he out there to stop shots against to help the team win?

And why is he consistently #5/6 among forwards used on the PK with multiple coaches spanning several seasons?

Who said the poor PK numbers are his fault? I think most of us are saying if he was so great at the PK, he'd be used more to elevate it (for example, Kopitar).

 

[Jtown]

Claude Giroux's PK corsi rel last 3 seasons

2015: -1.3
2016: 2.3
2017: -1.4

"alignment with career pk numbers"

now go back when he was afull time pker..... but hey atleast you are using stats. you are more advanced than most .

 

[redcard]

now go back when he was afull time pker..... but hey atleast you are using stats. you are more advanced than most .

Still below this season's number. Still waiting on your explanation for Bergeron's negative value for PK corsi rel on those 3 Selke trophy seasons.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Lets take a hypothetical situation in which your best pker is also your best pper and best ev player and generally regarded as best player. How would he be used?

you can't play giroux 25 minutes a game so that time is going to have to get cut into from some areas. I am glad Giroux doesn't have to pk as much as he used to, he is needed everywhere but when you have the 2nd highest scoring forward this decade , it makes sense to utilize him on offense as much as possible.

So....your first paragraph describes Kopitar, yet..he plays more PK....hmm

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

what if that small sample size is in alignmet with his career pk numbers? still want to criticize then?

so basicaclly you have no clue what you are talking about if you bleivve that a 27th rated pk is the fault of Claude Giroux and not the team that fields the lowest sv percentage short handed of any team in the league.

Yet, that same save percentage goes to 12th, when 5 on 5.....maybe it's not the goaltenders, maybe its not using your best PK as you know...a PKer

 

[King'sPawn]

now go back when he was afull time pker..... but hey atleast you are using stats. you are more advanced than most .

Since 2010/2011 Season, here are the average PK/Game for Giroux relative to other forwards who played most of the season (more than half) on the Flyers:
2011: Betts - 3:37, Powe - 3:10, Richards - 2:08, Giroux - 2:06
2012: Talbot - 3:29, Couturier - 2:41, Read - 2:35, Giroux - 2:14
2013: Talbot - 3:28, Fedotenko - 2:51, Couturier - 2:31, Read - 2:04, Giroux - 1:42
2014: Couturier - 3:25, Read - 3:04, Hall - 2:58, Raffl - 1:44, Giroux - 0:56
2015: Couturier - 2:19, Bellemare - 2:03, Read - 2:00, Vandevelde - 1:41, Umberger - 0:58, Raffl - 0:56, Giroux - 0:45
2016: Bellemare - 2:35, Vandevelde - 2:17, Couturier - 1:50, Read - 1:40, Giroux - 1:28
2017: Bellemare - 2:46, Vandevelde - 2:30, Couturier - 1:50, Simmonds - 1:30, Read - 0:53, Lyubimov - 0:29, Giroux - 0:15
2018: Couturier - 1:55, Filpulla - 1:18, Raffl - 1:06, Laughton - 1:04, Simmonds - 0:53, Giroux - 0:49

For comparison, here are Kopitar's average PK time/game relative to other forwards who played more than half the season. I'll only list the forwards ahead of Kopitar like I did for Giroux
2011: Handzus - 2:24, Kopitar - 2:03
2012: Kopitar - 2:14
2013: Stoll - 2:04, Lewis - 1:50, Kopitar - 1:29
2014: Stoll - 2:06, Kopitar - 2:00
2015: Kopitar - 1:40
2016: Kopitar - 2:09
2017: Kopitar - 1:54
2018: Kopitar - 2:12

So when was Giroux a full time PKer? Seems like several players were prioritized over Giroux. Last time he was among the top four forwards in PK time/game (one of the top two units) was 2012. The Flyers were a whopping 17th overall in the league when he was regularly one of the top two PK units.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

When you're sick of getting ripped to shreds, there's a "Giroux for Hart" thread right here that allows you to pump his tires without trying to shit on Anze Kopitar for inexplicable reasons:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/claude-giroux-hart-trophy.2470867/page-6

 

[Martyros]

When you're sick of getting ripped to shreds, there's a "Giroux for Hart" thread right here that allows you to pump his tires without trying to **** on Anze Kopitar for inexplicable reasons:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/claude-giroux-hart-trophy.2470867/page-6

but where's the fun in that?

 

[redcard]

but where's the fun in that?

Yeah I started having a lot more fun once I started looking up players PK corsi rel stats.

Victor Hedman : -0.3
Erik Karlsson: 9.5