Who would you pick 1OA, Lemieux or McDavid?

[Midnight Judges]

He had cancer and a degenerative back condition. Your post is borderline libelous.

No it isn't. Your post is bordering on libelous:

Mario Lemieux was once asked in an interview how he plans to prepare for a new hockey season…
His answer?

“I’ll stop ordering fries with my club sandwich.”​

In past years, he had shown up to camp and dominated simply because he was Mario Lemieux. Phil Bourque recalled one time asking him where he’d been all summer, because Bourque hadn’t seen him. “This is the first day I put my skates on,” Lemieux had said.

Mario Lemieux was a smoker and it was well-documented that he didn't keep himself in shape like Wayne Gretzky did.

 

[thadd]

McDavid. As a prospect he showed he was willing to work to be great. Mario was historically lazy and a lot his health issues were self inflicted.

He didn't hit the gym until the 90's.

 

[shakes the clown]

Yes, cancer and a bad back from constant abuse on the ice are certainly things he could have avoided if he'd only worked out harder in the gym.

I once had a doctor tell me the best way to avoid cancer is to bench press more.

 

[blundluntman]

No it isn't. Your post is bordering on libelous:





Mario Lemieux was a smoker and it was well-documented that he didn't keep himself in shape like Wayne Gretzky did.

Eating fries and not being a gym rat wasn't the leading cause of degenerative back conditions and Hodgkin's disease (which is a blood cancer, not lung cancer as far as smoking goes; also it was probably genetic as he had a cousin die from the same condition). Mario had quit smoking and began working much harder after the Canada Cup in 87 anyway (6 years before he was diagnosed), it's very probable that his lack of off-season training afterward was symptomatic of his back issues, not the cause of it. This narrative of him being a slacker his entire career has been overblown way too much. It was an issue during juniors and his rookie/sophomore seasons, but it's well documented that his mentality changed after playing with Gretzky in 87. Blaming health issues as extreme as those on laziness is very unfair to say the least.

 

[BraveCanadian]

He did enough to win 2 Cups, and put up Gretzky numbers, carving through entire teams. He didn't have a Draisaitl or Messier/Kurrt until like 1993. Stooping to calling Mario lazy is funny. He was better than McDavid.

Wut? The early 90s Pens were stacked.

Also, Lemieux was lazy and there is plenty documenting it.

He (half) jokingly said his off season training before camp was to stop ordering fries with his club sandwich.

Also this: NHL NOTES : Lemieux's Lack of Conditioning May Have Contributed to Problem

He may still be more talented than McDavid but it’s a tough call who to pick if you know in advance how much time Mario will miss

 

[Video Nasty]

How do you know this? I don’t remember ever reading or seeing reports that Lemieux let himself go and didn’t care about this health

I once had a doctor tell me the best way to avoid cancer is to bench press more.

Eating fries and not being a gym rat wasn't the leading cause of degenerative back conditions and Hodgkin's disease (which is a blood cancer, not lung cancer as far as smoking goes; also it was probably genetic as he had a cousin die from the same condition). Mario had quit smoking and began working much harder after the Canada Cup in 87 anyway (6 years before he was diagnosed), it's very probable that his lack of off-season training afterward was symptomatic of his back issues, not the cause of it. This narrative of him being a slacker his entire career has been overblown way too much. It was an issue during juniors and his rookie/sophomore seasons, but it's well documented that his mentality changed after playing with Gretzky in 87. Blaming health issues as extreme as those on laziness is very unfair to say the least.

March 4, 1990 article towards the end of the 1989-1990 season.

Debunking the fairy tale

“This back thing has been going on for two, three years and everybody has been aware of it. I think some people think this is just another one of his ordeals. That it was nothing serious. But there were times when his lower back really caused him pain and discomfort and he played with it. But a herniated disk is a different circumstance. He didn’t have that before.”

As any of the Whalers will tell you, McKenney is a most insistent man. Before he came from Pittsburgh with General Manager Ed Johnston, he used to be on Lemieux all the time to stretch the muscles in his trunk to prevent injury. Even McKenney could not keep Lemieux locked into his regimen, so one could imagine how it was after he left.

“Mario always had some back discomfort,” McKenney said. “The main gist of what we could gather from physician, trainer and conditioning coach discussing it was that he had a lack of flexibility in the lower back and hamstrings. Every time we took the approach of trying to lengthen that muscle and stretch it, we really got some decent results. He has shortening of those muscles and that’s what created that problem. It’s not genetic.

“The exercises they are doing now with the herniated disk are the same sort we were doing to prevent it initially. I don’t think there’s any doubt he’s going to need an operation. What they’re doing now is trying to alleviate some of the bad pain he’s having and hope it will let him be involved in the playoffs. My personal opinion is that they’re prolonging the obvious: surgery.”

The guy couldn’t stay locked into a routine.

P.S. Oh and let’s not forget why he unlocked the next level of his powers during and after the 1987 Canada Cup (Gretzky the master taught Lemieux the student).

 

[HarryLime]

Wut? The early 90s Pens were stacked.

Also, Lemieux was lazy and there is plenty documenting it.

He (half) jokingly said his off season training before camp was to stop ordering fries with his club sandwich.

Also this: NHL NOTES : Lemieux's Lack of Conditioning May Have Contributed to Problem

He may still be more talented than McDavid but it’s a tough call who to pick if you know in advance how much time Mario will miss

He didn't have a bonified top 5 player in the league until Jagr was prime Jagr in 93. Nothing wrong with what I said.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Eating fries and not being a gym rat wasn't the leading cause of degenerative back conditions and Hodgkin's disease (which is a blood cancer, not lung cancer as far as smoking goes; also it was probably genetic as he had a cousin die from the same condition). Mario had quit smoking and began working much harder after the Canada Cup in 87 anyway (6 years before he was diagnosed), it's very probable that his lack of off-season training afterward was symptomatic of his back issues, not the cause of it. This narrative of him being a slacker his entire career has been overblown way too much. It was an issue during juniors and his rookie/sophomore seasons, but it's well documented that his mentality changed after playing with Gretzky in 87. Blaming health issues as extreme as those on laziness is very unfair to say the least.

Lemieux missed all of 22 games with Hodgkins. Nobody was saying it was due to smoking - which is obviously not a connection.

Your history is just plain false. Lemieux continued smoking right up until 1994, not 1987.

His lack of offseason training had jack squat to do with any of that. It's just what his habit was. His doctors tried to get him to train on a regimen because they knew it would be better for his back, and he just wouldn't do it.

 

[Midnight Judges]

March 4, 1990 article towards the end of the 1989-1990 season.

Debunking the fairy tale

“This back thing has been going on for two, three years and everybody has been aware of it. I think some people think this is just another one of his ordeals. That it was nothing serious. But there were times when his lower back really caused him pain and discomfort and he played with it. But a herniated disk is a different circumstance. He didn’t have that before.”

As any of the Whalers will tell you, McKenney is a most insistent man. Before he came from Pittsburgh with General Manager Ed Johnston, he used to be on Lemieux all the time to stretch the muscles in his trunk to prevent injury. Even McKenney could not keep Lemieux locked into his regimen, so one could imagine how it was after he left.

“Mario always had some back discomfort,” McKenney said. “The main gist of what we could gather from physician, trainer and conditioning coach discussing it was that he had a lack of flexibility in the lower back and hamstrings. Every time we took the approach of trying to lengthen that muscle and stretch it, we really got some decent results. He has shortening of those muscles and that’s what created that problem. It’s not genetic.

“The exercises they are doing now with the herniated disk are the same sort we were doing to prevent it initially. I don’t think there’s any doubt he’s going to need an operation. What they’re doing now is trying to alleviate some of the bad pain he’s having and hope it will let him be involved in the playoffs. My personal opinion is that they’re prolonging the obvious: surgery.”

The guy couldn’t stay locked into a routine.

P.S. Oh and let’s not forget why he unlocked the next level of his powers during and after the 1987 Canada Cup (Gretzky the master taught Lemieux the student).

You clipped out the most telling parts of this otherwise puff piece:

“I think Mario got the reputation because he was the type of guy who would lay on the ice after he got sticked,” Hartford Whalers strength coach Doug McKenney said. “He’d wait for a referee’s call. I think he pretty well has got the reputation that he milks things.

“This back thing has been going on for two, three years and everybody has been aware of it. I think some people think this is just another one of his ordeals. That it was nothing serious. But there were times when his lower back really caused him pain and discomfort and he played with it. But a herniated disk is a different circumstance. He didn’t have that before.”


As any of the Whalers will tell you, McKenney is a most insistent man. Before he came from Pittsburgh with General Manager Ed Johnston, he used to be on Lemieux all the time to stretch the muscles in his trunk to prevent injury. Even McKenney could not keep Lemieux locked into his regimen, so one could imagine how it was after he left.

 

[Dumais]

If McDavid is like the older brother who shows off and beats you with skill and blinding speed....

Then Mario is the Dad who puts your older brother into the boards, comes straight at you, and smiling, throws the puck into your skates, ...confused you look down only to realize; the old man has skated by you while digging the puck out from your skates.

 

[Video Nasty]

You clipped out the most telling parts of this otherwise puff piece:

I made my case stronger and was being diplomatic by omitting the portion about Mario’s reputation. I chose to stick to it being all about how he would slack off after awhile from his regimen.

Overall, Mario had the potential to be the greatest, but because he was a freak, he thought he could get away with not working as hard and it worked a lot of the time. But he did himself no favors and as mentioned, the cancer in his lymph node was in its earliest and least dangerous stage, with a 90-95% cure rate. It doesn’t make his comeback any less incredible, since radiation therapy is draining, but none of his career up to that point was affected by it, as so commonly “romanticized.” The storybook element puffs this legend up more than necessary at times.

And once I’ve dug into the actual facts, it’s clear that a lot of his back problems could have been mitigated or outright prevented, but he didn’t keep up with it and it led to mostly preventable injuries that most of the hockey world bemoans as simple bad luck.

 

[psycat]

Unless McDavid falls off a cliff or gets an early career ending injury, he's going to easily surpass Lemieux in terms of total career value.

I actually agree but you, presumably, wouldn't know that in a draft scenario. Lemieux was the better player, McDavid might very well top him for career value but will still likely be ranked below for most(again not what the poll is about though).

 

[blundluntman]

March 4, 1990 article towards the end of the 1989-1990 season.

Debunking the fairy tale

“This back thing has been going on for two, three years and everybody has been aware of it. I think some people think this is just another one of his ordeals. That it was nothing serious. But there were times when his lower back really caused him pain and discomfort and he played with it. But a herniated disk is a different circumstance. He didn’t have that before.”

As any of the Whalers will tell you, McKenney is a most insistent man. Before he came from Pittsburgh with General Manager Ed Johnston, he used to be on Lemieux all the time to stretch the muscles in his trunk to prevent injury. Even McKenney could not keep Lemieux locked into his regimen, so one could imagine how it was after he left.

“Mario always had some back discomfort,” McKenney said. “The main gist of what we could gather from physician, trainer and conditioning coach discussing it was that he had a lack of flexibility in the lower back and hamstrings. Every time we took the approach of trying to lengthen that muscle and stretch it, we really got some decent results. He has shortening of those muscles and that’s what created that problem. It’s not genetic.

“The exercises they are doing now with the herniated disk are the same sort we were doing to prevent it initially. I don’t think there’s any doubt he’s going to need an operation. What they’re doing now is trying to alleviate some of the bad pain he’s having and hope it will let him be involved in the playoffs. My personal opinion is that they’re prolonging the obvious: surgery.”

The guy couldn’t stay locked into a routine.

P.S. Oh and let’s not forget why he unlocked the next level of his powers during and after the 1987 Canada Cup (Gretzky the master taught Lemieux the student).

Fair enough, he probably could've done more to help prevent the disc issues, but at worst, treating the disc injury wouldn't have kept him out of action for too long so I'd assume he would rather get it treated; he already had back issues beforehand that made exercising painful/uncomfortable anyway.

The herniated disc was actually treated and they completed surgery in July, it was an extremely rare bone infection after the surgery (caused either by complications from the surgery or a flu from what I've read) that caused him so much trouble. Like I said, I'll admit he could've done more, but the herniated disc itself wasn't the issue, it was the infection (which wasn't a result of his conditioning). I already acknowledged Gretzky playing with Lemieux in 87 was a big reason he finally hit full stride, my point was the major things that derailed his career weren't a direct result of his poor conditioning, there was a lot of terrible luck involved.

Lemieux missed all of 22 games with Hodgkins. Nobody was saying it was due to smoking - which is obviously not a connection.

Your history is just plain false. Lemieux continued smoking right up until 1994, not 1987.

His lack of offseason training had jack squat to do with any of that. It's just what his habit was. His doctors tried to get him to train on a regimen because they knew it would be better for his back, and he just wouldn't do it.

He literally said in an ESPN interview with Dan Patrick that he stopped when he was twenty-two years old: Dan Patrick:Outtakes: Mario Lemieux (uncut).
You referred to him as a smoker which implied it was related to his injury history; whether you were referring to cancer or his back issues, it's still not true.

And degenerative back conditions (something he had 3 years prior to the lower disc injury) 100% make it difficult to train. It's well known that after the 87 Canada Cup, he changed his approach to the game, which was reflected in the leaps he took in 88 and 89 (as well as personal accounts from players around him during/after the Canada Cup).

Could he have done more? Sure, but he didn't miss as much time as he did because he was too lazy to keep himself in shape. The bone infection (which was what made him miss so much time, not the herniated disc) was extremely rare and had nothing to do with conditioning (it was caused by complications in surgery or the flu). The back issue wasn't because of conditioning either. The disc issue was somewhat avoidable, but also very much treatable.

I'm not going to argue Mario was Arnold Schwarzenegger, but acting like he sabotaged his own career by being a couch potato is going too far.

 

[norrisnick]

NO REGRETS MARIO LEMIEUX HAS DECIDED TO END HIS BRILLIANT NHL CAREER, AND FOR HIM--BUT NOT FOR THE PENGUINS--HIS RETIREMENT IS COMING NOT A MOMENT TOO SOON

With little fanfare and less regret, Mario Lemieux made itofficial last Saturday at the Dapper Dan charity dinner at thePittsburgh Hilton. This would be his

vault.si.com

Lemieux was only 29 when he took the 1994-95 season off to try to regain his health, working with massage therapist Tom Plasko. "He'd never lifted weights before," says Plasko. "His upper body was very weak compared to his lower body, and we tried to balance it. We also did a lot on the treadmill, a lot on the stationary bike. Leg curls. It was grueling, 2 1/2 hours every morning--the hardest thing I've ever seen anyone do."

Credit for identifying the issue and working on it, but 10 years in, the damage had been done by that point.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You referred to him as a smoker which implied it was related to his injury history;

No. It flat out doesn't.

Your statement here is a complete non-sequitur.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I'm not going to argue Mario was Arnold Schwarzenegger, but acting like he sabotaged his own career by being a couch potato is going too far.

The how and the why isn't particularly relevant (although it is obvious that Lemieux did not maximize his fitness the way numerous other players of his own generation did).

The fact is Lemieux lacked durability and it reduces his value as a player.

 

[spiny norman]

Lopsided result.