Speculation: Who will we draft with #4? Part II

[Stand Witness]

Arizona wants Marner and Philly needs a new Pronger replacement so teams trade position and each gets their player and Arionza picks up more assets to move back.

Or Arizona takes Marner at 3 and Philly takes Provorov at 7.

Now Philly gets a blue chip D man and keeps their other 1st round pick

 

[Stephen]

Marner could be that new Sakic, right?

 

[34]

Marner AINEC. Hanifin is overrated and Strome does not have half the skill of Marner. Strome is just living off the fame of his brother.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Besides the point. There are definitely small players in these team's cores. Keith and Kane are well under 200 (Keith is listed at 192 on NHL.com) and they are very important to the Hawks. 3 of Boston's 4 best forwards are all under 200 (Bergeron, Krejci and Marchand, doesn't ****ing matter "how big they play"). Doesn't seen so "Sprinkled when half of their top-6 forwards are under 200.

And the most successful team before the arbitrary 5-year mark that you set, Detroit, happened to have their 3 main core players all under 200 (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom). Oh yeah, don't forget they also featured Kronwall and Rafalski as their next best 2 D who were both under 200 pounds. Hudler and Filppula too as 2 of their better forwards, under 200 pounds. How was a team that was successful for so incredibly long consisted of so many guys who aren't big?

And above all this, like I said; Marner has the superior 2-way game to Strome, he plays more physical, and he's far more tenacious and does things way better than Strome away from the puck. You accuse Marner supporters of only wanting him for "his flash" when he's superior in other aspects of the game.

And I have zero clue what your definition of strawman is, you always utterly confuse me when you bring up this fallacy.

Keith is 4 lbs under 200 lbs. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=63187 Well under 200 lbs is not accurate. You have made this assertion twice, and I have corrected it twice yet you keep clinging to this. 192-196 is not a small player. You are talking about small skilled players, can find more than Kane in the 180 range? Look at the quote of Futa below. You can have some, but you can't have a plethora of small players and expect to win cups.

Futher Detroit has not won a cup in awhile since losing to bigger Western conference teams(SJ 2x, Chicago, and Nashville) when they were out west. They have drafted nothing but big skilled players the last 4 drafts. I listed the list in the draft thread. Go ahead look it up if you are going to cite Detroit as the model franchise, they are adjusting and learning.

I addressed all your follow up questions even when I did not have to, since they were clear to begin with. I don't think you know what strawman means since you are making up arguments on the fly now.

Boston, LA, and Chicago's rosters have been posted up above. I mentioned a Kane, Williams, and a Marchand as the smaller skilled player sprinkled into teams that were built for size and skill. Again. Futa agrees, Detroit is trending the same way.

You cannot argue with LA's, Chicago's and Boston's success. If a smaller skilled team had won the cup recently, let me know who they were.

"I don't think a plethora of smaller players is going to get you anywhere. You can have a mix but I don't think you can have a team of smaller players" ~ Mike Futa.

So unless you want to address my replies specifically. I will take it you have nothing to add to this conversation. Except make up more arguments that have nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[Purity*]

Keith is 4 lbs under 200 lbs. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=63187 Well under 200 lbs is not accurate. You have made this assertion twice, and I have corrected it twice yet you keep clinging to this. 192-196 is not a small player. You are talking about small skilled players, can find more than Kane in the 180 range? Look at the quote of Futa below. You can have some, but you can't have a plethora of small players and expect to win cups.

Futher Detroit has not won a cup in awhile since losing to bigger Western conference teams(SJ 2x, Chicago, and Nashville) when they were out west. They have drafted nothing but big skilled players the last 4 drafts. I listed the list in the draft thread. Go ahead look it up if you are going to cite Detroit as the model franchise, they are adjusting and learning.

I addressed all your follow up questions even when I did not have to, since they were clear to begin with. I don't think you know what strawman means since you are making up arguments on the fly now.

Boston, LA, and Chicago's rosters have been posted up above. I mentioned a Kane, Williams, and a Marchand as the smaller skilled player sprinkled into teams that were built for size and skill. Again. Futa agrees, Detroit is trending the same way.

You cannot argue with LA's, Chicago's and Boston's success. If a smaller skilled team had won the cup recently, let me know who they were.

"I don't think a plethora of smaller players is going to get you anywhere. You can have a mix but I don't think you can have a team of smaller players" ~ Mike Futa.

So unless you want to address my replies specifically. I will take it you have nothing to add to this conversation. Except make up more arguments that have nothing to do with the discussion.

I didn't state anywhere that you could have a top-6 consisting of nothing but small players and win a cup. Boston winning a cup with half small forwards and half big forwards seemed to be pretty accurate. You talk about strawman and you have zero idea what it means whatsoever.

I have no idea how you can assert that Chicago is "built for size." Their game is built around fast transition and maintaining possession through speed and skill.

If you're gonna say that I'm "making up arguments on the fly" atleast specify, eh?

Oh yeah, and NHL.com lists Keith at 192. I have no idea what site is accurate (you probably don't either) but I'll go with the official site over anything else.

Asserting that I'm saying "you can with a plethora of small players" is called a strawman. I have no idea what you think it is.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I didn't state anywhere that you could have a top-6 consisting of nothing but small players and win a cup. Boston winning a cup with half small forwards and half big forwards seemed to be pretty accurate. You talk about strawman and you have zero idea what it means whatsoever.

I have no idea how you can assert that Chicago is "built for size." Their game is built around fast transition and maintaining possession through speed and skill.

If you're gonna say that I'm "making up arguments on the fly" atleast specify, eh?

Oh yeah, and NHL.com lists Keith at 192. I have no idea what site is accurate (you probably don't either) but I'll go with the official site over anything else.

Asserting that I'm saying "you can with a plethora of small players" is called a strawman. I have no idea what you think it is.

The rosters for Boston, LA, and Chicago were posted. As were core players Toews, Hossa, Seabrook, Keith, Sharp. Keith is the smallest player at 196 of these core players. Again what Futa has said has been confirmed.

There is only one small skilled player on this roster. Kane. What exactly do you not understand about Futa's philosophy? It's as clear as spring water.

"I don't think a plethora of smaller players is going to get you anywhere. You can have a mix but I don't think you can have a team of smaller players" ~ Mike Futa.

Chicago Cup winning rosters.

Byfuglien 265
Bickell 233
Bollig 223
Seabrook 218
Handzus 215
Brouwer 213
Rozsival 212
Toews 210
Hossa 210
Stalberg 210
Smith 207
Ladd 205
Hjalmarsson 205
Saad 202
Sopal 201
Sharp 199
Keith 196
Leddy 191
Oduya 190
Bolland 184
Versteeg 183
Kane 181
Shaw 180

 

[Brewsky]

i have my doubts about nylander becoming a 1c. i guess we need to see how he does playing center in the ahl first. he definitely can be as good or better then kessel as a winger so that is awsome. whether he can become a center is yet to be determined.

i really cannot see toronto passing on hanifin. we need EVERY position practically but assuming the leafs go bpa i dont see how it isnt hanifin at 4.

If we're going BPA, then Hanifin shouldn't even be on the board when we're picking. He should go 3rd.

 

[Stephen]

"I don't think a plethora of smaller players is going to get you anywhere. You can have a mix but I don't think you can have a team of smaller players" ~ Mike Futa.

So unless you want to address my replies specifically. I will take it you have nothing to add to this conversation. Except make up more arguments that have nothing to do with the discussion.

At the same time, Mike Futa wouldn't kick Patrick Kane off his team.

 

[Purity*]

The rosters for Boston, LA, and Chicago were posted. As were core players Toews, Hossa, Seabrook, Keith, Sharp. Keith is the smallest player at 196 of these core players. Again what Futa has said has been confirmed.

There is only one small skilled player on this roster. Kane. What exactly do you not understand about Futa's philosophy? It's as clear as spring water.

"I don't think a plethora of smaller players is going to get you anywhere. You can have a mix but I don't think you can have a team of smaller players" ~ Mike Futa.

Chicago Cup winning rosters.

Byfuglien 265
Bickell 233
Bollig 223
Seabrook 218
Handzus 215
Brouwer 213
Rozsival 212
Toews 210
Hossa 210
Stalberg 210
Smith 207
Ladd 205
Hjalmarsson 205
Saad 202
Sopal 201
Sharp 199
Keith 196
Leddy 191
Oduya 190
Bolland 184
Versteeg 183
Kane 181
Shaw 180

Seriously where are you getting these listings from? Toews 210??? He's listed at 201 on NHL.com. Hjalmarsson is listed at 197. Ben Smith listed at 197. Keith at 192. Are you making these up or something? Whichever site is more accurate is a whole other topic for argument. Oh and don't forget Kruger at 180 who is one of Chicago's main shutdown guys.

Oh and btw, the average size in the NHL is 6-foot-1.3 and 203.7 pounds. So by "big" players, I would assume you would mean above that size. Going by that standard, it's about half and half as far as the Chicago roster goes. Exactly what I think it is.

This is such a subjective and fuzzy thing to argue about as well, just because a player is "big" it doesn't mean they play physical yet you will continue to cast your opinion as fact

 

[The Winter Soldier]

At the same time, Mike Futa wouldn't kick Patrick Kane off his team.

No one is suggesting this. I keep repeating this there is a place for a Kane, Wiliams, And even Kessel on teams if the team is built with size and skill to make a long playoff run. But you do not build a team with 24 Kane's either. This is what Futa is saying. You can have a few, but not a plethora of small players.

Looking at the last 5 cup winners, and even back to Anaheim when they won it. It's obvious why Futa's philosophy has worked.

 

[Purity*]

No one is suggesting this. I keep repeating this there is a place for a Kane, Wiliams, And even Kessel on teams if the team is built with size and skill to make a long playoff run. But you do not build a team with 24 Kane's either. This is what Futa is saying. You can have a few, but not a plethora of small players.

Looking at the last 5 cup winners, and even back to Anaheim when they won it. It's obvious why Futa's philosophy has worked.

Oh so we can look back to when Anaheim won it but ignore Detroit winning it with a small roster?

More double standard in action

 

[Knightnight]

Can't see Marner falling that far and I certainly can't see the Leafs taking Barzal over Marner.

Mess just can't let the constant shots at Marner go. Its in every post. You say players not playing are falling like rocks. Well its pretty evident Strome's stock is taking a hit while playing. He keeps bringing Barzal into the equation. I believe Barzal could replace Strome in top 5.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Seriously where are you getting these listings from? Toews 210??? He's listed at 201 on NHL.com. Hjalmarsson is listed at 197. Ben Smith listed at 197. Keith at 192. Are you making these up or something? Whichever site is more accurate is a whole other topic for argument. Oh and don't forget Kruger at 180 who is one of Chicago's main shutdown guys.

Oh and btw, the average size in the NHL is 6-foot-1.3 and 203.7 pounds. So by "big" players, I would assume you would mean above that size. Going by that standard, it's about half and half as far as the Chicago roster goes. Exactly what I think it is.

This is such a subjective and fuzzy thing to argue about as well, just because a player is "big" it doesn't mean they play physical yet you will continue to cast your opinion as fact

It's a long way away from building a team of Brown's at 170, Nylander at 174, and Marner if we draft Marner at 160. Even with projected growth, when you already have big skilled players available to draft. Hanifin is 6'3 203 lbs. No maybe's about it, size and skill already right? Takes the risk right out of it.

 

[Knightnight]

On the TSN 1050 website there is a poll question asking who the Leafs should select at 4th overall between Strome, Marner, and Hanifin? So far these are the results.

Strome: 65%

Marner: 19%

Hanifin: 16%

Because 95% of Leafs fans or NHL fans don't watch junior hockey period. They hear Stromes name in the media more than Marner or Hanifan and jump on the bandwagon.

 

[Purity*]

It's a long way away from building a team of Brown's at 170, Nylander at 174, and Marner if we draft Marner at 160. Even with projected growth, when you already have big skilled players available to draft. Hanifin is 6'3 203 lbs. No maybe's about it, size and skill already right? Takes the risk right out of it.

I agreed that we need to add size to our top-6. Add the point we're at in our rebuild, we can't afford to pass over a BPA like Marner (if Hanny is out at #3). Strome is definitely a riskier pick. If Hanifin is available I'm 100% for drafting him over Marner.

Put it this way, I would easily be in favor of trading Kadri if it meant making room for Marner.

 

[Knightnight]

Ahh going off on a tangent I see. Well I'll just have to hope that now you'll stop blatantly lying now when you say "Marner fans" only want him for his skill. No more lies friend that's all
I ask



McDavid is all that needs to be said here.

Is it Marner's fault he dominated a team in the Playoffs? Is Strome's 6 point game his fault for dominating a Niagara team with suspect defence? That is what good players do, they dominate lesser teams. Of course you have players like McDavid who dominates everyone and anyone at will but that's him. See how Nurse was hounding McDavid every game? Now imagine if McDavid was Marner instead. Regardless of if Marner is the 1C or Strome is the 1C Erie isn't going anywhere because I'm positive Nurse would effectively neutralize them. Strome was neutralized with out the need of Nurse hounding him anyway. Apparently he's injured so i'll give him the benefit of the doubt for his poor play, but even then, I doubt he would be able to do much against Nurse. Injured or not guy is just a beast.

Well said. If the Rangers were so easy to dominate then why did Marner double Domi's production against them. Its all relative. Patterson had the best save percentage after his trade to Kitchener. He was brought in to take them far in the playoffs.

 

[rdawg1234]

It's a long way away from building a team of Brown's at 170, Nylander at 174, and Marner if we draft Marner at 160. Even with projected growth, when you already have big skilled players available to draft. Hanifin is 6'3 203 lbs. No maybe's about it, size and skill already right? Takes the risk right out of it.

Nylander is 190 now.

we are not in a position to worry about size, we have two small forwards, that's it. adding one more doesnt mean the other 3 in the top six will be small as well, you guys are being extremely picky here.

if we were one piece away like say Tampa a couple years ago or Nash or whatever where we needed size then you can talk about it but we need basically everything, so the smart thing to do is take the player with the most skill imo.

 

[Purity*]

Nylander is 190 now.

we are not in a position to worry about size, we have two small forwards, that's it. adding one more doesnt mean the other 3 in the top six will be small as well, you guys are being extremely picky here.

if we were one piece away like say Tampa a couple years ago or Nash or whatever where we needed size then you can talk about it but we need basically everything, so the smart thing to do is take the player with the most skill imo.

Exactly. Marner looks like a player who can be a catalyst for his own line and drive the offense. Add in his great 2-way play and fierce competitive nature and you gotta take him. We can worry about drafting and developing bigger players in the later years.

 

[Mess]

Well "the next Sakic" is a bit unfair to Barzal right now.

But he's a very talented player.

McDavid and Barzal have been considered among top top 97 born draft class for years. Barzal is regarded as one of the top options behind Erie Otters star Connor McDavid for the 2015 NHL draft class.

He doesn't get the recognition he deserves because he plays in the west. Most of the media scouts covering the draft are located in the East, in places like Toronto or New York, and may pay less attention to the teams playing in the WHL.

“It is what it is,” Barzal says. “I know at the end of the day that if you’re playing good hockey out here somebody’s going to recognize.”

ISS Hockey ranks the explosive 16-year-old centreman as their No. 2-ranked skater for the 2015 NHL Draft, just behind Ontario Hockey League phenom, Connor McDavid.

He’s an excellent skater who always seems to have the puck and there may not be a player with better vision and passing ability in this draft class.

Despite the gaudy numbers he’s produced, Barzal continues to strive for improvement. “I think you have to get better at everything to get to the next level,” Barzal says. “Everyone’s faster, bigger and stronger so for me every day, I’ve got to work on something new.”

That work ethic has shown up this year in Seattle. Watching Barzal play this season you will see that he is skating with a stronger sense of confidence and more physical strength. Players who were able to separate him from the puck his rookie year now are stuck desperately hanging on for dear life as he powers past them. “I had a great summer, training hard back home. So I think that has paid some dividends,” he says. “I guess having a year experience, knowing how to use my body better and how to play against those bigger guys helps.”

 

[7even]

Arizona wants Marner and Philly needs a new Pronger replacement so teams trade position and each gets their player and Arionza picks up more assets to move back.

Don't think Philly needs a defenceman that badly, they've drafted like 60 of them recently. Their pool is hurting for forwards (outside of Laughton, I guess?) and goalies (Stolarz?).

 

[Mess]

Don't think Philly needs a defenceman that badly, they've drafted like 60 of them recently. Their pool is hurting for forwards (outside of Laughton, I guess?) and goalies (Stolarz?).

Good point .. Kessel to Philly for Brayden Schenn + 7th overall

Then if Leafs don't want to take Barzal at #4 they can at #7.

 

[ACC1224]

Exactly. Marner looks like a player who can be a catalyst for his own line and drive the offense. Add in his great 2-way play and fierce competitive nature and you gotta take him. We can worry about drafting and developing bigger players in the later years.

Not to worry, they will put much thought into the pick not just look at a Players size.

 

[Purity*]

Good point .. Kessel to Philly for Brayden Schenn + 7th overall

Then if Leafs don't want to take Barzal at #4 they can at #7.

I'd love if we figured out a way how to come out of this draft with both Hanifin and Barzal.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Marner could be that new Sakic, right?

He seems more Gilmour-like to me. I just don't see that kind of "efficiency" that I see in Barzal. One is more unselfish plays bigger than his size while the other is an elite - high intensity - heart and soul type. I'd also argue that Gilmour was more stronger defensively.

Personally, I'd take either. Wish we can acquire both especially if Hanifin goes at third.

 

[Orfieus]

I voted for Strome as I think Hanifin will be going 3rd over all. If Arizona is dumb and doesn't choose him then take Hanifin with a HUGE smile.

I want a team like Anaheim, LA and Washington. I want to be big, I want to be skilled and I want to be intimidating and Toronto needs to make a conscience decision to go this route. If the best player available is a kid who is 5'10" then maybe moving down in the draft is the best option.

That is just my opinion and probably not the most popular one. I just see the game as the team with the best defense and a decent offence has the best chance at winning.