Who Was Considered The Best From 1995-2005?

[MadLuke]

I think all kids love to put up points and would thus like to be in the best position to do it, but emulating their heroes probably factors in.

This could be a reason for the shift over time, once a Gordie Howe become people model (and then Gretzky, etc...) it can shift what the best kids choose to do.

Québec for example had some goaltending frenzy going on among the generation that grew up with Patrick Roy winnings cups for the Habs (could be partly media/scout created but there was probably something there).

Maybe that without Jordan, that Lebron would have started to play more like a point guard right away.

There is probably a hockey culture/heroes going on there, that could explain why despite producing so many all star forward Russia did less impressive at the defense and that Sweden is doing really well.

That marked difference is enough to not automatically see bias among voters has the main reason.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

What is also quite likely is talent distribution, does the best and most ambitious athlete kids naturally choose the forward position or not.

in my day, they put the good skaters up front, but both the best and the bad skaters on defence.

coaches liked to put the best couple of guys back there for the extra icetime and the guys who really couldn't skate because they could basically just stand still.

 

[quoipourquoi]

in my day, they put the good skaters up front, but both the best and the bad skaters on defence.

coaches liked to put the best couple of guys back there for the extra icetime and the guys who really couldn't skate because they could basically just stand still.

And I think it makes sense to do so. In the context of a 21-30 team league of the best players in the world however, those teams whose best player is a defenseman just might have problems accentuating that defenseman’s positives when it’s a question of getting recognition against the other 21-30 teams’ best player. Doesn’t matter how good your outlet passes are if the rush isn’t finished. Doesn’t matter how good shot prevention is if the goaltender allows a high percentage of the ones that get through.

I think in smaller leagues (or in the Olympics or in the deeper rounds of the playoffs, when focus is on specific teams), it translates better, because it becomes more about the visual than the statistical (Did they score 60 points? Did they make the playoffs? Are they a + player? Then they’re an All-Star).

Of the top-50 scorers from 1995-2005, 19 of them are defensemen, and of those top-50 scorers, the defensemen have 19 of the 20 lowest ratios of primary assists to secondary assists (Leetch and Gonchar are marginally ahead of Igor Larionov). Secondary assists are like the bread and butter of a defenseman’s numbers. After the defenseman makes the pass, the better the person they passed it to and the better the person they pass it to, the better the defenseman looks. If those two players do a better job one year than another, people think the defenseman is inconsistent.

I think the dependence on a good team to standout in a 21-30 team league really cannot be understated for the defensive position. Forwards and goaltenders kind of control their own perception, but how many defensemen really do when they’re not under the microscope in a smaller pool of teams?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

And I think it makes sense to do so. In the context of a 21-30 team league of the best players in the world however, those teams whose best player is a defenseman just might have problems accentuating that defenseman’s positives when it’s a question of getting recognition against the other 21-30 teams’ best player. Doesn’t matter how good your outlet passes are if the rush isn’t finished. Doesn’t matter how good shot prevention is if the goaltender allows a high percentage of the ones that get through.

i think of this as the ryan suter problem. from my eye test, including seeing him live a couple times, he was absolutely a top five dman in the league for probably the majority of a ten year prime. but if he didn't have his last name most people would probably have dan boyle ahead of him for the hall of fame.

 

[JackSlater]

I think the dependence on a good team to standout in a 21-30 team league really cannot be understated for the defensive position. Forwards and goaltenders kind of control their own perception, but how many defensemen really do when they’re not under the microscope in a smaller pool of teams?

I'd say that that is clearly true for defencemen compared to forwards. Put up big points on a bad team and you stand out in highlights and on the scoresheet, and sometimes the gap between that player and the crappy ones only accentuates this. Rarely does a player get credit for being by far the best defensive player on a bad team, mainly because people aren't going to notice it all that much. That's probably always going to be the case as long as hockey lacks eyecatching defensive statistics such as those found in basketball or football. Add in that defence is more collaborative than offence is and it seems even more unlikely that a defenceman would stand out positively while on a terrible team.

That's without getting into the offensive aspect f how defencemen get points that you touched on as well.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Once Lindros started declining, it was clearly Jagr by a large margin. He was the man in the late 90's.

 

[quoipourquoi]

The Paul Kariya talk in a few threads inspired me to re-pull the data from two tables we lost - both showing just how terrible it was in this time period to be a Western Conference player in the Spring.


1996-2002 Playoff Statistics
Non-COL/DAL/DET Players vs. COL/DAL/DET

Player	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	GWG	PTS/GP	G/GP
Rick Tocchet	6	6	2	8	0	25	0	1.33	1.00
Paul Kariya	7	3	5	8	-4	2	0	1.14	0.43
Jeremy Roenick	17	10	9	19	-2	16	3	1.12	0.59
Trevor Linden	12	5	8	13	0	6	0	1.08	0.42
Wayne Gretzky	7	2	5	7	-4	0	1	1.00	0.29
Eric Brewer	6	1	5	6	-3	2	0	1.00	0.17
Dmitri Mironov	4	0	4	4	-3	6	0	1.00	0.00
Jeff Brown	2	0	2	2	1	0	0	1.00	0.00
Brett Hull	19	6	11	17	-2	8	1	0.89	0.32
Tony Amonte	9	5	3	8	2	10	0	0.89	0.56
Jason Allison	7	3	3	6	2	4	1	0.86	0.43
Shayne Corson	7	3	3	6	-5	18	0	0.86	0.43
Bernie Nicholls	12	1	9	10	-2	10	0	0.83	0.08
John MacLean	6	2	3	5	1	4	0	0.83	0.33
Teemu Selanne	15	9	3	12	-9	4	1	0.80	0.60
Todd Bertuzzi	10	4	4	8	0	22	0	0.80	0.40
Jeff O'Neill	5	3	1	4	-2	2	0	0.80	0.60
Ziggy Palffy	24	9	10	19	4	8	0	0.79	0.38
Doug Weight	44	10	24	34	-10	62	2	0.77	0.23
Patrik Elias	13	2	8	10	4	2	0	0.77	0.15
Jason Arnott	24	8	10	18	-1	24	1	0.75	0.33
Mike Ricci	24	7	11	18	3	20	0	0.75	0.29
Bill Guerin	20	10	5	15	-11	28	0	0.75	0.50
Adam Oates	4	1	2	3	-1	0	0	0.75	0.25
Eric Lindros	4	1	2	3	-5	8	0	0.75	0.25
John LeClair	4	2	1	3	-5	4	0	0.75	0.50
Alexander Mogilny	19	3	11	14	-4	12	1	0.74	0.16
Jeff Norton	11	0	8	8	3	10	0	0.73	0.00
Vincent Damphousse	18	4	9	13	-4	20	0	0.72	0.22
Keith Tkachuk	31	10	12	22	-6	68	1	0.71	0.32
Jozef Stumpel	17	3	9	12	1	18	1	0.71	0.18
Henrik Sedin	10	3	4	7	1	0	1	0.70	0.30
Petr Sykora	13	5	4	9	4	8	2	0.69	0.38
Owen Nolan	22	8	7	15	-3	42	2	0.68	0.36
Boris Mironov	24	5	11	16	-9	43	1	0.67	0.21
Oleg Tverdovsky	12	0	8	8	-4	0	0	0.67	0.00
Anson Carter	6	3	1	4	1	4	1	0.67	0.50
Gino Odjick	6	3	1	4	2	6	2	0.67	0.50
Russ Courtnall	6	1	3	4	-4	2	0	0.67	0.17
Jesse Belanger	3	0	2	2	0	2	0	0.67	0.00
Ryan Smyth	38	13	12	25	-9	38	2	0.66	0.34
Al MacInnis	37	6	18	24	-4	40	0	0.65	0.16
Luc Robitaille	17	6	5	11	0	16	1	0.65	0.35
Ed Jovanovski	14	2	7	9	-7	19	0	0.64	0.14
Brian Bellows	8	3	2	5	-4	2	0	0.63	0.38
Pierre Turgeon	26	7	9	16	3	8	1	0.62	0.27
Jim Campbell	10	5	1	6	-2	14	0	0.60	0.50
Mattias Ohlund	10	2	4	6	-8	12	0	0.60	0.20
Benoit Hogue	5	1	2	3	2	2	0	0.60	0.20
Josef Beranek	5	2	1	3	-1	4	0	0.60	0.40
Ron Francis	5	1	2	3	-2	0	1	0.60	0.20
Pavol Demitra	32	6	13	19	-1	16	1	0.59	0.19
Adam Deadmarsh	17	4	6	10	0	6	2	0.59	0.24
Eric Daze	12	2	5	7	1	2	0	0.58	0.17
Scott Mellanby	18	6	4	10	-5	27	1	0.56	0.33
Rod Brind'Amour	9	4	1	5	-3	4	0	0.56	0.44
Scott Young	20	7	4	11	6	8	2	0.55	0.35
Gary Suter	24	3	10	13	-3	12	0	0.54	0.13
Andrei Kovalenko	13	4	3	7	1	8	0	0.54	0.31
Brian Rafalski	13	1	6	7	3	4	0	0.54	0.08
Chris Pronger	38	2	17	19	-3	94	0	0.50	0.05
Patrick Marleau	22	6	5	11	-4	10	2	0.50	0.27
Mathieu Schneider	20	0	10	10	-4	28	0	0.50	0.00
Bill Houlder	12	4	2	6	2	6	0	0.50	0.33
Craig Janney	12	1	5	6	-2	0	0	0.50	0.08
Jeff Shantz	12	1	5	6	2	10	0	0.50	0.08
Niklas Sundstrom	12	1	5	6	0	0	0	0.50	0.08
Alexander Korolyuk	10	1	4	5	-4	2	1	0.50	0.10
Brendan Morrison	10	1	4	5	-4	6	0	0.50	0.10
Esa Tikkanen	10	3	2	5	-8	6	0	0.50	0.30
Joe Juneau	10	1	4	5	-1	0	0	0.50	0.10
Matt Cooke	10	3	2	5	0	4	0	0.50	0.30
Steve Rucchin	8	0	4	4	0	10	0	0.50	0.00
Alex Zhamnov	6	2	1	3	0	8	0	0.50	0.33
Alexei Zhitnik	6	1	2	3	-4	18	0	0.50	0.17
Andrew Cassels	6	2	1	3	-4	0	0	0.50	0.33
Dave Manson	6	2	1	3	3	30	1	0.50	0.33
Ed Olczyk	6	1	2	3	0	6	0	0.50	0.17
Igor Korolev	6	0	3	3	-2	0	0	0.50	0.00
Jim Dowd	6	2	1	3	-3	4	0	0.50	0.33
Mike Comrie	6	1	2	3	0	0	1	0.50	0.17
Richard Smehlik	6	0	3	3	-4	2	0	0.50	0.00
Steve Duchesne	6	0	3	3	-7	4	0	0.50	0.00
Andrei Nikolishin	4	0	2	2	-1	2	0	0.50	0.00
Eric Desjardins	4	0	2	2	-1	2	0	0.50	0.00
Fredrik Olausson	4	0	2	2	-4	4	0	0.50	0.00
Marty McInnis	4	2	0	2	-1	2	0	0.50	0.50
Peter Bondra	4	1	1	2	-1	4	0	0.50	0.25
Rob Blake	4	0	2	2	1	4	0	0.50	0.00
Yuri Khmylev	4	1	1	2	2	2	1	0.50	0.25
Mike Hudson	2	0	1	1	1	4	0	0.50	0.00
Jyrki Lumme	11	1	4	5	-3	4	0	0.45	0.09
Igor Kravchuk	9	1	3	4	-2	4	1	0.44	0.11
Marty Reasoner	9	3	1	4	0	0	1	0.44	0.33
Mikael Renberg	9	1	3	4	-4	4	1	0.44	0.11
Travis Green	9	2	2	4	-4	6	0	0.44	0.22
Geoff Courtnall	25	5	6	11	-4	39	2	0.44	0.20
Cliff Ronning	16	1	6	7	-2	12	0	0.44	0.06
Scott Thornton	7	2	1	3	1	2	0	0.43	0.29
Dan McGillis	12	0	5	5	8	24	0	0.42	0.00
Dean McAmmond	12	1	4	5	0	12	0	0.42	0.08
Markus Naslund	12	2	3	5	-3	10	0	0.42	0.17
Glen Murray	17	4	3	7	-4	6	1	0.41	0.24
Marco Sturm	20	3	5	8	-5	4	1	0.40	0.15
Daniel Sedin	10	1	3	4	-1	0	0	0.40	0.10
Stu Barnes	10	4	0	4	1	2	0	0.40	0.40
German Titov	5	1	1	2	-2	0	0	0.40	0.20
Glen Wesley	5	0	2	2	-3	4	0	0.40	0.00
J.J. Daigneault	5	0	2	2	-5	8	0	0.40	0.00
Sami Kapanen	5	0	2	2	-3	0	0	0.40	0.00
Cory Stillman	13	1	4	5	2	8	1	0.38	0.08
Murray Craven	13	2	3	5	-8	2	0	0.38	0.15
Sergei Brylin	13	3	2	5	-1	6	0	0.38	0.23
Joe Murphy	24	4	5	9	-5	48	0	0.38	0.17
Scott Lachance	8	1	2	3	2	6	1	0.38	0.13
Trent Klatt	8	3	0	3	-6	6	0	0.38	0.38
Valeri Zelepukin	8	1	2	3	3	2	0	0.38	0.13
Jamal Mayers	19	3	4	7	0	10	0	0.37	0.16
Craig Johnson	11	2	2	4	3	4	1	0.36	0.18
Jochen Hecht	14	3	2	5	3	2	0	0.36	0.21
Jeff Friesen	17	2	4	6	-5	18	0	0.35	0.12
Roman Hamrlik	20	0	7	7	-7	18	0	0.35	0.00
Rem Murray	38	5	8	13	-6	16	0	0.34	0.13
Bryan Smolinski	24	3	5	8	-3	18	0	0.33	0.13
Alexander Khavanov	12	3	1	4	5	14	0	0.33	0.25
Bob Probert	12	2	2	4	-6	60	1	0.33	0.17
Gerald Diduck	6	0	2	2	-4	20	0	0.33	0.00
Todd Gill	6	2	0	2	-4	6	0	0.33	0.33
Wayne Primeau	6	1	1	2	-1	4	0	0.33	0.17
Sean Pronger	3	0	1	1	1	0	0	0.33	0.00
Janne Niinimaa	30	1	8	9	-4	22	1	0.30	0.03
Dan Cleary	10	1	2	3	-1	10	0	0.30	0.10
Pascal Rheaume	10	0	3	3	1	4	0	0.30	0.00
Todd Marchant	37	7	4	11	0	40	1	0.30	0.19
Mike Grier	34	6	4	10	3	31	2	0.29	0.18
Adam Creighton	7	1	1	2	-3	4	0	0.29	0.14
Glenn Anderson	7	0	2	2	0	2	0	0.29	0.00
Mikko Eloranta	7	1	1	2	-1	2	0	0.29	0.14
Turner Stevenson	7	1	1	2	1	6	1	0.29	0.14
Martin Gelinas	11	1	2	3	1	16	0	0.27	0.09
Trevor Letowski	11	1	2	3	-1	12	0	0.27	0.09
Jason Smith	15	0	4	4	-3	14	0	0.27	0.00
Tom Poti	15	0	4	4	-4	4	0	0.27	0.00
Ethan Moreau	19	1	4	5	4	17	0	0.26	0.05
Nelson Emerson	19	2	3	5	2	6	0	0.26	0.11
Mats Lindgren	24	1	5	6	-2	10	0	0.25	0.04
Eric Belanger	20	1	4	5	-2	6	1	0.25	0.05
Shane Doan	16	2	2	4	-4	20	0	0.25	0.13
Brad Stuart	12	0	3	3	-7	6	0	0.25	0.00
Denis Savard	12	1	2	3	-4	8	0	0.25	0.08
Mariusz Czerkawski	12	2	1	3	-2	10	0	0.25	0.17
Tony Hrkac	12	0	3	3	2	2	0	0.25	0.00
Jason Woolley	8	1	1	2	0	6	1	0.25	0.13
Bill Lindsay	4	0	1	1	-1	4	0	0.25	0.00
Calle Johansson	4	0	1	1	-3	2	0	0.25	0.00
Chris Simon	4	1	0	1	0	6	0	0.25	0.25
Christian Laflamme	4	0	1	1	-4	2	0	0.25	0.00
Dale Hunter	4	0	1	1	-1	2	0	0.25	0.00
Darren Van Impe	4	0	1	1	-4	4	0	0.25	0.00
Denis Pederson	4	0	1	1	-1	4	0	0.25	0.00
Harold Druken	4	0	1	1	-5	0	0	0.25	0.00
Jari Kurri	4	1	0	1	-2	2	0	0.25	0.25
Joe Sacco	4	1	0	1	-2	2	0	0.25	0.25
Johan Garpenlov	4	0	1	1	-1	2	0	0.25	0.00
Ken Baumgartner	4	0	1	1	1	0	0	0.25	0.00
Martin Straka	4	0	1	1	-5	0	0	0.25	0.00
Pavel Trnka	4	0	1	1	-3	2	0	0.25	0.00
Peter Zezel	4	1	0	1	0	0	0	0.25	0.25
Ray Sheppard	4	1	0	1	-4	0	0	0.25	0.25
Richard Park	4	0	1	1	1	0	0	0.25	0.00
Richard Zednik	4	1	0	1	-1	4	0	0.25	0.25
Rob Niedermayer	4	1	0	1	-4	2	0	0.25	0.25
Sergei Gonchar	4	0	1	1	-4	4	0	0.25	0.00
Steve Dubinsky	4	1	0	1	0	4	0	0.25	0.25
Tom Fitzgerald	4	1	0	1	-1	0	0	0.25	0.25
Warren Rychel	4	0	1	1	-1	6	0	0.25	0.00
Kelly Buchberger	47	7	4	11	-10	54	1	0.23	0.15
Bobby Holik	13	0	3	3	-6	10	0	0.23	0.00
Jay Pandolfo	13	0	3	3	2	0	0	0.23	0.00
John Madden	13	2	1	3	-1	2	1	0.23	0.15
Scott Gomez	13	1	2	3	1	4	0	0.23	0.08
Scott Niedermayer	13	1	2	3	2	10	0	0.23	0.08
Scott Stevens	13	1	2	3	0	8	1	0.23	0.08
James Black	9	1	1	2	0	4	0	0.22	0.11
Sean Hill	14	1	2	3	-4	18	0	0.21	0.07
Marcus Ragnarsson	24	1	4	5	-5	18	0	0.21	0.04
Georges Laraque	15	1	2	3	-1	16	0	0.20	0.07
Brent Sopel	10	0	2	2	-2	4	0	0.20	0.00
Aaron Ward	5	0	1	1	1	4	0	0.20	0.00
Jan Hlavac	5	0	1	1	-3	0	0	0.20	0.00
Jarkko Ruutu	5	0	1	1	-1	8	0	0.20	0.00
Josef Vasicek	5	1	0	1	0	4	0	0.20	0.20
Kris King	5	0	1	1	1	4	0	0.20	0.00
Mike Gartner	5	1	0	1	-2	18	0	0.20	0.20
Mike Sullivan	5	0	1	1	-1	0	0	0.20	0.00
Radoslav Suchy	5	0	1	1	3	0	0	0.20	0.00
Ulf Dahlen	5	0	1	1	0	0	0	0.20	0.00
Bob Corkum	16	2	1	3	-5	4	0	0.19	0.13
Drake Berehowsky	16	1	2	3	3	26	1	0.19	0.06
Brad Chartrand	11	1	1	2	-1	8	1	0.18	0.09
Chris Chelios	11	0	2	2	-1	14	0	0.18	0.00
Darrin Shannon	11	1	1	2	-1	10	0	0.18	0.09
Scott Fraser	11	1	1	2	0	0	0	0.18	0.09
Sergei Krivokrasov	11	2	0	2	-6	6	2	0.18	0.18
Mike Eastwood	29	2	3	5	-3	6	1	0.17	0.07
Ian Laperriere	24	1	3	4	-4	23	0	0.17	0.04
Eric Weinrich	12	0	2	2	-6	12	0	0.17	0.00
Luke Richardson	12	0	2	2	-4	14	0	0.17	0.00
Norm Maciver	12	1	1	2	3	4	0	0.17	0.08
Teppo Numminen	12	1	1	2	-2	2	0	0.17	0.08
Tony Granato	12	1	1	2	-3	6	0	0.17	0.08
Al Iafrate	6	1	0	1	-4	10	0	0.17	0.17
Andrei Zyuzin	6	1	0	1	-2	14	1	0.17	0.17
Artem Chubarov	6	0	1	1	0	0	0	0.17	0.00
Brian Holzinger	6	0	1	1	1	9	0	0.17	0.00
Claude Lemieux	6	0	1	1	2	4	0	0.17	0.00
Craig Muni	6	0	1	1	-2	2	0	0.17	0.00
Curtis Brown	6	0	1	1	-2	2	0	0.17	0.00
Dixon Ward	6	1	0	1	-2	8	1	0.17	0.17
Frantisek Kucera	6	0	1	1	-3	0	0	0.17	0.00
Geoff Sanderson	6	1	0	1	1	4	0	0.17	0.17
Jay Wells	6	0	1	1	1	0	0	0.17	0.00
Joe Hulbig	6	0	1	1	2	2	0	0.17	0.00
Kevin Miller	6	0	1	1	0	0	0	0.17	0.00
Michael Peca	6	1	0	1	-3	2	0	0.17	0.17
Michal Handzus	6	0	1	1	-3	4	0	0.17	0.00
Miroslav Satan	6	0	1	1	-3	2	0	0.17	0.00
Todd Warriner	6	1	0	1	0	2	0	0.17	0.17
Vladimir Malakhov	6	0	1	1	1	4	0	0.17	0.00
Jaroslav Modry	19	1	2	3	0	6	1	0.16	0.05
Ken Daneyko	13	1	1	2	1	17	0	0.15	0.08
Stephen Leach	13	1	1	2	0	41	0	0.15	0.08
Marc Bergevin	14	1	1	2	1	10	0	0.14	0.07
Adam Graves	7	1	0	1	-1	4	0	0.14	0.14
Alex Selivanov	7	0	1	1	0	10	0	0.14	0.00
Brian Noonan	7	1	0	1	-5	4	0	0.14	0.14
Jason Marshall	7	1	0	1	0	12	0	0.14	0.14
Pat Falloon	7	0	1	1	-1	6	0	0.14	0.00
Randy McKay	7	0	1	1	0	2	0	0.14	0.00
Ted Drury	7	1	0	1	-6	0	0	0.14	0.14
Keith Carney	23	1	2	3	-10	25	0	0.13	0.04
Murray Baron	23	0	3	3	-7	26	0	0.13	0.00
Mike Rathje	24	1	2	3	-10	18	0	0.13	0.04
Brent Sutter	8	0	1	1	-5	8	0	0.13	0.00
Scott Hannan	8	0	1	1	-2	6	0	0.13	0.00
Philippe Boucher	18	0	2	2	3	4	0	0.11	0.00
Enrico Ciccone	9	1	0	1	-2	46	0	0.11	0.11
Sean O'Donnell	9	1	0	1	-1	29	0	0.11	0.11
Jeff Finley	19	0	2	2	-10	8	0	0.11	0.00
Bret Hedican	11	0	1	1	-1	14	0	0.09	0.00
Chad Kilger	11	1	0	1	-2	4	1	0.09	0.09
Mattias Norstrom	24	0	2	2	-3	28	0	0.08	0.00
Blair Atcheynum	12	0	1	1	-2	2	0	0.08	0.00
Lubomir Visnovsky	12	0	1	1	0	0	0	0.08	0.00
Ricard Persson	12	0	1	1	-2	27	0	0.08	0.00
Scott Thomas	12	1	0	1	-1	4	0	0.08	0.08
Terry Yake	12	1	0	1	-4	14	0	0.08	0.08
Todd Harvey	12	1	0	1	-1	8	0	0.08	0.08
Tony Twist	12	1	0	1	0	12	0	0.08	0.08
Dallas Drake	25	0	2	2	-8	22	0	0.08	0.00
Bryan Marchment	26	1	1	2	-5	32	0	0.08	0.04
Bryce Salvador	13	1	0	1	-6	8	0	0.08	0.08
Colin White	13	0	1	1	-2	18	0	0.08	0.00
Sergei Nemchinov	13	0	1	1	-5	2	0	0.08	0.00
Stephane Matteau	29	1	1	2	-5	14	0	0.07	0.03
Scott Pellerin	15	0	1	1	-3	16	0	0.07	0.00
Chris McAlpine	16	0	1	1	-1	10	0	0.06	0.00
Dave Lowry	16	0	1	1	-5	22	0	0.06	0.00
Jere Karalahti	17	0	1	1	-10	20	0	0.06	0.00
Ron Sutter	17	1	0	1	-4	26	0	0.06	0.06
Craig Conroy	18	0	1	1	-9	16	0	0.06	0.00
Greg de Vries	19	0	1	1	0	29	0	0.05	0.00
Aaron Miller	20	0	1	1	5	6	0	0.05	0.00
Bobby Dollas	15	0	0	0	0	18	0	0.00	0.00
Jim Cummins	15	0	0	0	-6	30	0	0.00	0.00
Steve Kelly	15	0	0	0	0	4	0	0.00	0.00
Drew Bannister	12	0	0	0	-4	30	0	0.00	0.00
Mike Stapleton	12	0	0	0	-1	23	0	0.00	0.00
Igor Ulanov	11	0	0	0	-7	10	0	0.00	0.00
Louie DeBrusk	9	0	0	0	0	4	0	0.00	0.00
Shjon Podein	9	0	0	0	-3	2	0	0.00	0.00
Steve Smith	9	0	0	0	-2	20	0	0.00	0.00
Craig MacTavish	8	0	0	0	1	6	0	0.00	0.00
Daniel Corso	8	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Frantisek Musil	8	0	0	0	0	8	0	0.00	0.00
Rhett Warrener	8	0	0	0	-5	6	0	0.00	0.00
Stu Grimson	8	0	0	0	0	34	0	0.00	0.00
Alexei Gusarov	7	0	0	0	2	4	0	0.00	0.00
Charlie Huddy	7	0	0	0	-2	2	0	0.00	0.00
Jim McKenzie	7	0	0	0	-1	8	0	0.00	0.00
Matt Bradley	7	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Michel Petit	7	0	0	0	-2	10	0	0.00	0.00
Ron Stern	7	0	0	0	-3	8	0	0.00	0.00
Adrian Aucoin	6	0	0	0	-5	2	0	0.00	0.00
Andreas Lilja	6	0	0	0	-1	6	0	0.00	0.00
Bob Rouse	6	0	0	0	-1	6	0	0.00	0.00
Bryan Helmer	6	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Cam Russell	6	0	0	0	1	4	0	0.00	0.00
Dana Murzyn	6	0	0	0	0	25	0	0.00	0.00
Darren Turcotte	6	0	0	0	-2	0	0	0.00	0.00
Erik Rasmussen	6	0	0	0	-2	2	0	0.00	0.00
James Patrick	6	0	0	0	2	4	0	0.00	0.00
Jay McKee	6	0	0	0	-1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Mike Sillinger	6	0	0	0	-5	2	0	0.00	0.00
Petr Klima	6	0	0	0	0	4	0	0.00	0.00
Scott Ferguson	6	0	0	0	2	0	0	0.00	0.00
Shawn Burr	6	0	0	0	-1	8	0	0.00	0.00
Vaclav Varada	6	0	0	0	-2	6	0	0.00	0.00
Bates Battaglia	5	0	0	0	-4	4	0	0.00	0.00
Bert Robertsson	5	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Brad Isbister	5	0	0	0	-1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Bryan Muir	5	0	0	0	-2	4	0	0.00	0.00
Dan Trebil	5	0	0	0	0	4	0	0.00	0.00
Erik Cole	5	0	0	0	-6	10	0	0.00	0.00
Greg Adams	5	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Harry York	5	0	0	0	-1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Jaroslav Svoboda	5	0	0	0	-1	8	0	0.00	0.00
Jeff Daniels	5	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Jim Sandlak	5	0	0	0	2	2	0	0.00	0.00
Kevyn Adams	5	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Leif Rohlin	5	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Lyle Odelein	5	0	0	0	-3	16	0	0.00	0.00
Marek Malik	5	0	0	0	-3	0	0	0.00	0.00
Mark Janssens	5	0	0	0	-4	8	0	0.00	0.00
Mika Alatalo	5	0	0	0	1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Mike Peluso	5	0	0	0	-1	25	0	0.00	0.00
Mike Ridley	5	0	0	0	-3	2	0	0.00	0.00
Mike Van Ryn	5	0	0	0	-2	0	0	0.00	0.00
Niclas Wallin	5	0	0	0	-1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Ray Ferraro	5	0	0	0	-3	0	0	0.00	0.00
Shawn Horcoff	5	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Stan Neckar	5	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Tommy Westlund	5	0	0	0	1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Tyson Nash	5	0	0	0	-4	8	0	0.00	0.00
Antti Aalto	4	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Bill Huard	4	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Brad Shaw	4	0	0	0	2	0	0	0.00	0.00
Brian Skrudland	4	0	0	0	0	4	0	0.00	0.00
Chris Therien	4	0	0	0	-2	0	0	0.00	0.00
Craig Berube	4	0	0	0	1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Dainius Zubrus	4	0	0	0	-4	0	0	0.00	0.00
Donald Brashear	4	0	0	0	-2	0	0	0.00	0.00
Garry Galley	4	0	0	0	-2	0	0	0.00	0.00
Gord Murphy	4	0	0	0	-5	0	0	0.00	0.00
Iain Fraser	4	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Jamie Pushor	4	0	0	0	-3	6	0	0.00	0.00
Jeff Nielsen	4	0	0	0	-6	2	0	0.00	0.00
Joe Reekie	4	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Joel Otto	4	0	0	0	-3	0	0	0.00	0.00
John Druce	4	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Kevin Haller	4	0	0	0	-1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Kjell Samuelsson	4	0	0	0	-3	2	0	0.00	0.00
Mark Tinordi	4	0	0	0	-4	6	0	0.00	0.00
Matt Cullen	4	0	0	0	-2	0	0	0.00	0.00
Mike Hough	4	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Paul Laus	4	0	0	0	-3	2	0	0.00	0.00
Phil Housley	4	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Robert Svehla	4	0	0	0	-1	6	0	0.00	0.00
Sean Brown	4	0	0	0	-1	33	0	0.00	0.00
Steve Heinze	4	0	0	0	-1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Terry Carkner	4	0	0	0	-1	4	0	0.00	0.00
Tomas Sandstrom	4	0	0	0	-2	4	0	0.00	0.00
Colin Forbes	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Dale Hawerchuk	3	0	0	0	-3	0	0	0.00	0.00
Dan Bylsma	3	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Domenic Pittis	3	0	0	0	-1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Donald Dufresne	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Jaroslav Bednar	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Jason Blake	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Josh Green	3	0	0	0	1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Karl Dykhuis	3	0	0	0	-3	2	0	0.00	0.00
Kelly Chase	3	0	0	0	-1	4	0	0.00	0.00
Ken Sutton	3	0	0	0	-2	9	0	0.00	0.00
Marty McSorley	3	0	0	0	1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Pat Kavanagh	3	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Peter Schaefer	3	0	0	0	-3	0	0	0.00	0.00
Randy Cunneyworth	3	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Ruslan Salei	3	0	0	0	-4	4	0	0.00	0.00
Sergei Zholtok	3	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Sergio Momesso	3	0	0	0	0	6	0	0.00	0.00
Todd Krygier	3	0	0	0	-3	2	0	0.00	0.00
Aki Berg	2	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Bryan Allen	2	0	0	0	1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Daniel Lacroix	2	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Jamie Rivers	2	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Jason Strudwick	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Jody Hull	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Kelly Miller	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Ken Klee	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Kevin Lowe	2	0	0	0	-1	4	0	0.00	0.00
Lubos Bartecko	2	0	0	0	-2	2	0	0.00	0.00
Mike Eagles	2	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Mike Leclerc	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Paul Coffey	2	0	0	0	-5	6	0	0.00	0.00
Robert Petrovicky	2	0	0	0	1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Rudy Poeschek	2	0	0	0	-2	6	0	0.00	0.00
Barret Jackman	1	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Basil McRae	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Boyd Devereaux	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Craig Mills	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Dan Kordic	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Dan LaCouture	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Daniel Briere	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Darryl Shannon	1	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Dave Karpa	1	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Evgeny Namestnikov	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Jeff Toms	1	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Joe Kocur	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Johan Davidsson	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Juha Ylonen	1	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Kevin Brown	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Kevin Todd	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Marko Tuomainen	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Michal Grosek	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Michal Sykora	1	0	0	0	-2	0	0	0.00	0.00
Paul Kruse	1	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Petr Svoboda	1	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Radek Dvorak	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Rob Ray	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Sergei Varlamov	1	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Todd Reirden	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Vladimir Vorobiev	1	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1996-2002 Playoff Statistics
COL/DAL/DET Players vs. COL/DAL/DET

Player	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	GWG	PTS/GP	G/GP
Paul Coffey	4	3	2	5	0	2	0	1.25	0.75
Peter Forsberg	43	16	24	40	9	63	4	0.93	0.37
Brett Hull	21	11	8	19	1	0	2	0.90	0.52
Mike Modano	20	5	13	18	-2	24	0	0.90	0.25
Mike Ricci	12	4	6	10	-2	10	1	0.83	0.33
Sergei Fedorov	36	8	21	29	-2	16	3	0.81	0.22
Joe Nieuwendyk	14	5	6	11	1	14	3	0.79	0.36
Joe Sakic	44	14	19	33	-7	24	2	0.75	0.32
Adam Deadmarsh	37	9	18	27	4	55	0	0.73	0.24
Valeri Kamensky	22	4	11	15	4	14	1	0.68	0.18
Nicklas Lidstrom	36	7	17	24	-3	12	0	0.67	0.19
Scott Young	12	3	5	8	1	2	0	0.67	0.25
Steve Yzerman	35	7	16	23	-4	8	2	0.66	0.20
Chris Drury	32	11	10	21	10	4	8	0.66	0.34
Vyacheslav Kozlov	28	12	6	18	-4	22	3	0.64	0.43
Ray Bourque	8	1	4	5	1	4	0	0.63	0.13
Claude Lemieux	24	6	8	14	4	65	1	0.58	0.25
Luc Robitaille	7	2	2	4	3	6	0	0.57	0.29
Rob Blake	7	1	3	4	-4	6	0	0.57	0.14
Steve Reinprecht	7	2	2	4	4	2	0	0.57	0.29
Tomas Holmstrom	24	7	6	13	9	26	1	0.54	0.29
Larry Murphy	23	2	10	12	2	12	1	0.52	0.09
Igor Larionov	30	7	8	15	-1	8	2	0.50	0.23
Jere Lehtinen	20	5	5	10	-2	0	0	0.50	0.25
Sergei Zubov	20	3	7	10	7	6	0	0.50	0.15
Jamie Langenbrunner	18	6	3	9	-2	8	2	0.50	0.33
Theoren Fleury	12	2	4	6	-4	14	0	0.50	0.17
Dino Ciccarelli	6	2	1	3	-4	12	0	0.50	0.33
Uwe Krupp	6	1	2	3	-3	4	1	0.50	0.17
Greg Johnson	4	1	1	2	-1	4	0	0.50	0.25
Sandis Ozolinsh	37	6	12	18	-5	36	0	0.49	0.16
Brendan Shanahan	30	5	8	13	-3	45	1	0.43	0.17
Boyd Devereaux	7	1	2	3	2	0	0	0.43	0.14
Fredrik Olausson	7	2	1	3	4	2	1	0.43	0.29
Pavel Datsyuk	7	1	2	3	3	0	0	0.43	0.14
Dave Reid	19	3	5	8	4	2	0	0.42	0.16
Milan Hejduk	29	8	4	12	-6	10	2	0.41	0.28
Darryl Sydor	20	1	7	8	4	6	0	0.40	0.05
Ulf Samuelsson	5	0	2	2	-1	6	0	0.40	0.00
Martin Lapointe	28	3	8	11	-4	67	0	0.39	0.11
Guy Carbonneau	20	2	5	7	2	6	0	0.35	0.10
Doug Brown	24	2	6	8	-1	2	0	0.33	0.08
Richard Matvichuk	19	2	4	6	-1	10	0	0.32	0.11
Dale Hunter	13	1	3	4	1	16	0	0.31	0.08
Darren McCarty	36	7	4	11	-2	51	1	0.31	0.19
Darius Kasparaitis	7	0	2	2	6	12	0	0.29	0.00
Jamie Macoun	7	1	1	2	0	4	1	0.29	0.14
Scott Thornton	7	0	2	2	-1	12	0	0.29	0.00
Mike Keane	36	5	5	10	1	24	2	0.28	0.14
Pat Verbeek	18	2	3	5	-4	16	0	0.28	0.11
Aaron Miller	31	2	6	8	6	12	0	0.26	0.06
Steve Duchesne	12	0	3	3	2	12	0	0.25	0.00
Brian Willsie	4	0	1	1	0	2	0	0.25	0.00
Roman Lyashenko	4	1	0	1	0	0	1	0.25	0.25
Kirk Maltby	31	5	2	7	1	38	1	0.23	0.16
Chris Chelios	18	0	4	4	-11	32	0	0.22	0.00
Martin Skoula	19	0	4	4	-7	4	0	0.21	0.00
Adam Foote	43	1	8	9	5	87	0	0.21	0.02
Derian Hatcher	20	0	4	4	-3	31	0	0.20	0.00
Greg Adams	5	1	0	1	2	0	1	0.20	0.20
Keith Primeau	5	0	1	1	-1	4	0	0.20	0.00
Stephane Yelle	31	3	3	6	2	12	0	0.19	0.10
Alexei Gusarov	16	0	3	3	8	12	0	0.19	0.00
Warren Rychel	11	1	1	2	2	0	0	0.18	0.09
Alex Tanguay	17	2	1	3	-6	2	0	0.18	0.12
Dave Andreychuk	12	1	1	2	-2	16	0	0.17	0.08
Vladimir Konstantinov	12	1	1	2	1	19	0	0.17	0.08
Bob Bassen	6	1	0	1	-2	2	0	0.17	0.17
Curtis Leschyshyn	6	0	1	1	0	2	0	0.17	0.00
Eric Lacroix	6	0	1	1	0	17	0	0.17	0.00
Mike Ramsey	6	0	1	1	-2	2	0	0.17	0.00
Tim Taylor	6	0	1	1	0	4	0	0.17	0.00
Wendel Clark	6	1	0	1	-3	6	0	0.17	0.17
Greg de Vries	25	1	3	4	-1	18	0	0.16	0.04
Shjon Podein	25	3	1	4	-1	14	1	0.16	0.12
Craig Ludwig	13	0	2	2	3	12	0	0.15	0.00
Todd Gill	7	0	1	1	-1	2	0	0.14	0.00
Joe Kocur	8	0	1	1	0	20	0	0.13	0.00
Rene Corbet	8	0	1	1	-2	17	0	0.13	0.00
Jeff Odgers	9	1	0	1	0	6	1	0.11	0.11
Jon Klemm	37	2	2	4	3	12	0	0.11	0.05
Blake Sloan	10	0	1	1	-1	4	0	0.10	0.00
Brent Gilchrist	11	1	0	1	-1	2	0	0.09	0.09
Bob Rouse	12	0	1	1	4	20	0	0.08	0.00
Serge Aubin	12	0	1	1	1	6	0	0.08	0.00
Brian Skrudland	13	0	1	1	1	10	0	0.08	0.00
Grant Marshall	17	0	1	1	-1	6	0	0.06	0.00
Kris Draper	35	0	2	2	-3	22	0	0.06	0.00
Viacheslav Fetisov	18	0	1	1	-2	28	0	0.06	0.00
Sylvain Lefebvre	25	0	1	1	2	33	0	0.04	0.00
Eric Messier	26	0	1	1	-2	8	0	0.04	0.00
Mathieu Dandenault	15	0	0	0	1	6	0	0.00	0.00
Aaron Ward	13	0	0	0	-1	17	0	0.00	0.00
Anders Eriksson	9	0	0	0	2	4	0	0.00	0.00
Benoit Hogue	8	0	0	0	-2	10	0	0.00	0.00
Shawn Chambers	8	0	0	0	-5	2	0	0.00	0.00
Brad Larsen	7	0	0	0	-4	4	0	0.00	0.00
Bryan Muir	7	0	0	0	-2	2	0	0.00	0.00
Dave Manson	7	0	0	0	-1	6	0	0.00	0.00
Jiri Fischer	7	0	0	0	1	10	0	0.00	0.00
Kirk Muller	7	0	0	0	-3	8	0	0.00	0.00
Riku Hahl	7	0	0	0	-3	0	0	0.00	0.00
Sylvain Cote	7	0	0	0	-2	4	0	0.00	0.00
Marc Bergevin	6	0	0	0	2	6	0	0.00	0.00
Tomas Sandstrom	6	0	0	0	-2	4	0	0.00	0.00
Brenden Morrow	5	0	0	0	2	10	0	0.00	0.00
Dan Hinote	5	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Juha Lind	5	0	0	0	1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Dave Hannan	4	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Shean Donovan	4	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Aaron Gavey	3	0	0	0	0	4	0	0.00	0.00
Brent Severyn	3	0	0	0	1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Craig Muni	3	0	0	0	-1	4	0	0.00	0.00
Jason Williams	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Radim Vrbata	3	0	0	0	-2	0	0	0.00	0.00
Yves Sarault	3	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Bob Errey	2	0	0	0	-3	2	0	0.00	0.00
Brad Lukowich	2	0	0	0	1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Chris Simon	2	0	0	0	-1	2	0	0.00	0.00
Dan Keczmer	2	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Jon Sim	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Stacy Roest	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Troy Murray	2	0	0	0	0	2	0	0.00	0.00
Jamie Wright	1	0	0	0	1	0	0	0.00	0.00
Pascal Trepanier	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00
Stu Grimson	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.00	0.00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[quoipourquoi]

So if anyone was wondering why Brett Hull was on my shortlist, he has a cumulative 17 goal and 36 points in 40 playoff games against Colorado, Dallas, and Detroit from 1996-2002, despite not always being on one of those powerhouses.

 

[cupcrazyman]

Jagr's Mullet For The Win !

 

[MadLuke]

despite not always being on one of those powerhouses.

Maybe I am not placing the exact year's correctly, but St-Louis was the 4th biggest west power house of that era too right (with a good little gap to number 5 candidate)?

They had some of the biggest salary of the leagues and results close to that, 98-99 St-Louis payroll was a little bit above the Avalanche.

During the time Hull was with them, in the West

Detroit: 328 pts
Avalanche: 306
Stars: 279
Blues: 261
Hawks: 248
Oilers: 229
Ducks: 228
Canucks: 220

And for the time he was a Stars:
Stars: 322
Wings: 312
Avalanche: 312

Then in 2002 when he was a Wings:
Wings: 116 pts
Avalanche: 99

I feel an argument could be made that during that time frame he played on the when summed the best teams than any players (and/or he helped them to be.....).

 

[93LEAFS]

I'll go with Hasek. 2 Harts, carried a team with no business getting past the 1st round to the Cup finals, 5 Vezina's, won a cup with Detroit, and carried the Czech's to a Gold Medal in a best on best tournament. Jagr is also clearly in the discussion, but as Hasek tailed off Jagr had the two worst years of his prime in Washington.

Goalies are weird in the sense that to be worth a huge cap-hit in the modern game they need to be very consistent and significantly more dominant than an average starter, so if you can be that, you will be arguably the most impactful player in the league. Hasek was that, and would be today. No player was more intimidating in that they could easily steal you a game or series.

 

[quoipourquoi]

During the time Hull was with them, in the West

Detroit: 328 pts
Avalanche: 306
Stars: 279
Blues: 261

The Stars’ 66-point season in 1996 weighs them down in a strict look at 1996-1998, but that wouldn’t be reflected in the above tables since that version of the Stars didn’t make the playoffs anyway.

The average Stars playoff team from 1996-2002 had 107 points and 181 GA.

The average Avalanche playoff team from 1996-2002 had 102 points and 202 GA.

The average Red Wings playoff team from 1996-2002 had 108 points and 196 GA.

Hull’s Blues from 1996-1998 averaged 87 points and 230 GA, so they wouldn’t really be in the same class of teams that were almost asterisk worthy for what they did to opposing players’ reputations.

 

[MadLuke]

I feel like you are making magic trick here, Hulls was on those Stars/Wings team most of the time 4 out of 7 season and when he was on the Blues only during that time we should look at what the 3 other team did.

The blues were
32-34-16 the Gretzky year (but got Gretzky near the end) vs 26-42 for Dallas
Then were 36-35-11 with 236 goals vs 48-26 for Dallas
Then were 45-29-8 with 256 goals (first in the league in goal) vs 49-22 for Dallas

Hull was on a powerhouse 5 of those 7 season and 1 of the other season was playing with Gretzky

There only one season that Hull was on a team significantly worst than the Dallas Stars during that complete 7 season window.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Here is a thread that covers best player year by year

Best Player In the World

 

[quoipourquoi]

I feel like you are making magic trick here, Hulls was on those Stars/Wings team most of the time 4 out of 7 season

Yes... and in those 21 games when he was on them, he has the third-best points-per-game vs. COL/DAL/DET after Paul Coffey (4 games) and Peter Forsberg (43 games).

His numbers from his 19 games with non-COL/DAL/DET teams are also very good. Third-best points-per-game among players with more than one series.

I really don’t know why you’re fixated on the 1996 Dallas Stars who don’t factor into the table whatsoever. Perhaps you don’t understand the table.

 

[MadLuke]

I really don’t know why you’re fixated on the 1996 Dallas Stars who don’t factor into the table whatsoever. Perhaps you don’t understand the table.

I must admit I misread (I thought it had some most game not on those powerful team implication that was not there at all), but I still have a little bit of bemol (has offensive took a nosedive after 97 if I remember correctly, giving a good advantage to Hull versus those you would play those teams after 97)

Brett Hull play against Detroit those 3 time
in 95-96: 7 points in 7 games against Detroit, 4 of is 7 points had Wayne Gretzky on the scoresheet, a player that do not show up for the regular season offensive prowess of the Blues and put a bit of an * to what expect from them in the playoff if we base it on their regular season record.
in 96-97: 9 points in 6 games against Detroit, the Blues that year was the best offensive team in the league and a team of a similar calibers of the others 3.
in 97-98: 1 points in 6 games against Detroit, the year that do match the I am not playing on a great offensive against a powerful defensive team scenario very well for sure

 

[quoipourquoi]

I must admit I misread (I thought it had some most game not on those powerful team implication that was not there at all), but I still have a little bit of bemol (has offensive took a nosedive after 97 if I remember correctly, giving a good advantage to Hull versus those you would play those teams after 97)

On the flip side, that his numbers are limited to 1999-2002 on the second table (which is COL/DAL/DET players against each other) should hurt Hull, and he’s probably got the second-best numbers on that table at 17 points in 19 playoff games.

Either way, it wouldn’t really make sense to include St. Louis. Colorado (6), Detroit (4), and Dallas (3) took 13 of the 14 Western Conference Finals selections from 1996-2002. Those were the teams that had a depressing effect on Western Conference players’ playoff reputations for a big chunk of this range we’re looking at in this thread - not St. Louis.

 

[Killer Orca]

This guy and that mullet alone should be in the HOF.

 

[Big Phil]

Hard to see it as anyone else but Jagr. Others worth mentioning:

Sakic, Forsberg, Lidstrom, Brodeur. But in reality when you have 5 (if we count the 1995 season) scoring titles in that span then how can that be bested?

 

[MadLuke]

Hasek versus Jagr is an interesting comparison to try to make.

If we go from 1/1/1995 to 1/1/2006

Jagr had 1,051 pts in 755 games a massive 1.39 pts a game.

Hasek had a league best .926 save percentage on 14,846 shots with 13,743 saves, a goal every 13.5 shots

During that time save percentage for "serious" playing over 200 games goaltender was around .9076 (not that easy to find or clear, has many goal in the league are without a goaltender in net), a goal every 10.8 shots

It is fair to say Hasek prevented around 275 goals above replacement ? An impact of about .54 goal a game.

With time on ice starting in 97-98 it is not easy to find during that time frame top 6 forward, using a all forward with at least 15 powerplay goals during that era was a replacement level line those 256 forward had in average a .65 ppg, did Jagr created around 558 goals or .74 goal a game impact ?

Sadly we cannot look on is impact on the Caps offense or the pens production when Jagr missed games that much either (he didn't miss much time) to have some idea.

In 98-99 with a 120 pts jagr: 242 GF
In 2000-2001 the penguins: 281 GF, 3.42
in 2001-2002: 198 (Mario, Kovalev and Lang playing less game Jagr-Straka missing)

But that an impressive drop and make that .74 goal a game not sound too crazy even if maybe a bit on the high side.

But in reality when you have 5 (if we count the 1995 season) scoring titles in that span then how can that be bested?

By a very dominating goaltender or D.

 

[Maag80]

Pronger is a good pick and I thought about adding him too, but I hesitated given that I see his reign of dominance being from around '99 onward

Was Pronger so extremely dominant? I do not remember him as Canada's best defender for several years, however Lidstrom was enormously dominant, but still a bit anonymous and generally played in a very good Detroit.
But I feel that the years Pronger was so good, and gets so much love on this forum, the competition was still quite high and I do not remember him as the best defender of all in the early 2000s.