Who Was Considered The Best From 1995-2005?

[Deas]

Anybody who has Forsberg in their top 3 has to have Sakic as well. Sakic was at the very least as good.

Career achievement wise no doubt. Concerning prime level of play I think Forsberg's better.

 

[El Cohiba]

Jagr
Hasek
Pronger

In that order

Pronger is a good pick and I thought about adding him too, but I hesitated given that I see his reign of dominance being from around '99 onward

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Pronger is a good pick and I thought about adding him too, but I hesitated given that I see his reign of dominance being from around '99 onward

Lidstrom has to be considered over Pronger.

 

[Sweetpotato]

Lidstrom has to be considered over Pronger.

I put Pronger over Lidstrom because his peak during that time was higher.

 

[Michael Farkas]

If you mean for the one season, sure...Pronger has, what, 3x top-3 in Norris in that whole span...?

I don't mean to slander Prong's 2000 season...but I always wondered how much mileage he got out of Jagr missing 20 games...maybe something out there proves this definitively wrong, but I think if Jagr plays even 72 games that year, Pronger finishes 3rd for the Hart behind Bure...I don't know why, but I just get that sense that things would have been "normal" (which is to not give the d-man a lot of love)...I think the search for another player to vote for inflated Pronger's stature over the obvious MVP of the league...

He clearly wins (deservingly so) the Norris that year...but man, Jagr getting hurt probably bumped him up a couple spots on our best d-men list even...I think I might have some buyer's remorse voting him (I assume) over Scott Stevens and Tim Horton...

 

[Buffalowing1988]

Was Mario really any better than Jagr in 1995-96?

A great story, unreal production (161 points in 70 games). But more goals and assists on the power play than at even strength. Only a +10.

Jagr put up 149 points and was a +31. Both playing much of that season together with Francis, Mario probably didn't have to do much heavy work.

That's an interesting question and, honestly, I feel like it deserves a separate thread. I worry sometimes that people will fail to recognize how great Mario was once he turned 30 (when he could play, of course). I initially responded wanting to tell you that he absolutely was better than Jagr. But idk now...you raise good points and Jagr was an absolute workhorse back then. I feel like it's almost splitting hairs. We're going to look back on Jagr even more favorable in 10 years than we do today. He was something else.

 

[Buffalowing1988]

If you mean for the one season, sure...Pronger has, what, 3x top-3 in Norris in that whole span...?

I don't mean to slander Prong's 2000 season...but I always wondered how much mileage he got out of Jagr missing 20 games...maybe something out there proves this definitively wrong, but I think if Jagr plays even 72 games that year, Pronger finishes 3rd for the Hart behind Bure...I don't know why, but I just get that sense that things would have been "normal" (which is to not give the d-man a lot of love)...I think the search for another player to vote for inflated Pronger's stature over the obvious MVP of the league...

He clearly wins (deservingly so) the Norris that year...but man, Jagr getting hurt probably bumped him up a couple spots on our best d-men list even...I think I might have some buyer's remorse voting him (I assume) over Scott Stevens and Tim Horton...

I swear that there was some discourse at the time that MacInnis was equally valuable even then. Obviously, that's not the case, but I don't remember Pronger being a convincing winner. I still think 30+ minutes a night is a sight to behold, though. If I have any objection, it's that Pronger didn't come near a chance at the 06, 07, or 10 Hart Trophy when I could honestly make a top-5 argument for him in any of those seasons. I guess that was payback from the voters...idk.

 

[Nathaniel]

Was Mario really any better than Jagr in 1995-96?

A great story, unreal production (161 points in 70 games). But more goals and assists on the power play than at even strength. Only a +10.

Jagr put up 149 points and was a +31. Both playing much of that season together with Francis, Mario probably didn't have to do much heavy work.

Lemieux was on pace for 40 more points in 82 games. 12 more points in 12 less gp is not even close to being on the same level

 

[feffan]

Many posters overall seem to be answering a different question than what´s being asked. quoipourquois posts really nailed it down.

Forsberg, Jagr and Hasek held the highest regard in the leauge. Lidstrom started coming around, put probably should have been in the ranknings a little earlier. The * was always about if Lemieux would still had played. My memory tricked me into that Lindros was always higher on these lists until the millenia. The big 3 skaters in the mid to late 90´s in my memory was Lindros, Forsberg and Jagr. Percieved by how great they wore when playing, not what achieved by health and play (so to say...). I would even go so far to say that a 1 on 1 trade it could have been the Jagr side that would have had to add a late pick to get Forsberg/Lindros even during some of Jagrs Art Ross years.

Since for example Crosby is so much highly regarded in here than Ovechkin/Malkin overall it will be exciting to see what this will do with the rankings in here. Including the argument that he was the best when playing, but not always who achieved the most. For example Sakic over Forsberg, because except a few years during the millenium shift (where his seasons has as impact on his legacy as Fedorovs Hart season had on his overall legacy...) people at the time most often ranked Forsberg as the the 1A (Crosby) and Sakic as the 1B (Malkin). Even during Sakics dominant Conn Smyth perfomance some rumbled that Forsberg played the more complete game. But I personally wouldn´t challenge Sakics Conn...

To add some things I think have changed since then, but are highlighted by this:
Kariya/Selänne rankings. Kariya was almost always seen as the superior player during the 90´s.
Prongers dominat season gets him the Fedorov/Sakic treatment, that people confuse it for how he played all the time.
Brodeur wasn´t as highly regarded in the 90´s and first years of the millenia as sometimes is played upon, regarding especially against Hasek and also Roy.

 

[Video Nasty]

Was Mario really any better than Jagr in 1995-96?

A great story, unreal production (161 points in 70 games). But more goals and assists on the power play than at even strength. Only a +10.

Jagr put up 149 points and was a +31. Both playing much of that season together with Francis, Mario probably didn't have to do much heavy work.

Besides the surface level stats being enormously in Lemieux's favor (more everything in less games), it's staggering to me that Lemieux had 45 goals and 57 assists for 102 points in his first 41 games (48 team games).

Jagr had 78 points in his first 41 games and 90 points in his first 48 games (48 team games). Lemieux had 110 in his first 48. We're talking about about consistent 12-24 point bulge between the players throughout the season.

Lemieux did plenty of heavy lifting. He scored 8 shorthanded goals that season and none of them were assisted by Jagr, which implies that they typically didn't kill penalties together.

He assisted on Jagr's lone shorthanded goal. It's unclear to me how much Jagr was on the PK that season. Maybe a Pens fan can chime in because it would also explain some of the discrepancy in the mostly meaningless plus/minus.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Me.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Besides the surface level stats being enormously in Lemieux's favor (more everything in less games), it's staggering to me that Lemieux had 45 goals and 57 assists for 102 points in his first 41 games (48 team games).

Jagr had 78 points in his first 41 games and 90 points in his first 48 games (48 team games). Lemieux had 110 in his first 48. We're talking about about consistent 12-24 point bulge between the players throughout the season.

Lemieux did plenty of heavy lifting. He scored 8 shorthanded goals that season and none of them were assisted by Jagr, which implies that they typically didn't kill penalties together.

He assisted on Jagr's lone shorthanded goal. It's unclear to me how much Jagr was on the PK that season. Maybe a Pens fan can chime in because it would also explain some of the discrepancy in the mostly meaningless plus/minus.

i think the argument in jagr's favour is usually that he scored more at ES, including averaging 10 more ES points/82 games.

i don't really have an opinion on this one though.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Besides the surface level stats being enormously in Lemieux's favor (more everything in less games), it's staggering to me that Lemieux had 45 goals and 57 assists for 102 points in his first 41 games (48 team games).

He assisted on Jagr's lone shorthanded goal. It's unclear to me how much Jagr was on the PK that season. Maybe a Pens fan can chime in because it would also explain some of the discrepancy in the mostly meaningless plus/minus.

One reason could be that Jagr outscored Mario 95-73 at even strength.

And plus/minus is most certainly not meaningless when comparing players on the same team.

 

[MadLuke]

One reason could be that Jagr outscored Mario 95-73 at even strength.

And plus/minus is most certainly not meaningless when comparing players on the same team.

There an argument to be made,

Some tidbits:
The pens were just a .500 team with Lemieux on the sideline (but from what I remember many of those missed game where in a 2 games in 2 days scenarios and 12 is not a big sample size)
If Lemieux played at even strength with a prime Ron Francis type of player on is line instead of Jagr, maybe the production and +/- difference would look different, that said I suspect prime Jagr could have been quite the possession monster.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He assisted on Jagr's lone shorthanded goal. It's unclear to me how much Jagr was on the PK that season. Maybe a Pens fan can chime in because it would also explain some of the discrepancy in the mostly meaningless plus/minus.

i didn't follow that team closely, but if i'm reading you correctly, you are assuming mario and jagr played on the same line right?

they didn't. they only factored in on twelve of each other's ES points (out of totals of 70+). jagr played mostly with francis and nedved, mario with a lot of sandstrom and markus naslund before he was traded and kevin miller after.

to answer your question about PK usage, from the numbers i see on hockey-reference, jagr was on the ice for 18 PP goals against, mario for 28.

they were both on the ice for ~85 non-PP goals against. assuming that they both were on the ice for the PP together, so any SH goals against would be shared by them, the allowed basically the same ES goals against. only jagr played more games and scored at a higher rate at ES so he had a higher net statistical impact at ES than mario did.

the caveat would be that jagr might have been able to have a historically productive ES scoring year because he had mario on the other line and mario might have drawn the other team's toughest defensive assignments most nights. but a pittsburgh fan would have to confirm that because focusing your best checkers on mario vs jagr/francis might actually be a toss up for a lot of coaches.

 

[GuineaPig]

I don't mean to slander Prong's 2000 season...but I always wondered how much mileage he got out of Jagr missing 20 games...maybe something out there proves this definitively wrong, but I think if Jagr plays even 72 games that year, Pronger finishes 3rd for the Hart behind Bure...I don't know why, but I just get that sense that things would have been "normal" (which is to not give the d-man a lot of love)...I think the search for another player to vote for inflated Pronger's stature over the obvious MVP of the league...]

D-men always suffer for Hart votes. It's just the way it is. I think that psychologically voters have trouble committing to voting dmen for the Hart given that they have their own trophy.

As it was with Jagr only playing 63 games, Pronger edged him by a single point. If Jagr plays ten more games you can absolutely assume a bunch more voters switch their 1st place choice to Jagr and Pronger drops to third.

 

[Video Nasty]

i didn't follow that team closely, but if i'm reading you correctly, you are assuming mario and jagr played on the same line right?

No, I'm specifically questioning the PK roles of the team that year.

You dug up some good numbers, but they still don't solve the question. It stands to reason that if Mario is scoring significantly more short handed goals (and factoring in on 9 of the team's 18 SHG despite not playing 12 of the games), he's probably spending more time on the PK.

Overall, the gap in EVP is a little overblown if you ask me. Lemieux played 12 fewer games. I'm not a pace man, but 86 EVP (to go with 93 PPP and 11 SHP for a grand total of 190 points in a 6.28 GPG league) is a lot closer to 95, especially if killing penalties and anchoring the top line are part of his responsibilities.

The overall point is that these seasons shouldn't be considered close because the guy who played 12 more games, had less goals, assists, and points, definitely had less responsibilities, and didn't collect the Hart, Pearson, and Ross (and retro Rocket) that his leader did, because he had a better plus/minus and a small edge in EVP (when taking 12 more games into account).

Definitely need a Pens diehard who watched those teams routinely to comment.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

No, I'm specifically questioning the PK roles of the team that year.

i didn’t look up all of pittsburgh’s forwards but it looks like jagr is behind mario, francis, nedved, and smolinski in pp goals against.

one thing to note though is that those four are all natural centers, so faceoff ability might have been a factor.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I think if Jagr plays even 72 games that year, Pronger finishes 3rd for the Hart behind Bure...I don't know why, but I just get that sense that things would have been "normal" (which is to not give the d-man a lot of love)...

To tie this into the overall Jagr discussion, even at 63 GP, Jagr had ~100 more minutes of ice time than any forward on the Stanley Cup champion New Jersey Devils - and the A-Line all hit 76-79 games.

I think one thing that gets lost in basic hockey statistics that is better captured in the statistics of a sport like baseball is that even if two players on their teams’ #1 lines play a similar number of games, some guys get way more at-bats.

D-men always suffer for Hart votes. It's just the way it is. I think that psychologically voters have trouble committing to voting dmen for the Hart given that they have their own trophy.

More likely it’s that the defensemen who actually are top-5 players in a given season can too easily be sandbagged by their teams’ performance offensively or in net - both of which have direct impact on the statistics by which defensemen are judged.

No one really cares if Jagr’s goaltenders are awful (24th in save percentage in 1999) or if Jose Theodore’s forwards are awful (19th in scoring in 2002), because they are primarily judged on one-way statistics (Jagr’s points and Theodore’s save percentage).

But a defenseman needs a good offensive team, because they’re dependent on forwards finishing plays in order to generate points, and they need good goaltending, because that’s what keeps the minuses off the board.

 

[Sentinel]

Just watch "Pond of Dreams." Jagr, Lindros, Kariya, Bure.

 

[MadLuke]

More likely it’s that the defensemen who actually are top-5 players in a given season can too easily be sandbagged by their teams’ performance offensively or in net - both of which have direct impact on the statistics by which defensemen are judged.

Maybe but Lidstrom spent is career on a great team's for a recent example.

Defenceman won the Hart 13 time in NHL history, 4 times in 67 year's after the Norris trophy started (only 6%), 9 times in 30 occasion before the Norris (30% match quite well being 2 of the 6 position), correlation is no causation but that a huge shift.

And for 3 of those 4 times it was because Orr was quite undeniable.

That said Gretzky is also a factor here (maybe Bourque win one or 2 in a Gretzky less world).

What is also quite likely is talent distribution, does the best and most ambitious athlete kids naturally choose the forward position or not.

 

[MessierII]

Hasek and Jagr. Wasn’t really one guy who separated. Gun to my head Hasek.

 

[JianYang]

It was jagr's time

If Mario hadn't had his 3.5 season retirement, it could have been him, but if he felt the need to retire in the first place, one can conclude that the Mario we knew would not have been the Mario we would have seen in that time period.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

What is also quite likely is talent distribution, does the best and most ambitious athlete kids naturally choose the forward position or not.

This is an interesting question, however I think there are numerous cases where talented kids are convinced or persuaded into transitioning to D, perhaps by their coaches and for whatever reason. I know I read that Erik Karlsson had played forward as a kid, and that he was reluctant to shift to D, however was convinced by his coach arguing how much more ice time he’d get, and that he’d still be allowed to join the offense and do the things he does so well. I doubt that he was regarded less talented a forward than his teammates.

Then there is the role of idols, directly and indirectly. I don’t know about Bourque’s history, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he made the transition to D at some point, influenced in some way by Bobby Orr’s ability to dominate offensively from the position.

I think all kids love to put up points and would thus like to be in the best position to do it, but emulating their heroes probably factors in. Sweden’s known for producing great two-way defensemen by now, and I think that some of it might be because we can tie a highly touted player from any generation, to a hero from a previous generation. Dahlin to Karlsson, Karlsson to Lidström, Lidström to Salming, Salming to Svedberg, Svedberg to Stoltz. You have a long tradition of defensemen who not only were regarded as perhaps the best Swedish player — period — at some point, but who also proved that defensemen can join in on the offense and put up a lot of points.

Same goes for goalies. Pekka Lindmark once said he played in net because that’s where the worst player on the team was put. Of course he said it jokingly, but I bet it’s not too uncommon. However, in the 90s, goalies started becoming some of the best, coolest and most cheered players in all of hockey. Where I’m from, kids wanted to be Jarmo Myllys when we played floorball or land hockey in the mid-to-late 90s, and I know that Myllys has influenced a generation of current goaltenders in both Finland and northern Sweden. Ask Anders Nilsson, Kari Lehtonen and Tuukka Rask who their idols were growing up.

 

[Nathaniel]

It was jagr's time

If Mario hadn't had his 3.5 season retirement, it could have been him, but if he felt the need to retire in the first place, one can conclude that the Mario we knew would not have been the Mario we would have seen in that time period.

Make no mistake. The best hockey player on earth was not in the NHL between 98-2000