Who should Detroit avoid at 4th ?

[Frk It]

Leave my perfect golden child alone, you brute.

 

[PullHard]

Sanderson/Seider might be out Niedermayer/Pronger for 15 years.

Based on what? is Seider supposed to be Niedermayer in this comparison?

I don't have that type of expectation of Seider, and I'm decently high on him

I mean, maybe Sanderson pans out and is a physically gifted, strong skating #2/3 kinda guy, I think that would be a generous outcome for him

Neither of them are very offensively dynamic, so I don't see the parallel

I could say the same thing about drafting whichever forward and say that he and Zadina are going to be our Zetterberg/ Datsyuk for the next 15 years

 

[Frk It]

Let me expand, to see if we can actually form a back-and-forth discussion here.

I think Sanderson and Seider are excellent in transition and through the neutral zone. I think as a pairing, they would really excel there at even strength, and I think that part of the game is very important. Partly because of their physical gifts and athleticism. Partly because they don't make risky plays and know what they can/can't do out there. I also think they would be tough to play against in their own, for sure.

My concern would be once we are set up in the O zone, or if we were on a power play, I have some concerns about how effective those guys will be in a cycle. Not sure how much creativity or puck skills you are getting when the game slows down with them. I find Seider somewhat predictable in the offensive zone, he does like to go D to D a lot. He needs to mix in some different looks, which maybe he will, but right now he is kind of robotic in the offensive zone. That might just be something that is fixable via coaching, we'll see. Then with Sanderson, I mean he pretty much generates all of his offense via transition and transporting the puck at this point. If anyone can find me games or clips to watch where he dissects a team via the cycle, I am all for taking a look. It's not anything I have seen him do.

Sanderson feels a lot like Cam Fowler to me. Which is a guy I have wanted us to try and get for years, but not a guy that would go top 4 if you re-draft his draft class. That's pretty much the same way that I feel about Sanderson. It's just odd this massive swing occurred with him over such a small sample size. I mean he literally went from someone I thought was underrated to overrated in like 3 months. I can't remember anything else quite like it.

 

[Ezekial]

Let me expand, to see if we can actually form a back-and-forth discussion here.

I think Sanderson and Seider are excellent in transition and through the neutral zone. I think as a pairing, they would really excel there at even strength, and I think that part of the game is very important. Partly because of their physical gifts and athleticism. Partly because they don't make risky plays and know what they can/can't do out there. I also think they would be tough to play against in their own, for sure.

My concern would be once we are set up in the O zone, or if we were on a power play, I have some concerns about how effective those guys will be in a cycle. Not sure how much creativity or puck skills you are getting when the game slows down with them. I find Seider somewhat predictable in the offensive zone, he does like to go D to D a lot. He needs to mix in some different looks, which maybe he will, but right now he is kind of robotic in the offensive zone. That might just be something that is fixable via coaching, we'll see. Then with Sanderson, I mean he pretty much generates all of his offense via transition and transporting the puck at this point. If anyone can find me games or clips to watch where he dissects a team via the cycle, I am all for taking a look. It's not anything I have seen him do.

Sanderson feels a lot like Cam Fowler to me. Which is a guy I have wanted us to try and get for years, but not a guy that would go top 4 if you re-draft his draft class. That's pretty much the same way that I feel about Sanderson. It's just odd this massive swing occurred with him over such a small sample size. I mean he literally went from someone I thought was underrated to overrated in like 3 months. I can't remember anything else quite like it.

Basically every clip of him doing something below the dots while not on transition is on the PP (the clip above included), he goes D to D a lot it seems at ES.
I think Sanderson has some of the best defensive instincts I've seen out of a 17 year old in a while-coupled with that ability to skate, he should be a really good player. He's going to eat a lot of minutes against top competition imo, and I really believe him and Seider could smother teams as a tandem. While I really like his ability to skate with the puck and his first pass, it's hard to see him developing into a player he hasn't been so far in his career. He doesn't activate very often in the o-zone outside of transition, he isn't (as someone else put it) that creative, and his shot is as I would say "solid". The hope you would have is that he's a young for the draft class and he was picking up a lot of pace before everything shut down.
This is exactly why I wanted the comfort of a top 3 pick, I hate that we could pick like 7 different guys.

 

[MBH]

Based on what? is Seider supposed to be Niedermayer in this comparison?

I don't have that type of expectation of Seider, and I'm decently high on him

I mean, maybe Sanderson pans out and is a physically gifted, strong skating #2/3 kinda guy, I think that would be a generous outcome for him

Neither of them are very offensively dynamic, so I don't see the parallel

I could say the same thing about drafting whichever forward and say that he and Zadina are going to be our Zetterberg/ Datsyuk for the next 15 years

No. Seider is obviously Pronger and Sanderson Neidermayer.

Sanderson has #1 potential.
Sanderson's USHL production is in line with Carlson's USHL.
And Sanderson is far superior to Carlson defensively.

Hockey Prospect reports him as a superb defensive defenseman (ahead of Seider) who plays the hybrid puck-rushing game.

I was already onboard with Sanderson at 4.
After reading HP - I'm 100 percent sold.
"We view Sanderson as a top
pairing, all situation, big minute eater who can help win games at a better rate than almost any other player in this draft. We like winning games."

 

[MBH]

Well I want a productive defenseman, and someone that can run a PP1 unit. I'm not sure I am getting that at all with Sanderson. I'm also not even sure I am getting that with Seider yet.



For 3 months... I mean this kid didn't even produce offense in his -1 year either.

That's what scouts are for.
I'm sold on him. The best scouting guides in the business + the video packages have me sold.
I was on the fence-but HockeyProspect and watching the video has made me all in.

There are other guys I'd support. Askarov - potential to be an elite goalie. Perfetti - Potential to be an elite center, maybe.

I'm interested in an elite player at a position of need.

 

[Frk It]

That's what scouts are for.
I'm sold on him. The best scouting guides in the business + the video packages have me sold.
I was on the fence-but HockeyProspect and watching the video has made me all in.

There are other guys I'd support. Askarov - potential to be an elite goalie. Perfetti - Potential to be an elite center, maybe.

I'm interested in an elite player at a position of need.

So the NHL scouts that McKenzie polled that had Sanderson at #8?

Let me guess, screw em... Right?

 

[MBH]

So the NHL scouts that McKenzie polled that had Sanderson at #8?

Let me guess, screw em... Right?

I don't know them.
Are they the same 10 as last year?
And 2 of the 10 had him as their best D.
I like McKenzie's rankings. They're fun.
But they aren't scouting reports.

 

[Bench]

So the NHL scouts that McKenzie polled that had Sanderson at #8?

Let me guess, screw em... Right?

McKenzie's list had Elias Pettersson at #7. While I'm overall in agreement with you about this particular player, Sanderson, don't get too caught up in the averages around this range as any kind of appeal to authority.

 

[Frk It]

I don't know them.
Are they the same 10 as last year?
And 2 of the 10 had him as their best D.
I like McKenzie's rankings. They're fun.
But they aren't scouting reports.

I mean, they’re 10 NHL scouts... are they the same as last year? No clue. Still 10 NHL scouts.

I’ve been pushing hockeyprospect.com stuff on this board for a few years, glad you supported them this year. I think of the independent scouting services, they are the best or right up there.

That said, I found their final ranking to be overly reactionary this year. They had Tristen Robins outside their top 50, and Sanderson at #18 in their last ranking before The Black Book, which I believe was in January. Personally, I don’t think there is anything a prospect can do in 3 months that warrants them going from #18 to #5, or outside of the top 50 to #13.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

4th to 7th

 

[MBH]

I mean, they’re 10 NHL scouts... are they the same as last year? No clue. Still 10 NHL scouts.

I’ve been pushing hockeyprospect.com stuff on this board for a few years, glad you supported them this year. I think of the independent scouting services, they are the best or right up there.

That said, I found their final ranking to be overly reactionary this year. They had Tristen Robins outside their top 50, and Sanderson at #18 in their last ranking before The Black Book, which I believe was in January. Personally, I don’t think there is anything a prospect can do in 3 months that warrants them going from #18 to #5, or outside of the top 50 to #13.

I disagree.
I don't think most people know how good a player is until they see it.

Look, you probably remember that I was considering Sanderson based on Recruites. Then came McKeen's. Then came Red Line Report.
All I needed for Sanderson was scouts to tell me he was in the same tier as Drysdale, Perfetti etc.
And I had that.
Then I read hockey prospect. Especially all those scout comments.

If we build down the middle C and Defense and maybe Goalie - we can go get the Wingers.

 

[PullHard]

No. Seider is obviously Pronger and Sanderson Neidermayer.

I don't know how to respond to this without being extremely argumentative so I will just say I don't see it the same way, like at all, and again if he is the guy we draft I hope you are right.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

No. Seider is obviously Pronger and Sanderson Neidermayer.

Sanderson has #1 potential

im as high on Seider as anyone but this is lofty. Lofty, lofty, lofty. And Sanderson as a number one is even stretchier. Stretchy, stretchy, stretchy. Stretchy and lofty.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I disagree.
I don't think most people know how good a player is until they see it.

Look, you probably remember that I was considering Sanderson based on Recruites. Then came McKeen's. Then came Red Line Report.
All I needed for Sanderson was scouts to tell me he was in the same tier as Drysdale, Perfetti etc.
And I had that.
Then I read hockey prospect. Especially all those scout comments.

If we build down the middle C and Defense and maybe Goalie - we can go get the Wingers.

It would be really cool if you actually took the time to watch Sanderson play full games of hockey. It would make for far more interesting conversation.

 

[MBH]

im as high on Seider as anyone but this is lofty. Lofty, lofty, lofty. And Sanderson as a number one is even stretchier. Stretchy, stretchy, stretchy. Stretchy and lofty.

Yes, it's very, very lofty.
Sanderson will be better than Seider, IMO>

There's a good chance neither of these guys reach those standards.
They're Hall of Famers, so yeah.

But that's the mold I see for these guys. Even if they don't reach those lofty levels, if they're poor man's Neidermayers and Prongers, they're going to be the backbone of a very good defense.

But Niedermayer's stats in NJ were usually 10-35-45 or so. I think Sanderson is a good bet to hit that range with consistency.

Pronger's stats were typically in the 35-55 point range too. I think Seider might get somewhere near that range too.

A lot depends on powerplay deploymnent.

 

[ArmChairGM89]

Yes, it's very, very lofty.
Sanderson will be better than Seider, IMO>

There's a good chance neither of these guys reach those standards.
They're Hall of Famers, so yeah.

But that's the mold I see for these guys. Even if they don't reach those lofty levels, if they're poor man's Neidermayers and Prongers, they're going to be the backbone of a very good defense.

But Niedermayer's stats in NJ were usually 10-35-45 or so. I think Sanderson is a good bet to hit that range with consistency.

Pronger's stats were typically in the 35-55 point range too. I think Seider might get somewhere near that range too.

A lot depends on powerplay deploymnent.

I don’t like that Seider has never taken a slap shot in his entire life. And sandersons slapper couldn’t break an egg. That’s if he had the accuracy to hit it.

 

[Astyanax]

The thing that puzzles me the most is people who seemingly believe both of these things:

1. Cole Perfetti is so skilled, and he just needs to improve his skating and he'll be an amazing player. It's not that tough to improve skating, and he's got everything else. He could even play center.

2. Marco Rossi isn't going to be a great player because he needs to improve his skating, and I would never take a player with skating like that. He'll never be a good center because he can't skate.

From what I have seen and heard. It's cole that needs to improve his skating. Rossi is good and plays defense.

 

[Oddbob]

Yes, it's very, very lofty.
Sanderson will be better than Seider, IMO>

There's a good chance neither of these guys reach those standards.
They're Hall of Famers, so yeah.

But that's the mold I see for these guys. Even if they don't reach those lofty levels, if they're poor man's Neidermayers and Prongers, they're going to be the backbone of a very good defense.

But Niedermayer's stats in NJ were usually 10-35-45 or so. I think Sanderson is a good bet to hit that range with consistency.

Pronger's stats were typically in the 35-55 point range too. I think Seider might get somewhere near that range too.

A lot depends on powerplay deploymnent.

Why do you think Sanderson will be better than Seider? Seider went quite high in a fairly good pool of defensive 1st rounders, while this year is lighter on top end talent from defencemen.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

To add to add, both Seider & Sanderson are/were ranked just inside the Top10, ~8 iirc.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

We all need to chill. Pronger was an elite franchise defenseman who won a Hart trophy. Projecting Seider to be anything in that ballpark is extremely ambitious. Just projecting Seider as a #1 defenseman is ambitious in-and-of-itself, but that's on another level.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

We all need to chill. Pronger was an elite franchise defenseman who won a Hart trophy. Projecting Seider to be anything in that ballpark is extremely ambitious. Just projecting Seider as a #1 defenseman is ambitious in-and-of-itself, but that's on another level.

The Pronger comparison is absolutely ludicrous, I'll agree. I'll also state that Pronger's Hart trophy was almost as bad as Taylor Hall's Hart trophy. Norris worthy season? Yes. Hart trophy? Not over 58 goal Bure or Jagr leading the league in scoring despite missing 19 games.

I think Seider definitely has top pair, #1D potential, though. I've stated before that he reminds me a lot of Mattias Ohlund during his Vancouver days. If we can get a true puck rusher then Seider will be the best partner for them.

 

[Henkka]

We all need to chill. Pronger was an elite franchise defenseman who won a Hart trophy. Projecting Seider to be anything in that ballpark is extremely ambitious. Just projecting Seider as a #1 defenseman is ambitious in-and-of-itself, but that's on another level.

Yeah, Pronger also had finnish mother coming from most annoying city in Finland with most annoying hockey players.

Seider doesn't have that element.

 

[Bench]

We all need to chill. Pronger was an elite franchise defenseman who won a Hart trophy. Projecting Seider to be anything in that ballpark is extremely ambitious. Just projecting Seider as a #1 defenseman is ambitious in-and-of-itself, but that's on another level.

Norris to be renamed the Seider in 25 years.

 

[ZDH]

Sanderson is about the only possible realistic pick at #4 that will piss me off.

Just take Drysdale if you want to go D.