Who is the best Russian prospect of all time?

[TheBig08]

Who is the best Russian prospect of all time?
I’ve seen the stuff on how matvei michkov is the best Russian prospect since ovi and Malkin so I just wanted to see who yhall think is the best of all time?

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[MadLuke]

There was some talk of Ovechkin possibly be number 1 even if he was Crosby year, he started to play pro hockey with adults draft-2 as a young 16 years old.

The kind of prospect being projected number 1 overall for years, team burning 9 round draft pick on him a year early in case some birth certificate typo get revealed or rule change regarding 29 february calculation occur.

The big one pre Berlin wall Fedorov-Bure, etc..., harder to judge but up there.

 

[JackSlater]

Michkov wasn't even the first Russian drafted in his draft. If he was Ovechkin he would have gone first despite any theoretical issue with drafting Russians.

Ovechkin was a big time prospect, but his greatness has surpassed his projections as a prospect. His hype was pretty much in line with Kovalchuk's, probably mildly more, which is that of a very high end number 1 though not the prospect level of a Lindros or Crosby. Bure would also be on that level. Prior to that I don't think that we can get a real sense of a Makarov or Fetisov as a prospect.

 

[TheBig08]

When i meant by best is stats and skill wise. I like to think that ovi is the best russian prospect, I am a big Ovi fan but matvei michkov does hold the record for highest ppg in the khl be a draft eligible player which was 0.67 if u include his 3 games where he had almost no ice time ( 20 points 30 games) and I think 0.72 if u don’t (20 pouts 27 games). While ovi had a 0.45 (24 points 53 games). But I do know that michkov did it in the khl and ovi did it in the RSL. I don’t if there is a difference between the two leagues. Also the RSL is the predecessor of the KHL. Ovi also has the really good 2001-2002 WJC-18 run (14 goals 4 assist 8 games) but michkov also had a good WJC-18 run (12 goals 12 goals 4 assist 7 games). Those where the only leagues/tournament they both played in as far as i can tell and once again I don’t if there is a difference between the KHL and RSL but i do know the RSL is the predecessor of the KHL. So who is a better prospect ovi or michkov let me know what you think.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Iron curtain era isn't as easy but IMO the Russian player GMs and media have drooled over the most (even if he wasn't obtainable) is Fetisov

 

[Crosby2010]

Does Tretiak count? Once we saw him in 1972 it was a dream to have him. The Habs even drafted him in 1983 with a longshot chance of getting him and him being allowed to come over.

But I think this answer is easily Ovechkin here. Kovalchuk wasn't really thought to be the #1 overall pick until late in his draft year. It was between him and Spezza that year and up until the end of 2001 the consensus was that Spezza was the special player that would be #1.

Ovechkin I can remember people drooling over him in the 2003 WJC. You saw how great he was going to be even at that time. I am not sure there is another Russian that had his impact. If Malkin had his own draft year and went #1 you could argue he was sought after as well, but I am still taking Ovechkin here.

 

[Staniowski]

Depends whether you're talking about the NHL Draft, or just prospects in general....and the differences around NHL availability, USSR vs Russia....

If you start with Fetisov and Makarov, they were very big prospects and both were great players when they were teenagers.

You can even go back to Maltsev, Petrov, and Kharlamov, then Tretiak. All were big prospects.

After Fetisov and Makarov, Krutov was the next big one. Kasatonov just a bit less so.

In the mid '80s, Kamensky, then Tatarinov, and maybe Semak.

Mogilny and Fedorov were the same age, Mogilny was the bigger prospect at first (possible 1st overall in '87 Draft, if available), Fedorov became a very big prospect also, but a year or two later.

Then Bure, who would've easily been 1st overall in '89, if available (to play in the NHL).

After Bure, the next mega prospect was Kovalchuk, though there were lesser guys like Yashin, Tverdovsky, etc.

Ovechkin and Malkin were very big. I think I heard of them both when the were 14 or 15 years old.

Kucherov and Kaprizov were both huge scorers when they were teenagers. People have always underestimated them both, though, especially Kucherov. But they've never changed. Kaprizov is the best-scoring 19 year old in KHL history (ahead of Michkov).

Michkov and Demidov are great, they've been barred from participating in the WJC and other international tournaments, unfortunately.

 

[TheBig08]

Depends whether you're talking about the NHL Draft, or just prospects in general....and the differences around NHL availability, USSR vs Russia....

If you start with Fetisov and Makarov, they were very big prospects and both were great players when they were teenagers.

You can even go back to Maltsev, Petrov, and Kharlamov, then Tretiak. All were big prospects.

After Fetisov and Makarov, Krutov was the next big one. Kasatonov just a bit less so.

In the mid '80s, Kamensky, then Tatarinov, and maybe Semak.

Mogilny and Fedorov were the same age, Mogilny was the bigger prospect at first (possible 1st overall in '87 Draft, if available), Fedorov became a very big prospect also, but a year or two later.

Then Bure, who would've easily been 1st overall in '89, if available (to play in the NHL).

After Bure, the next mega prospect was Kovalchuk, though there were lesser guys like Yashin, Tverdovsky, etc.

Ovechkin and Malkin were very big. I think I heard of them both when the were 14 or 15 years old.

Kucherov and Kaprizov were both huge scorers when they were teenagers. People have always underestimated them both, though, especially Kucherov. But they've never changed. Kaprizov is the best-scoring 19 year old in KHL history (ahead of Michkov).

Michkov and Demidov are great, they've been barred from participating in the WJC and other international tournaments, unfortunately.

When i meant by best is stats and skill wise. I like to think that ovi is the best russian prospect, I am a big Ovi fan but matvei michkov does hold the record for highest ppg in the khl be a draft eligible player which was 0.67 if u include his 3 games where he had almost no ice time ( 20 points 30 games) and I think 0.72 if u don’t (20 pouts 27 games). While ovi had a 0.45 (24 points 53 games). But I do know that michkov did it in the khl and ovi did it in the RSL. I don’t if there is a difference between the two leagues. Also the RSL is the predecessor of the KHL. Ovi also has the really good 2001-2002 WJC-18 run (14 goals 4 assist 8 games) but michkov also had a good WJC-18 run (12 goals 12 goals 4 assist 7 games). Those where the only leagues/tournament they both played in as far as i can tell and once again I don’t if there is a difference between the KHL and RSL but i do know the RSL is the predecessor of the KHL. So who is a better prospect ovi or michkov let me know what you think.

 

[MrGuyPerson]

This is actually quite an interesting thread. Do we go back to soviet era? Since it is being compared across different generations, it should be noted the KHL is modern day version of the top Soviet League/the RSL. It is a subject I recently looked into just out of general interest in just how good Kharlomov was. I guess I will include what I learned as well as a few others :


Ilya Kovalchuk

I am listing him first because someone has referenced him being the best and prospect and it is false. Outstanding prospect and NHLer, but his draft season wasn't even played in the top Russian pro league.

DY: Russia 2- 39gp 43pts 1.10 p/g. This league would be the VHL today. Again outstanding, but does not sniff some of the guys on the list. Did not make the world junior team in D-1, only u18 and u17. Again good, but no the guys with actual claim to the title were leading their team to medals as underaged players in international tournaments


Valeri Kharlamov

Not quite a child prodigy, but likely a top 3 player in the world at one point. He never got to play in the NHL, but it certainly sounds like if Bobby Clarke did not swing a club at his leg breaking his ankle the soviets likely would have beat Canada in the 72 super series. I should include Canada was also not at full strength without Bobby Orr and another player(I think maybe Gordie Howe). Have to include the last sentence because even today some people may respond passionately if I don't. He was easily one of the best in the world and his impact on icr hockey in Russia can not be understated.



Pavel Bure

If my math is correct, in what would be his normal DY he had 26 pts in 32gp good for .81 p/g in the top Soviet league. Scored 2 p/g at the WJC. Hall of Fame player. Likely ranked 1st if you refuse to believe Ovie was indeed a superior prospect


Alexander Ovechkin

If he was not the best Russian prospect of all time, he certainly was the best since Bure. By all accounts a child prodigy.

D-2: RSL - 21gp 4 pts in the RSL(A league Kovalchuk was not in at all let alone at 16). U18 WJC - 8gp 18pts(numbers Kovalchuk didn't even touch in his draft year I.E. 2 years older).
D-1 : WJC - 6gp 7pts 1.17p/g(Kovalchuk didn't make the WJ team until his Draft Year) RSL - 40gp 15pts
DY: RSL - 53GP 24pts and he played for Russia's national team at the WC.
D+1 RSL- 37gp 26pts .70 p/g.

This all assumes he was in fact the age he says, which judging by him looking 50 currently and supposedly being 39, who knows?


Matvei Michkov

Yes, unfortunately for some and fortunate for Flyers fans he does indeed have a very valid claim to "Goat Russian Prospect", but it will likely depend on how he follows it up for him to claim the title.

D-2 : MHL 56gp 56pts 1.00 p/g. This is the highest D-2 production rate in league history for a player of his age. WJC u18 7gp 16pts. Lead tournament in scoring ahead of Bedard and won the MVP as a double underaged player(Kovalchuk did not make the u18 team in his D-2)
D-1 : KHL - 13gp 5 pts. MHL 28gp 51pts or 1.82 p/g. Excluding the 1 guy who played 1 game and scored twice, this is the best production rate of any u18/D-1 player ever in the MHL. In the Canceled WJC 2gp 3pts.
DY: VHL - 12GP 14pts 1.17 p/g(which beats Kovalchuk's 1.10 in what would today be the VHL not the KHL/RSL). KHL 30gp 20 pts for .67 p/g. If you exclude the 3 games rostered for SKA in which he barely played, 27gp 20pts .74 p/g. That is the best rate of production for a Draft year player in both leagues.
D+1: 48gp 41pts .85 p/g. If the 1 game for SKA is excluded, the p/g rises to .87. Both the highest for D+1 season in the league.

Yevgeni Malkin

D-1 : Russia 3 league(No clue what this would be today) 28gp 14 pts. At u18 WJC 6gp 9pts
DY : RSL - 34gp 12pts. 1 less point at u18s. WJC 6gp 5 pts.
D+1 : RSL - 52gp 32pts. WJC 6gp 10pts. Then world championship 9gp 4pts

Kirill Kaprizov

D-1 : MHL - 52gp 34 points.
Draft year : KHL - 31gp 8pts. Point per game 4 for 4 at u18 WJC.
D+1 : KHL 53gp 27pts
D+2 : KHL 49gp 42pts

Nikita Kucherov

D-1 : MHL - 53gp 54pts
DY : KHL - 9gp 2pts. MHL - 41gp 58pts. WJCu18 7gp 21pts
D+1 : KHL - 18gp 5pts. MHL - 23gp 43pts. WJC 7gp 7pts

Ivan Demidov

D-2 : MHL - 25gp 21 pts
D-1 : KHL - 2GP 0pts. MHL - 44gp 64pts 1.45 p/g
DY : KHL - 4gp 0pts VHL - 1gp 0pts MHL - 30gp 60pts 2p/g

Side note this took forever so I just started doing stats instead. Check out the numbers and draw your own conclusions. Honorable mention goes to Alexei Cherepanov. We will never know just how good he would be in the NHL unfortunately

 

[WarriorofTime]

Kind of a separate question, but what was the perception of Alexei Yashin around the 1992 Draft? A year after Kovalev was the first Russian player to go first round, Yashin became the Ottawa Senators first ever draft pick, taken 2nd overall, a pick after Roman Hamrlik also came from behind the other side of the former iron curtain. A 2nd overall is quite a bit higher of a commitment than what would have been a mid-1st round pick. Was Yashin hyped as a big deal? Was there seen as any sort of risk to drafting a Russian with such a premium pick, or perhaps not really since you had Fedorov, Mogilny and Bure all notably making an impact as young players already?

 

[TheBig08]

.

This is actually quite an interesting thread. Do we go back to soviet era? Since it is being compared across different generations, it should be noted the KHL is modern day version of the top Soviet League/the RSL. It is a subject I recently looked into just out of general interest in just how good Kharlomov was. I guess I will include what I learned as well as a few others :


Ilya Kovalchuk

I am listing him first because someone has referenced him being the best and prospect and it is false. Outstanding prospect and NHLer, but his draft season wasn't even played in the top Russian pro league.

DY: Russia 2- 39gp 43pts 1.10 p/g. This league would be the VHL today. Again outstanding, but does not sniff some of the guys on the list. Did not make the world junior team in D-1, only u18 and u17. Again good, but no the guys with actual claim to the title were leading their team to medals as underaged players in international tournaments


Valeri Kharlamov

Not quite a child prodigy, but likely a top 3 player in the world at one point. He never got to play in the NHL, but it certainly sounds like if Bobby Clarke did not swing a club at his leg breaking his ankle the soviets likely would have beat Canada in the 72 super series. I should include Canada was also not at full strength without Bobby Orr and another player(I think maybe Gordie Howe). Have to include the last sentence because even today some people may respond passionately if I don't. He was easily one of the best in the world and his impact on icr hockey in Russia can not be understated.



Pavel Bure

If my math is correct, in what would be his normal DY he had 26 pts in 32gp good for .81 p/g in the top Soviet league. Scored 2 p/g at the WJC. Hall of Fame player. Likely ranked 1st if you refuse to believe Ovie was indeed a superior prospect


Alexander Ovechkin

If he was not the best Russian prospect of all time, he certainly was the best since Bure. By all accounts a child prodigy.

D-2: RSL - 21gp 4 pts in the RSL(A league Kovalchuk was not in at all let alone at 16). U18 WJC - 8gp 18pts(numbers Kovalchuk didn't even touch in his draft year I.E. 2 years older).
D-1 : WJC - 6gp 7pts 1.17p/g(Kovalchuk didn't make the WJ team until his Draft Year) RSL - 40gp 15pts
DY: RSL - 53GP 24pts and he played for Russia's national team at the WC.
D+1 RSL- 37gp 26pts .70 p/g.

This all assumes he was in fact the age he says, which judging by him looking 50 currently and supposedly being 39, who knows?


Matvei Michkov

Yes, unfortunately for some and fortunate for Flyers fans he does indeed have a very valid claim to "Goat Russian Prospect", but it will likely depend on how he follows it up for him to claim the title.

D-2 : MHL 56gp 56pts 1.00 p/g. This is the highest D-2 production rate in league history for a player of his age. WJC u18 7gp 16pts. Lead tournament in scoring ahead of Bedard and won the MVP as a double underaged player(Kovalchuk did not make the u18 team in his D-2)
D-1 : KHL - 13gp 5 pts. MHL 28gp 51pts or 1.82 p/g. Excluding the 1 guy who played 1 game and scored twice, this is the best production rate of any u18/D-1 player ever in the MHL. In the Canceled WJC 2gp 3pts.
DY: VHL - 12GP 14pts 1.17 p/g(which beats Kovalchuk's 1.10 in what would today be the VHL not the KHL/RSL). KHL 30gp 20 pts for .67 p/g. If you exclude the 3 games rostered for SKA in which he barely played, 27gp 20pts .74 p/g. That is the best rate of production for a Draft year player in both leagues.
D+1: 48gp 41pts .85 p/g. If the 1 game for SKA is excluded, the p/g rises to .87. Both the highest for D+1 season in the league.

Yevgeni Malkin

D-1 : Russia 3 league(No clue what this would be today) 28gp 14 pts. At u18 WJC 6gp 9pts
DY : RSL - 34gp 12pts. 1 less point at u18s. WJC 6gp 5 pts.
D+1 : RSL - 52gp 32pts. WJC 6gp 10pts. Then world championship 9gp 4pts

Kirill Kaprizov

D-1 : MHL - 52gp 34 points.
Draft year : KHL - 31gp 8pts. Point per game 4 for 4 at u18 WJC.
D+1 : KHL 53gp 27pts
D+2 : KHL 49gp 42pts

Nikita Kucherov

D-1 : MHL - 53gp 54pts
DY : KHL - 9gp 2pts. MHL - 41gp 58pts. WJCu18 7gp 21pts
D+1 : KHL - 18gp 5pts. MHL - 23gp 43pts. WJC 7gp 7pts

Ivan Demidov

D-2 : MHL - 25gp 21 pts
D-1 : KHL - 2GP 0pts. MHL - 44gp 64pts 1.45 p/g
DY : KHL - 4gp 0pts VHL - 1gp 0pts MHL - 30gp 60pts 2p/g

Side note this took forever so I just started doing stats instead. Check out the numbers and draw your own conclusions. Honorable mention goes to Alexei Cherepanov. We will never know just how good he would be in the NHL unfortunately

thank you for the information. I believe this is his DY because he was drafted in the 1989 draft and also ovi broke one of pavel bure records in junior league or something do u have more info on that such as what league was that and do u think matvei michkov is a better a prospect than ovi and will he be better than ovi? My personal opinion ovi is the best russian prospect of all time.

1989-90

CSKA Moskva

Soviet

46

14

10

24

 

[MrGuyPerson]

.


thank you for the information. I believe this is his DY because he was drafted in the 1989 draft and also ovi broke one of pavel bure records in junior league or something do u have more info on that such as what league was that and do u think matvei michkov is a better a prospect than ovi and will he be better than ovi? My personal opinion ovi is the best russian prospect of all time.

1989-90

CSKA Moskva

Soviet

46

14

10

24

If those are Bure's stats, that would be his D+1, I think. He was drafted in 89 and the draft happens after the season so his draft year was 88-89. I believe Ovie is the best Russian prospect ever. Michkov can only really claim the title if he out produces Ovie in the NHL. That sounds strange because technically Michkov out produced Ovie as a child so if we are comparing their pre-NHL performance their NHL career shouldn't affect that, but unfortunately it does and will.

History is written by revisionists so as of now Michkov merely has a chance to be known the best Russian prospect ever. If he busts he will be known as the best Russian prospect to not pan out. If he does great, but does not eclipse Ovie's production he will be remembered as " One of the Best Russian prospects", if he eclipses ovies production and wins at least 1 cup he will get the crown. If he is close, but slightly behind Ovie in production, but wins 2 cups their will be debate. And vice versa he eclipses Ovie's production, but never wins a cup there will be debate.

In short, Michkov has potential to be remembered as the best Russian prospect ever, but that requires outproducing the future all time NHL goals leader which is pretty tall task

 

[Michael Farkas]

Your stock as a prospect can improve after you stop being a prospect...?

 

[MrGuyPerson]

Your stock as a prospect can improve after you stop being a prospect...?

100%. As a prospect Michkov out performed Ovie, if you think saying he will absolutely better than Ovie be my guest, but the only label I am comfort giving is "best since". In ~15 years the story of his career will written. The label assigned to his prospect pedigree will depend on how he performs in the league and I guarantee that

 

[Bear of Bad News]

100%. As a prospect Michkov out performed Ovie, if you think saying he will absolutely better than Ovie be my guest, but the only label I am comfort giving is "best since". In ~15 years the story of his career will written. The label assigned to his prospect pedigree will depend on how he performs in the league and I guarantee that

You're referring to "best player", not "best prospect".

 

[MrGuyPerson]

You're referring to "best player", not "best prospect".

Yes, that is how it will go. Michkov outproduced Ovie as a prospect. On paper he should be considered the supeior prospect. Most people will not agree with that because of Ovechkin's NHL performance. If Ovechkin busted do you think he would be considered the best Russian prospect of all time? The answer is no. That is how it works admit it or not

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Yes, that is how it will go. Michkov outproduced Ovie as a prospect. On paper he should be considered the supeior prospect. Most people will not agree with that because of Ovechkin's NHL performance. If Ovechkin busted do you think he would be considered the best Russian prospect of all time? The answer is no. That is how it works admit it or not

What are we doing here? I want out.

 

[MadLuke]

Did he outshine Ovechkin D+1 ?

During Ovechkin d+1 season he scored like Afinogenov-Datsyuk on the Moscow Dynamo.

The league could have been significantly stronger during Ovechkin NHL lockout year, Kovalchuck and Jagr did well but did not dominate it.

Last year Reid Bouched won the scoring title, maybe the Russian number 1 caliber post war went down quite a bit, at least versus 2004-2005 when it was all time high because of the nhl stoppage.

 

[VanIslander]

Tretiak was 20 years old during the Summit Series.

The rest of the decade was talk about 'what if' he could play in the NHL.

His prospects were poor.

 

[Michael Farkas]

If Ovechkin busted do you think he would be considered the best Russian prospect of all time? The answer is no.

Yes, if Ovechkin somehow busted, he'd still have been among the best Russian prospects of all time.

 

[TheBig08]

If those are Bure's stats, that would be his D+1, I think. He was drafted in 89 and the draft happens after the season so his draft year was 88-89. I believe Ovie is the best Russian prospect ever. Michkov can only really claim the title if he out produces Ovie in the NHL. That sounds strange because technically Michkov out produced Ovie as a child so if we are comparing their pre-NHL performance their NHL career shouldn't affect that, but unfortunately it does and will.

History is written by revisionists so as of now Michkov merely has a chance to be known the best Russian prospect ever. If he busts he will be known as the best Russian prospect to not pan out. If he does great, but does not eclipse Ovie's production he will be remembered as " One of the Best Russian prospects", if he eclipses ovies production and wins at least 1 cup he will get the crown. If he is close, but slightly behind Ovie in production, but wins 2 cups their will be debate. And vice versa he eclipses Ovie's production, but never wins a cup there will be debate.

In short, Michkov has potential to be remembered as the best Russian prospect ever, but that requires outproducing the future all time NHL goals leader which is pretty tall task

I want know who do you think was the better prospect? just focus on pre nhl performance leave out their nhl career.

 

[MadLuke]

I think there 2 different things, if someone could be a very high touted prospect based on projection and what they become, how they grow their bodies, etc... one could argue that it could be proven right or wrong....

Say Lecavalier being so much more hyped than a Brad Richards, part of it was projection or raw talents and being 6 foot 4 than what they respectively did in juniors.

Both Richards and Lecalier had a 115 pts season their draft year (Vincent score 41 pts in the playoff too and played 10 less game).

Ovechkin was already playing with adults and nhl ready as a prospect, it was not that much about projecting something in the future the scout betted on.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I think there 2 different things, if someone could be a very high touted prospect based on projection and what they become, how they grow their bodies, etc... one could argue that it could be proven right or wrong....

Say Lecavalier being so much more hyper than a Brad Richards, part of it was projection or raw talents and being 6 foot 4 than what they respectively did in juniors.

Both Richards and Lecalier had a 115 pts season their draft year (Vincent score 41 pts in the playoff too and played 10 less game).

Ovechkin was already playing with adults and nhl ready as a prospect, it was not that much about projecting something in the future the scout betted on.

MacKinnon and Drouin are a great example of this.

Same team. Frequently same line. Drouin massively outpointed MacKinnon.

MacKinnon went first overall. The projection at draft year proved correct.

 

[MrGuyPerson]

I want know who do you think was the better prospect? just focus on pre nhl performance leave out their nhl career.

It is tough to say. They are very different in their styles. Ovechkin had/has a more powerful shot. Michkov has a much better IQ. I think Ovechkin had more straight line speed, but Michkov's edge work/lateral movement is way better than Ovie's. Michkov's best plays come through puck possession where as Ovie's were created from explosiveness.

Their play styles are so different it is weird to compare them, but if both were 18 and on the draft board with 0 non hockey risk to consider and I'm making the pick, I personally would take Michkov. When I evaluate players the trait I put the highest weight in is IQ. Giving IQ the highest weight could be a flaw in my evaluations that leads to me passing on a player I know will become the future all time leader in goals, but IQ is the reason Sid was better than Ovie. And IQ is the reason Gretzky was the great one. Michkov's IQ is special where as Ovie's IQ peaked at good. Hopefully saying this doesn't jinx the kids future, but it is true to how I personally evaluate and rank talent.

 

[Michael Farkas]

IQ should be the highest weight, but I don't find Michkov's IQ to be special at all. I'm actually making a video about that right now, as luck would have it...I think he's more in the Alexei Kovalev mold...