Who is the best example of "If he won a Cup he's in the HHOF" type of guy?

[MadLuke]

probably would have done as much for his career retrospective as the '97 Smythe did for Vernon. ... I know Vernon was erroneously entered in the HOF recently

I mean, this is almost agreeing with the poster.

2cup in a row for Osgood, .930 in the 2008 finals, was .930 in 2009, if he win maybe he was a bit higher, people in retrospect would have look at the numbers....

They were such a loaded team at the time:

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Holmstrom, Hudler, Maltby, Draper barely used, Marian Hossa is your 9th most used skater... that maybe it does not remove all the cog in the wings machine aura, but 2008 already put a ding on it and it is not like Vernon Flams or Wings were less superteams.

I can see it becoming too much (if a smythe specially) for Osgood, 400 regular season wins, 75 playoffs wins, "3" cups, solid play pre-Detroit returns with the Islanders-Blues, nhl all star teams.

If Vernom goes in, how do they keep 2xcup as the starter Osgood or Fleury out.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think as years go on, the HOF represents perception and reality less and less...

Not that this subforum is the be-all, end-all of anything...but did anyone's perception of Mike Vernon change because he was a surprise induction to the HOF after the ~20th "try"...?

 

[kaiser matias]

There are already some saying Osgood should be in. Adding another Cup win to his name would only amplify those calls, for better or worse.

As for the vote, I went with Joseph. Strong name as is, and a Cup win (especially with the Leafs) would certainly give him a lot of credibility as a candidate, considering the way goalies are treated by the Hall.

 

[MadLuke]

I think as years go on, the HOF represents perception and reality less and less...

Not that this subforum is the be-all, end-all of anything...but did anyone's perception of Mike Vernon change because he was a surprise induction to the HOF after the ~20th "try"...?

I am not sure the nuance being made, people try to predict what the perception among voters (or what they feel they need to do if it is not their true feeling) would be, not the perception or opinion of people at large. And once the player get in, he is in, what it do on the perception of people is a different thing. I feel hockey HHOF is open enough to not mean much, people use it in some Lemieux talk about how many HHOF was there, but that Joe Mullen is an HHOF but Kevin Stevens is not feel quite empty to most.

We can be almost certain that without that extra cup and Smythe Vernom does not get in

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Brian Propp, maybe

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think as years go on, the HOF represents perception and reality less and less...

Not that this subforum is the be-all, end-all of anything...but did anyone's perception of Mike Vernon change because he was a surprise induction to the HOF after the ~20th "try"...?

the weirdest thing is in recent years there are names that you hear every year for a long time — roenick, turgeon, barrasso, housley, doug wilson, and a little farther back mark howe — some for good reasons, some for bad. but then there’s mike vernon (and kevin lowe) who absolutely no one was asking for.

i feel like ciccarelli was another guy where it was like, seriously who is waiting for this?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Carey Price? Or is it believed he will get in regardless around here?

I think he should, not sure what people think.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Price is a windmill slam dunk for the HOF...

 

[carjackmalone]

Bobby Smith 1000 points and a cup still not in

 

[bobholly39]

Carey Price? Or is it believed he will get in regardless around here?

I think he should, not sure what people think.

Yeah Carey Price is a first ballot hall of fame unquestionably.

But - even ignoring that - Price has the same problem as Vanbiesbrouck when it comes to this thread.

Price was phenomenal in 2021 playoffs. Conn smythe worthy run, carrying a team that had no right to make it that far to the finals. Same idea for Florida in 1996. Does winning a cup vs losing the way they did as huge underdogs even impact their legacies all that much?

Unless of course you're adding a completely separate playoff run/cup to their resume. That is definitely more impactful.

To me a Conn smythe worthy run with no cup, vs one with a cup - has very similar value for a players resume.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

keith tkachuk probably has a different reputation if he is a main cog in a cup winner

 

[The Macho King]

Yeah Carey Price is a first ballot hall of fame unquestionably.

But - even ignoring that - Price has the same problem as Vanbiesbrouck when it comes to this thread.

Price was phenomenal in 2021 playoffs. Conn smythe worthy run, carrying a team that had no right to make it that far to the finals. Same idea for Florida in 1996. Does winning a cup vs losing the way they did as huge underdogs even impact their legacies all that much?

Unless of course you're adding a completely separate playoff run/cup to their resume. That is definitely more impactful.

To me a Conn smythe worthy run with no cup, vs one with a cup - has very similar value for a players resume.

Price was .924 in the 21 playoffs. Especially for the playoffs, that's good not "phenomenal".

 

[Michael Farkas]

Price was .924 in the 21 playoffs. Especially for the playoffs, that's good not "phenomenal".

That's an averaging stat and not his Greatness Rating (tm)

 

[Crosby2010]

Ugh, that would have been a bad choice...

That said, I don't think it changes much for Osgood. I think everyone is set on the "he was overrated by being a cog in the Wings machine"...adding a hotly contested trophy (which probably would have gone to Zetterberg if he did something in games 6 and/or 7; it also might have gone to Malkin anyhow) probably would have done as much for his career retrospective as the '97 Smythe did for Vernon.

I know Vernon was erroneously entered in the HOF recently, but no one seems terribly impressed by that either. I guess beauty (or the opposite in this case) is the eye of the beholder...

With Vernon at least he actually did win a Smythe. Fedorov is as good of a choice as any in 1997 but it isn't like Vernon didn't play well either. And personally I am more impressed with him in 1989 when he didn't win the Smythe but still the Cup. Vernon was so hot and cold, but I always feel as if when he was hot he was easily better than Osgood and more central to his teams' success. And even then it took him forever to get in, and the HHOF was still okay if he wasn't in there. So no chance for Osgood regardless I think.

I don't really agree with some of the Vanbiesbrouck mentions. The way I figure is - 1996 Florida is as "cinderalla run" as it gets. Does winning the finals vs losing really impact his legacy that much? I personally don't think so - if he's not in today, I don't think that extra win makes a difference.

Rick Middleton is at least intriguing to me, if we're talking about 1983

1. He gets one whole extra round of playoffs that year. Likely ends up one of only 3 players in NHL history (till McDavid) to have 40+ points in a playoffs

2. His insane playoff run would have been the dynasty killer, stopping NYI at 3, instead of 4

3. His insane playoff run would have been the dynaste preventer - stopping Oilers from winning cup in 83, having to wait a year till 84

He'd get a lot of extra mileage from adding a cup/smythe in 83 to his legacy. it might be enough

Joseph is probably the most intriguing name here. Depends what year though. Does he win as a complte underdog in the late 90s? in 2002 Toronto, ending the leafs cup drought? Any of those scenarios, along with a smythe, could probably push him over. If anything, he should already be in the HOF for me.

Think about this with Beezer though. If the Cup happens in 1996 he beats three giants in a row en route to a Cup. A thing that had dogged him was that he wasn't a "playoff" goalie up until then. That year proved things wrong as it was and a Cup would have cemented it. Since Beezer already has a good case and is routinely thought of as a goalie who is the best that isn't in, I feel a Cup makes it a consensus. Not just that, but does a Cup change the World Cup roster that year? Granted, Richter played out of his mind in order for the States to win but if Beezer is a Cup winner maybe he takes Richter's spot and win or lose a finals loss to Canada is still not bad. Who knows, but a Cup changes things for him. (I believe it was a contract dispute, or was it an injury, that kept Beezer out of the 1996 World Cup)

By the way, a Cup by Middleton in 1983 locks him in. I said 1979 just because I think the 1979 Rangers are easier to beat than the 1983 Oilers, but either way that's one for the ages. Keep one thing in mind though, crazy to think but the Smythe wasn't a gimme for him that year either. 33 points is epic, but Barry Pederson had 32 and Ray Bourque had 23. You never know who wins it, depends on how things shake down in the finals, but crazy to think a guy with 33 points in three rounds and owner of the most points in a playoff series (19) doesn't necessarily get the Smythe that year. But it doesn't matter either way, that's a whale of a playoff run and his face is probably the biggest part of it. Hall for sure, no arguments.

Bill White only played around 600 regular season games, but NHL coaches and GMs viewed him as one of the absolute best defensive defencemen in the world for most of his career. There’s a damn good reason why Harry Sinden made sure White was on the ice for the last 34 seconds of the ‘72 summit series. Made the SC finals twice with Chicago, in ‘71 and ‘73. Retired in 1976 after a career-ending neck injury.

He didn’t make the NHL until age 28, but not because he wasn’t good enough to play in the league. Eddie Shore just wouldn’t let him leave AHL Springfield. The pro hockey world was different in those days. It wasn’t until the Indians players went on strike that Shore caved and peddled his players to the Kings in the late-60s.

I’m one of those guys who thinks he should be in the Hall anyway. Bill White was really, really good. Finished 3rd in the Norris vote three straight years in a league with Bobby Orr and Brad Park. Give him a SC ring and I believe he’d be in the Hall.

Classic stay at home guy, but a tower of power. Just wasn't in the NHL long enough I don't think. Maybe a Cup changes it but then again if you mention Bill White you think of the 1972 Summit Series as well. And he was a beast there and still hasn't gotten in. Maybe the Pete Mahovlich of defenseman that way (without the Stanley Cups). Nice peak, not long enough.