Who has the better Cup window? Panthers or Leafs

[Gorskyontario]

The leafs get more respect in the handshake line.

 

[archangel2]

Bruins will catch the Leafs, so there's that. And, the fact that past playoff performance is an indicator of future results.

What slightly confuses me about this thread is that the leafs sit tied with the oilers in 7th overall. Using the logic of this thread we should also have threads on The Oiler, The Jets, The Wild, The Caps, The Devils and Vegas.

 

[Laus723]

If player X is signing in Ottawa the AAV will be more than 10% larger than if that exact same player signed in Florida. Or Dallas. Or Vegas. Or Nashville.

It wouldn’t matter what temperature the climate is or if there are palm trees or even if the team is good or bad.

It’s provincial taxation versus no taxation.

And an obvious issue in a hard cap environment.

And is the source of the results we’ve seen for 5 years.

Literally from the NHL commissioner’s office:

“The NHL will continue to monitor the issue, and may need to address it if the next 10 years are similar to the last five.”

I’ll translate: “we’re tired of revenue sharing a chunk of our profits so you can exist, so here, have some good times and the few of you who can build a fan base can keep your team when it’s over”.

The rest of us don’t have to like this. My team isn’t in the playoff hunt but ya know what? I don’t want to watch Florida Florida Dallas Vegas again. Atleast one of the taxed teams drafted 2 goats so we can have something interesting - but it sure does feel like Edmonton is a cap nightmare (double offer sheet) and I don’t sense longevity…

It’s taboo to discuss because the league doesn’t want to disenfranchise 25 fanbases. Everybody is expected to suck it up so Toronto can stop paying floridas bills.

Lazy. Whining. Uneducated. Bullshit. Floridas owners are loaded and paid everyone’s salaries during Covid, unlike some northern teams. They’ve spent a shit ton building a practice facility near the majority of players’ homes, invested in the community, spent to the cap, and allowed the GM to do his job. Zito spent draft capital, young players, AND cap space building a roster that won the Cup. We also lost the entire 4th line, 2 of our defenders, our Cup winning RW, and are paying our goalies $15 mil.

Players wanted to come here for a host of reasons, but anyone whining about taxes, sure it’s an advantage, but it’s not the ONLY advantage. Leafs and Rangers had decades where they could fork out major money and still only won one Cup between the two of them. Why do you think that is? The Panthers have one of the best locker room environments in the League, they all cheer each other on. It’s not all egos and thinking that adding star players will win them the Cup.

Yeah, it’s an advantage, but people saying it’s THE reason just need excuses as to why their teams’s aren't/haven’t been better. Ownership matters.

Or just cry more. No one gives a f*** if you acknowledge Cup wins, their names are still in it.

 

[Goose]

As a Leafs fan more optimistic than most about the team, this is Florida all day if you had to bet on it.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Apples and Oranges.

Panthers have been to two cups and won one.

Oilers would be a better comparison

 

[T REX]

TheImpatientPanther had a poll going for these two teams for a couple years.
The majority felt Toronto was in a better position for both threads in 2022 and 2023 IIRC.

Whos the better team the next 3 years? Panthers or Leafs?

Florida Panthers https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/panthers Toronto Maple Leafs https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/mapleleafs

forums.hfboards.com

Wondering if public opinion has changed since these two teams seem destined to fight for the Atlantic crown for the next 3-4 years.
They had one playoff series so far, Panthers winning that one in 5 games.

Florida has two key UFAs in Bennett and Ekblad this year and possible goaltending questions.
Bobrovsky has 1 year left and Spencer Knight hasn't exactly took the #1 job from him but still young at 23.

On defense, they likely need help as well in July, a top 4 RD is needed whether Ekblad stays or not, they need two if Ekblad leaves in free agency.

For Toronto, it's mainly goaltending and finding a middle 6 Center that seems to be their biggest worry.
The obvious UFAs for Leafs are Marner and Tavares. Can they afford to lose Marner?

Woll looks promising but seems injury prone. Stolarz has been great but has never been a #1 and both have no playoff experience either.
The Leafs looked even better defensively this year, although their scoring is down from previous years.

So who has the better Cup window for the next 3-4 years? Panthers or Leafs

Panthers:

Florida Panthers | Salary cap and contracts

Leafs:

Toronto Maple Leafs | Salary cap and contracts

Haven't read a word...but if a team has won a Cup in their current window no matter how small the window...it will always be better than the team that hasn't won.

I mean...it's not even close.

 

[SheldonJPlankton]

Apples and Oranges.

Panthers have been to two cups and won one.

Oilers would be a better comparison

Likewise, the Habs would be a better comparison.

 

[StlBigFly]

Lazy. Whining. Uneducated. Bullshit. Floridas owners are loaded and paid everyone’s salaries during Covid, unlike some northern teams. They’ve spent a shit ton building a practice facility near the majority of players’ homes, invested in the community, spent to the cap, and allowed the GM to do his job. Zito spent draft capital, young players, AND cap space building a roster that won the Cup. We also lost the entire 4th line, 2 of our defenders, our Cup winning RW, and are paying our goalies $15 mil.

Players wanted to come here for a host of reasons, but anyone whining about taxes, sure it’s an advantage, but it’s not the ONLY advantage. Leafs and Rangers had decades where they could fork out major money and still only won one Cup between the two of them. Why do you think that is? The Panthers have one of the best locker room environments in the League, they all cheer each other on. It’s not all egos and thinking that adding star players will win them the Cup.

Yeah, it’s an advantage, but people saying it’s THE reason just need excuses as to why their teams’s aren't/haven’t been better. Ownership matters.

Or just cry more. No one gives a f*** if you acknowledge Cup wins, their names are still in it.

You don’t have to take my word for it

You don’t have to take the leagues word for it

You don’t have to assume I’m not lying when I say an active agent told me it’s 8-12% difference in aav.

Ya just gotta pray McDavid’s team or Matthew’s team, poor Winnipeg or the wild can fight through your advantages

The three lowest ratings cup finals are in the past 5 years. Sorry not sorry; we don’t want to watch Dallas versus Florida versus Las Vegas. This period has set the all time low in viewership. The only one that was different included McDavid. We all sat and watched because McDavid is special

If the conference finals are 4 tax free states I Guarantee - full guarantee - this will be the last year this happens. It will set the all time low record.

Here’s how it will end:

The tax free states broke precedents.

Guys like Stamkos are not used as comparables when guys like Stutzle need a new paycheck.

This causes problems. You cannot have 2 sets of comparables accounting in a hard cap league.

This is cap circumvention. It will be punished. Teams will be forced to use prescedent.

Entire teams of “home team discount” damages the NHL brand. There are too many teams that become money pits when they have no chance at competition.

The league -Needs- random sketchy teams to go on runs from time to time. Including yours! Nobody wants to specifically banish you to the bottom of the standings.

The NHL has the highest non labor costs of any major sport while also having the least valuable rights deals - deals that are plummeting in value as Tampa versus Vegas versus Dallas versus Miami repeatedly headline the end of season.

They need to sustain some level of hope in places like Detroit, Minnesota, Calgary, Ottawa, Cali/Nyc teams, etc. If 6 teams monopolize the rewards it will cost the league way more money than if the league has just some semblance of parity.

And now we’re at a stage where most of the high value markets suck. NYC sucks. Much of cali sucks. Go kings I guess. Detroit is bad. Half of Canada is bad. Homie these places pay -your- bills. The Panthers get revenue share. You wonder why no teams congratulated Florida on their cup win during the draft - this is why. Nobody respects it because the playing field is not fair. No asterisks. It simply didn’t happen.

And the argument against the whole situation is simple and fair:

Use precedent to pay players. Nothing else but prescedent. When your next forward is due $ - the other forwards in the league are where his aav comes from. No adjustments are needed. No handouts. You’re simply required to compensate based on others compensation and if you don’t then it’s cap circumvention and loss of draft assets. You’ll no longer get to offer a 8-12% discounted aav to players. If you have a forward that is very highly comparable to Stutzle then the cap % you’re gonna pay must be close to his. You can do whatever you want with the terms of the deal outside of the cap %. Players will still like warm weather and palm trees - your team can remain a destination players love - but this would correct the imbalance of talent across rosters.

 

[miscs75]

The Panthers are by the beach and have suitable weather so them. The only cup window the Leafs have is the Tim Hortons drive thru.

 

[Green]

who has the better cup window the team that won 1 round in 20 years or the team who just won the cup gee I wonder

I'd say the team that hasn't won in a long time since they are going to be hungrier when the time comes

 

[Laus723]

You don’t have to take my word for it

You don’t have to take the leagues word for it

You don’t have to assume I’m not lying when I say an active agent told me it’s 8-12% difference in aav.

Ya just gotta pray McDavid’s team can fight through your advantages

The three lowest ratings cup finals are in the past 5 years. The only one that was different included McDavid. We all sat and watched because McDavid is special

If the conference finals are 4 tax free states I Guarantee - full guarantee - this will be the last year this happens. It will set the all time low record.

Here’s how it will end:

The tax free states broke precedents.

Guys like Stamkos are not used as comparables when guys like Stutzle need a new paycheck.

This is cap circumvention. It will be punished. Teams will be forced to use prescedent.

Entire teams of “home team discount” damages the NHL brand. There are too many teams that become money pits when they have no chance at competition.

The league -Needs- random sketchy teams to go on runs from time to time.

The NHL has the highest non labor costs of any major sport while also having the least valuable rights deals.

They need to sustain some level of hope in places like Detroit, Minnesota, Calgary, Ottawa, Cali/Nyc teams, etc. If 6 teams monopolize the rewards it will cost the league way more money than if the league has just some semblance of parity

And the argument against the whole situation is simple and fair:

Use precedent to pay players. Nothing else but prescedent. When your next forward is due $ - the other forwards in the league are where his aav comes from. No adjustments are needed. No handouts. You’re simply required to compensate based on others compensation and if you don’t then it’s cap circumvention and loss of draft assets.

Lmao, “punished.” Kinda funny you sit and stew over this.

Barkov was locked in long term under $10 mil. Tkachuk came in agreed to less than the best player on the team. Reinhart spent years on awful Buffalo and his overall play went up here in Florida, he took less than both guys. Verhaeghe was finally given the chance to excel here and decided to stay and play with guys he’s excelled with. Lundell still hasn’t hit his full window. Before that, the Panthers had what many thought was the worst contract in hockey with Bob, now suddenly everyone cries about it because we have a smart GM who rebuilt the roster, gave guys a chance in ways they hadn’t with other teams, and paid quite a bit to get others. The “it’s all taxes”morons forget that part, it’s never brought up, which makes the argument a joke. Period. You’re a 200 posts in 12 years HF guy, I’m not taking your word for anything lol. Nor do I take anyone’s word on here when it comes to all the above.

Compare that to Toronto where Dubas overpaid to bring in Tavares, which led to big salaries to Matthews, Marner, and Nylander. He f***ed the team’s salary structure, but…it’s “no taxes.” Dubas didn’t need to bring in Tavares, he could’ve been harder with their other forwards, they’d proven nothing in the playoffs.

Again, it’s an advantage. New York, Toronto, Detroit, and others all had an advantage before the cap and not long after. They could pay to bring guys in, two of them won 1 Cup since ‘67. There’s A LOT that goes into building a winner…but again, cry more.

 

[StlBigFly]

Lmao, “punished.” Kinda funny you sit and stew over this.

Barkov was locked in long term under $10 mil. Tkachuk came in agreed to less than the best player on the team. Reinhart spent years on awful Buffalo and his overall play went up here in Florida, he took less than both guys. Verhaeghe was finally given the chance to excel here and decided to stay and play with guys he’s excelled with. Lundell still hasn’t hit his full window. Before that, the Panthers had what many thought was the worst contract in hockey with Bob, now suddenly everyone cries about it because we have a smart GM who rebuilt the roster, gave guys a chance in ways they hadn’t with other teams, and paid quite a bit to get others. The “it’s all taxes”morons forget that part, it’s never brought up, which makes the argument a joke. Period. You’re a 200 posts in 12 years HF guy, I’m not taking your word for anything lol. Nor do I take anyone’s word on here when it comes to all the above.

Compare that to Toronto where Dubas overpaid to bring in Tavares, which led to big salaries to Matthews, Marner, and Nylander. He f***ed the team’s salary structure, but…it’s “no taxes.” Dubas didn’t need to bring in Tavares, he could’ve been harder with their other forwards, they’d proven nothing in the playoffs.

Again, it’s an advantage. New York, Toronto, Detroit, and others all had an advantage before the cap and not long after. They could pay to bring guys in, two of them won 1 Cup since ‘67. There’s A LOT that goes into building a winner…but again, cry more.

I’ll say hi when the conference finals are 4 no tax teams, the cup finals set all time low viewership, and the league forces a fix.

You can continue to work on practicing insults for a random internet stranger. Knee jerk reaction to dig through somebody’s comment history, call them names, lol.

It’s funny - the owner of the Panthers does this on twitter all the time - can’t make a statement or point during disagreement without hurling insults. Wonder if I found a burner. Either way it’s a low iq play homie.

 

[Gizmo Tkachuk]

You don’t have to take my word for it

You don’t have to take the leagues word for it

You don’t have to assume I’m not lying when I say an active agent told me it’s 8-12% difference in aav.

Ya just gotta pray McDavid’s team or Matthew’s team, poor Winnipeg or the wild can fight through your advantages

The three lowest ratings cup finals are in the past 5 years. Sorry not sorry; we don’t want to watch Dallas versus Florida versus Las Vegas. This period has set the all time low in viewership. The only one that was different included McDavid. We all sat and watched because McDavid is special

If the conference finals are 4 tax free states I Guarantee - full guarantee - this will be the last year this happens. It will set the all time low record.

Here’s how it will end:

The tax free states broke precedents.

Guys like Stamkos are not used as comparables when guys like Stutzle need a new paycheck.

This causes problems. You cannot have 2 sets of comparables accounting in a hard cap league.

This is cap circumvention. It will be punished. Teams will be forced to use prescedent.

Entire teams of “home team discount” damages the NHL brand. There are too many teams that become money pits when they have no chance at competition.

The league -Needs- random sketchy teams to go on runs from time to time.

The NHL has the highest non labor costs of any major sport while also having the least valuable rights deals - deals that are plummeting in value as Tampa versus Vegas versus Dallas versus Miami repeatedly headline the end of season.

They need to sustain some level of hope in places like Detroit, Minnesota, Calgary, Ottawa, Cali/Nyc teams, etc. If 6 teams monopolize the rewards it will cost the league way more money than if the league has just some semblance of parity.

And now we’re at a stage where most of the high value markets suck. NYC sucks. Much of cali sucks. Go kings I guess. Detroit is bad. Half of Canada is bad. Homie these places pay -your- bills. The Panthers get revenue share. You wonder why no teams congratulated Florida on their cup win during the draft - this is why. Nobody respects it.

And the argument against the whole situation is simple and fair:

Use precedent to pay players. Nothing else but prescedent. When your next forward is due $ - the other forwards in the league are where his aav comes from. No adjustments are needed. No handouts. You’re simply required to compensate based on others compensation and if you don’t then it’s cap circumvention and loss of draft assets. You’ll no longer get to offer a 8-12% discounted aav to players. If you have a forward that is very highly comparable to Stutzle then the cap % you’re gonna pay must be close to his. You can do whatever you want with the terms of the deal outside of the cap %. Players will still like warm weather and palm trees - your team can remain a destination players love - but this would correct the imbalance of talent across rosters.

Translation:

 

[Laus723]

I’ll say hi when the conference finals are 4 no tax teams, the cup finals set all time low viewership, and the league forces a fix.

You can continue to work on practicing insults for a random internet stranger. Knee jerk reaction to dig through somebody’s comment history, call them names, lol.

It’s funny - the owner of the Panthers does this on twitter all the time - can’t make a statement or point during disagreement without hurling insults. Wonder if I found a burner. Either way it’s a low iq play homie.

First you carry on about punishment, even though the League has yet to address Stone and Doucherov being out and suddenly healthy for the playoffs, now you’re saying an account that far outdated current ownership is a burner? You just have no idea what you’re talking about do you.

I’ve countered your tax nonsense, you just don’t have an answer. Fact is, lots of teams have different advantages, still takes smarts, money, hard work, and capital to find the right guys. Part of those smarts is knowing when to move on from guys and who to bring in instead. But yeah, all “taxes.”

Punished? Lol

 

[DKH]

Is this a joke ?

The leafs will never see round 2 unless they avoid Boston or Florida even Tampa in round one

Bruins last 16 games since coach change and injuries are 118 point pace ~ good luck thinking they are dead

Florida is loaded offensively and good enough now to coast here and there

Maurice is a HOF coach who’s still got it

Tampa top 6 F as group balanced with multiple game breakers - Coaching & G elite

Leafs are very good especially with a wonky AM but they are probably not better then 50/50 each round and going up against vet lineups

Toronto D looks better and I’m a Woll guy as saw him a lot at BC

There will be 8 -10 teams who can win this

Toronto will have no patsies on any run

 

[StlBigFly]

First you carry on about punishment, even though the League has yet to address Stone and Doucherov being out and suddenly healthy for the playoffs, now you’re saying an account that far outdated current ownership is a burner? You just have no idea what you’re talking about do you.

I’ve countered your tax nonsense, you just don’t have an answer. Fact is, lots of teams have different advantages, still takes smarts, money, hard work, and capital to find the right guys. Part of those smarts is knowing when to move on from guys and who to bring in instead. But yeah, all “taxes.”

Punished? Lol

Yes, it -will- be punished. It’s the only correction that makes sense.

The past won’t be punished. The rules are being followed as is.

The challenge in correcting this situation is that if the league decided to give a cap discount to heavily taxed areas what they’re effectively doing is raising the salary cap. The owners do not want to raise the salary cap. This is a non starter imo.

The best option for the league will be to force the use of prescedent in future contracts.

You’ll be required to gather a dozen comparable skaters and your cap % will have to be close to the average of that dozen.

The ways to avoid this:

Don’t end up having the 6 tax free states occupy 100% of the conference final slots. Kinda unrealistic goal - everybody should try to win at all times and take every legal advantage they can. The problem here is that if this happens at extremes it will force change. Kinda is what it is.

Do things like Vegas does which bring positive and lucrative attention to the league. This is do-able but requires time, effort and money. This could be things like over the top entertainment around game times, aggressive in-market marketing including development of ice rinks, and providing facilities for league wide events that draw in outside interest. Things that will lead to a strong financial future for the specific team but also the league as a whole. Things that don’t have a super fancy short term roi but instead lay a foundation so you could convince others that the future is bright. Hope is a powerful emotion and people like money. There is a balance of giving others hope and making them money where you get what you want no matter the cost.

 

[JianYang]

Panthers already won. Their issues are different. It's about whether they can dig deep and reach the finals for a 3rd year in a row. Its about managing the marathon and it's very hard to do as history has shown.

The leafs issues are about a grossly underachieving core that has one playoff win in the matthews era which also happened to come against a beat up team that also happened to reach the finals 3 years in a row.