Who had the tougher competition for individual awards, Crosby or McDavid?

[yeaher]

Sedins aren't fit too lace Sid's boot, either of them

 

[eviohh26]

Sedins aren't fit too lace Sid's boot, either of them

Back to Back Art Ross.

 

[JKG33]

I completely disagree with this, Ovi and Malkin are great and all time legends in their own right (Ovechkin more so), but they are also flawed players. If somebody wants to say Crosby's peers that's fine, but definitely not easily when you have such insane talent in the NHL currently.

Matthews is literally pacing the same as Ovechkin when it comes to goal scoring and has scored more in a single season than him
Drai/Makar have put up insane playoff run numbers
Kucherov is one of 5 NHL players that have ever gotten 100 assists in a season
Mack has put up the 12th highest individual (non repeat) points season in NHL history

If you want to take Malkin/Ovi over them, that's fine, but it's definitely not clearly so.

Matthews has also played his entire career in a much higher scoring era. He's also missed a lot of time to injuries, so using pace is a much greater benefit to him than most.

Ovi was worlds better than his peers at goal scoring. Matthews has not been nearly as dominant

 

[daver]

If the OP is asking whose trophy wins are more impressive, the answer is neither player's trophy wins need any context. They are all well earned.

 

[yeaher]

Back to Back Art Ross.

Jamie Benn's art ross was more impressive and he's not fit to either. Sidney outpaced both comfortably in their Art Ross seasons as well, Sedins were good players no doubt, but amongst the poorest players to ever win the art ross.

 

[dr robbie]

Crosby, quite easily. The entirety of his career was spent against the greatest goal scorer of all time.

Sure there was a much greater drop off after Ovi and Malkin, where McDavid has a bunch of great players to compete with (Drai, Mac, Kuch, Eichel) none of them are at the level Ovi was

This is kind of my thought as well. It doesn't matter if there are 50 B+ level players in the league or not. It's always been Ovi v. Crosby since day 1 and probably will be until they retire.

Who's McDavid's comparable? I can't personally put Matthews or Kucherov on the same level as Ovi. They are more on the Malkin/Stamkos tier, who Crosby also had to compete with.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Just because others have won Harts and Rosses in Crosby’s time doesn’t mean the competition was more challenging.

Yes, it does.

It reflects a lack of presence of a generational talent during that time span.

No, it reflects the large number of elite but not quite generational talents during that time span.

Only Ovi and Malkin(maybe Kane too) are on the level of Matthews, Kucherov, Mackinnon, and Drai

Wrong.

which is why we’re only discussing them.

Wrong.

McDavid didn’t allow Huberdeau & Giroux to win Art Rosses and I don’t understand how he’s being penalized for this.

He's not being penalized for 'not allowing' Huberdeau and Giroux to win Art Rosses; he's being penalized for the fact that neither of them is good enough to win one.

8 players of that 10 number you listed wouldn’t have won Art Rosses had McDavid played during their time.

Quite possibly the most wrong thing you've said so far. McDavid would have won at most, two Art Rosses had he played the entire stretch from 2010-2017. And yes, this includes the one that he did win in 2017.

Between 1981-2001 only three players won Art Rosses so I guess Crosby’s competition was better than someone who played during Gretzky, Mario, Jagr’s time since 10>3 right?.

Wow, finally something correct, though you seem to have accidentally stumbled upon it. Crosby's competition was absolutely more difficult than the competition between 1981-2001. It was much easier for Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr to win their awards than it was for Crosby to win his.

 

[norrisnick]

Yeah the stars aligned for Crosby during that timeframe with the concussions, misdiagnosed neck issues and wrist injuries that all saw him miss substantial time or negatively affect his play. It’s not hard to see a relatively healthy Crosby sweeping awards here.

I rarely struggle in my daydreams...

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Corey Perry, Daniel Sedin and Jamie Benn were winning trophies during Crosby prime, and not only garbage trophies like Hart- here you can counter your Taylor Hall-but real, performance based trophies...

Moronic. Daniel n perry won their awards in the year crosby was dominating the league. U expect crosby to win while playing 41 gp?

 

[TheLegend27]

Yes, it does.

Your quantity argument only shows that Crosby wasn't a good enough point producer as McDavid, thus allowing multiple players to win it. If McDavid lost to Giroux and Huberdeau in 2018 & 2022 by going pointless in the last 8 games, does his level of competition suddenly increase? according to you, yes. The scenario has completely nothing to do with those two, but they're somehow better now.

No, it reflects the large number of elite but not quite generational talents during that time span.

No, it means Crosby had down years and sank to their level of play. 89-point Art Ross isn't on the level of 144 Kuch, 128-point Kuch, 110-point Drai(71 games).

Wrong.

Please do specify who I am missing. For my sanity, I hope you're not talking about Jamie Benn and Sedins being on Mack and Kuch's level.

He's not being penalized for 'not allowing' Huberdeau and Giroux to win Art Rosses; he's being penalized for the fact that neither of them is good enough to win one.

They aren't good enough to win one directly because of McDavid's level of play, not their ability. Is Benn beating 27-year-old McDavid in 2015? no, then he's not better competition.

Quite possibly the most wrong thing you've said so far. McDavid would have won at most, two Art Rosses had he played the entire stretch from 2010-2017. And yes, this includes the one that he did win in 2017.

Okay, you're not serious. Sophomore McDavid is good enough to win in 2017 but McDavid starting in Crosby's draft year isn't good enough to win more than one in his prime through 2010-2016. Thinking post-2010 Ovi, Malkin, Benn, and Sedins, have a chance against prime 97 is bias.

Wow, finally something correct, though you seem to have accidentally stumbled upon it. Crosby's competition was absolutely more difficult than the competition between 1981-2001. It was much easier for Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr to win their awards than it was for Crosby to win his.

Was it easier for Gretzky in 89? 168 points no Art Ross. How about Jagr 96? 149 points, 29 clear of third place, no Hart or Art Ross. Brett Hull in 91? 86 goals, 16 points clear of third place, no Hart or Ross. show me when Crosby had a historic season and lost out to a generational season from someone else. It's the quality of competition over quantity. It's more difficult winning against Gretzky than Benn; it's more difficult winning against Mack than 8 of the 10 players you brought up.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Your quantity argument only shows that Crosby wasn't a good enough point producer as McDavid,

Of course Crosby wasn't as good a point producer as McDavid; McDavid has it easier by several orders of magnitude right now than Crosby did. And not just because McDavid has easier competition, either.

thus allowing multiple players to win it. If McDavid lost to Giroux and Huberdeau in 2018 & 2022 by going pointless in the last 8 games, does his level of competition suddenly increase?

No, because if it would require him to go pointless for 8 games in order to not win the Art Ross, that itself demonstrates the lack of competition.

Please do specify who I am missing. For my sanity, I hope you're not talking about Jamie Benn and Sedins being on Mack and Kuch's level.

Well, for starters, Patrick Kane is not 'maybe' on their level, he definitely is. Prime Stamkos was also on their level.

They aren't good enough to win one directly because of McDavid's level of play, not their ability. Is Benn beating 27-year-old McDavid in 2015?

Quite possibly, yes.

Okay, you're not serious. Sophomore McDavid is good enough to win in 2017 but McDavid starting in Crosby's draft year isn't good enough to win more than one in his prime through 2010-2016. Thinking post-2010 Ovi, Malkin, Benn, and Sedins, have a chance against prime 97 is bias.

Nope. Underrating Post-2010 Ovi, Malkin, Benn, and Sedins (not to mention, Kane, Stamkos, and St. Louis) to the absurd degree that you're doing so is bias.

Was it easier for Gretzky in 89? 168 points no Art Ross.

Sure was.

How about Jagr 96? 149 points, 29 clear of third place, no Hart or Art Ross.

You're making my argument for me. If Jagr cleared 3rd place by 29 points, that itself demonstrates the lack of competition he faced. An actually competitive Art Ross race would not see such a massive gap between 3rd and 4th.

Brett Hull in 91? 86 goals, 16 points clear of third place, no Hart or Ross.

Sure was.

show me when Crosby had a historic season and lost out to a generational season from someone else.

2013. Crosby put up 1.56 points per game; got injured, missed 12 games and lost the Art Ross to an impressive season by Martin St. Louis.

It's the quality of competition over quantity.

False dichotomy. The quality of competition is inseparable from the quantity of competition.

It's more difficult winning against Gretzky than Benn;

Not if you're Gretzky.

it's more difficult winning against Mack than 8 of the 10 players you brought up.

Wrong.

 

[TheLegend27]

You're making my argument for me. If Jagr cleared 3rd place by 29 points, that itself demonstrates the lack of competition he faced. An actually competitive Art Ross race would not see such a massive gap between 3rd and 4th.

So if the point separation in OHL goes like this:
1. 119pts
2. 118 pts
3. 115 pts
4. 110 pts

and NHL 1989:
1. Mario 161
2. Jagr 149
3. Sakic 120
4. Francis 119
5. Forsberg 116

By your logic, the 2nd place guy in OHL had better competition than Jagr. After all, his degree of separation is only 3 points. can you see how laughable that is? You have to factor in the level of play and degree of difficulty to win when measuring competition. A higher level of play needed to win = tougher competition.

McDavid directly lost out to better seasons from the competition( 2019, Kuch, 2020 Drai, 2024 Mack, 2024 Kuch) than Crosby( 2016 Kane). You're punishing Jagr for being so good he smoked third place by 29 points.

Sure was.

based on my example prior, it was harder for Gretzky to win in 1989 than it was for Crosby in any period of his career because the level of play needed to beat Mario was higher than the level of play needed to beat Benn, Kane(or anyone Crosby lost out to). My entire argument is that Drai, Kuch, and Mack are more consistent point producers than post-2010 Ovi, Malkin(who rarely played past 70 games), or other point producers Crosby faced.

 

[TheLegend27]

Nope. Underrating Post-2010 Ovi, Malkin, Benn, and Sedins (not to mention, Kane, Stamkos, and St. Louis) to the absurd degree that you're doing so is bias.

Crosby lost out to Kane once, stamkos zero times, and Malkin, and Ovi once too. none of these players finished second when Crosby won. How is that competition?.

 

[Dessloch]

I was expecting a landslide win in this thread for McDavid had more contention... can't believe anybody voted otherwise...outside of Ovi and Malkin there was not much.

In 2005-2006 Crosby and Ovechkin went up against past prime Jaromir Jagr and lost conclusively in both points and goals scored in the regular season + playoffs. (Jagr led playoff scoring after 2nd rounds)

Are you saying Jagr whos 2nd in all time NHL points and the only player winning an Art Ross Trophy outside Lemieux and Gretzky from 1980 to 2001 is not much?^^

Its kind of crazy we are 4 pages in and nobody has given Crosby/Ovechkin credit for going up against Jagr!

 

[BertMcDrai]

In 2005-2006 Crosby and Ovechkin went up against past prime Jaromir Jagr and lost conclusively in both points and goals scored in the regular season + playoffs. (Jagr led playoff scoring after 2nd rounds)

Are you saying Jagr whos 2nd in all time NHL points and the only player winning an Art Ross Trophy outside Lemieux and Gretzky from 1980 to 2001 is not much?^^

Its kind of crazy we are 4 pages in and nobody has given Crosby/Ovechkin credit for going up against Jagr!

Exactly...you are supporting my argument...they lost against a past prime player while McD didn't lose the a past prime Crosby and this while Crosby was much closer or at the end of his prime when McD joined the league.

Jagr was 34 in 2006 and won over Crosby...and Crosby was 27 when McD joined the league and he never beat him out while being in his later prime years.

That says that McD competition is much better, he only lost to players around his age and has still to beat out prime Crosby/Malkin/Ovi.

 

[daver]

In 2005-2006 Crosby and Ovechkin went up against past prime Jaromir Jagr and lost conclusively in both points and goals scored in the regular season + playoffs. (Jagr led playoff scoring after 2nd rounds)

Not a great example as they were both rookies. Crosby was as good as Jagr and Thornton were the very next season and OV was better than them in 07/08.

 

[Dessloch]

Not a great example as they were both rookies. Crosby was as good as Jagr and Thornton were the very next season and OV was better than them in 07/08.

In 2006-2007 Crosby still had less points and goals than a past prime Jagr had in 2005-2006. A prime Jagr would have had around 150 points in 2005-2006 easily.

My overall points though was that Jagr should be included with Ovechkin and Malkin in the players Crosby faced. Would have been even more challenging if Jagr had not blown out his shoulder and thus barely could take slapshots the last 2 seasons before leaving for KHL! The shoulder injury was the main reason Jagrs production took such a steep dive.

 

[Dessloch]

Exactly...you are supporting my argument...they lost against a past prime player while McD didn't lose the a past prime Crosby and this while Crosby was much closer or at the end of his prime when McD joined the league.

Jagr was 34 in 2006 and won over Crosby...and Crosby was 27 when McD joined the league and he never beat him out while being in his later prime years.

That says that McD competition is much better, he only lost to players around his age and has still to beat out prime Crosby/Malkin/Ovi.

I only questioned why you and nobody else mentions that Crosby and Ovechkin went up against Jagr who broke the New York Rangers goal scoring and point record competing against them. Jagr should be in the list of the players Crosby faced after Ovechkin and Malkin.

Of course prime Jagr would have had 150-160 points in 2005-2006, so Jagr is a step above Ovechkin and Crosby by all indications!

Ovechkin could not even match or surpass Jagrs 2005-2006 season in his prime years, so Jagr past prime beat Ovechkin in his prime even as Jagr had a worse supporting cast than Ovi.

 

[daver]

In 2006-2007 Crosby still had less points and goals than a past prime Jagr had in 2005-2006. A prime Jagr would have had around 150 points in 2005-2006 easily.

Crosby actually had the better PPG and scoring was a bit down from 05/06 but regardless, the strength of his season was on par with Jagr/Thornton. Goal totals are irrelevant for the OP's question.

Using terms like "prime" and post prime" are meaningless as every player has ebbs and flows to their career. That season by Jagr was as good as some of his Art Ross winning seasons. A peak Jagr hits 130/135 in the 06/07 season. Same with a peak McDavid and same with a peak Crosby; they all dominated the field in a similar fashion.

 

[Dessloch]

Crosby actually had the better PPG and scoring was a bit down from 05/06 but regardless, the strength of his season was on par with Jagr/Thornton. Goal totals are irrelevant for the OP's question.

Using terms like "prime" and post prime" are meaningless as every player has ebbs and flows to their career. That season by Jagr was as good as some of his Art Ross winning seasons. A peak Jagr hits 130/135 in the 06/07 season. Same with a peak McDavid and same with a peak Crosby; they all dominated the field in a similar fashion.

Jaromir Jagr was nowhere near as dominant at age 33-34 as he was in his 21-29 age for example. I dont think any players are better at age 33-34 than at 21 to 29. Its just a result of when human beings are in their physical prime years!

 

[Stephen]

In Crosby’s era, he had Ovechkin as a clear foe standing head and shoulders above everyone else, maybe toss in a little Malkin action, and some overlap with the previous generation and the next generation, but McDavid’s competition is more diffuse and numerous within the same age group.

 

[daver]

Jaromir Jagr was nowhere near as dominant at age 33-34 as he was in his 21-29 age for example. I dont think any players are better at age 33-34 than at 21 to 29. Its just a result of when human beings are in their physical prime years!

Relative to the league, he was as good in that season as he was in some of his prime seasons. It was a bounce back season for him after a few mediocre ones. He took a big jump down the next season but he was that good that he was capable of having an elite season at an age where most players have regressed.

Anyways, this has nothing to do with the OP as Crosby did not have to compete with Jagr for trophies.

 

[dr robbie]

Matthews is literally pacing the same as Ovechkin when it comes to goal scoring and has scored more in a single season than him

I wonder if that's true when we compare it to league averages? Comparing raw numbers won't give the same picture as the scoring environments are different.

I believe much of Crosby's era was in the 2.6/2.7 goals per game range while we are now in the 2.9/3.1 range (someone can fact check me if they know more about this). Obviously scoring is up across the board, so raw numbers will also be up in general.

 

[Dessloch]

Relative to the league, he was as good in that season as he was in some of his prime seasons. It was a bounce back season for him after a few mediocre ones. He took a big jump down the next season but he was that good that he was capable of having an elite season at an age where most players have regressed.

Anyways, this has nothing to do with the OP as Crosby did not have to compete with Jagr for trophies.

BS. Crosby was not good enough in 2005-06 to compete with Jagr for trophies. So its not true that he did not have to compete with Jagr for trophies. He also beat a lesser version of Jagr post-shoulder surgery 2 seasons before Jagr left for the KHL, so he did face Jagr, even if it was not prime Jagr.

 

[um]

Crosby bare mimimum has 4 right now with no injuries. Every sane person knows 11 n 13 were locks. In 2008 he was tied for the lead with 63 points in 45 games and was 6 points up on ovechkin the eventual winner. If healthy all year he likely wins. 2012. 24 year old peak crosby would have given malkin serious trouble. Do ill leave it at 4 art ross and good chance at 6.

Crosby was 31st in scoring and 38 points behind the leader. That's not exactly a lock.

13 is reasonable. 08, 11, 12 is just your fantasy.

We've seen Crosby in full seasons, it doesn't match your fantasy.